Red Keyhole Nib In A Number 2 Size?

[Addertooth]

While scouring through E-Bay, I found an interesting Nib. It was encrusted with ink and does not have a great photograph. You really have to look at the zoomed image of the nib to make out the word "RED" at the top. It appears to be a Red Keyhole nib in a Number 2 size. I was told (color) keyholes in a number two nib are uncommon. I was able to scale the image (and get a relative size of the nib) because the dimensions of the base are given by the seller (base is 10 inches wide). It helps because the pen pictured is of the same size as another Waterman Desk Pen I have, which allowed me to match the size to a number 2 nib on my other pen.

 

The seller initially had a princely price for the desk set, but dropped it significantly after no interest was shown for a few days. The seller sent out a notification they had dropped the price to about 1/3 of the original price, and negotiated even lower through an offer. The Pen the nib was found in was part of a figural Desk Set with a bronze German shepherd. The plate on the marble slab looks like it was not engraved. There is some significant browning of the Hard Rubber, but perhaps some pen potion will fix that right up.

 

I have searched for other examples of #2 "color" keyhole nibs online, but have come up short. I have only found text mentions of such a thing. Perhaps the pros can chime in and fill in some of my knowledge gaps. I will even be happy to hear wild guesses from other people. Perhaps hints and suggestions where you have heard of such a nib.

 

 

Waterman RED Keyhole number 2 nib

Looking down 45 degree dog left pen right

Edited August 9, 2019 by Addertooth

[IlyaKovic]

I am not super sure but my first guess would be that it is a #5 sized keyhole nib. The #7 keyhole was actually a rebranded #5 nib, and the #5 was closer in size to a #2. As far as I know. I could be wrong but if the sizing is similar that would be my first guess. Am I to understand you bought this set? Do you have it in your possession yet?

[Addertooth]

I do not have it on hand yet. It will probably be here in a week or two. I have another Waterman desk set, and the nib size on the one I just got scales identically to my verified (flexy) number 2 nib on my other pen. When it gets here, it will get a thorough rebuild and ultrasonic cleaning of the feed and nib, if there is a 5 on the nib, it will get discovered.

 

Comparison picture of other desk pen, not ratio of nib size to section size. This pen has a verified number 2 nib. Picture is from before the rebuild.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Addertooth

[sidthecat]

That slice of marble is special, too...from a particular quarry in China. Costs the earth, otherwise I’d have it in my guest bathroom.

[shalitha33]

I don't know much about Waterman nibs Would be interesting to see the nib once you have it out for cleaning. Waterman 52 section can take both #2 and #4 nibs and sort of can take the #5. Catalogs that i read so far only mentions #5 and #7 but then again i have only seen few catalogs. By looking at whats visible on the nib imprint i am guessing it doesn't have a number printed on it (made in .. line is half visible)

 

 

Also do you happen to know the model number of your holder ? would be interesting to hunt for it on the desk set catalogs

 

 

 

[Addertooth]

I looked for a model number in the pictures, but could not find one. The slab is 10 by 6 inches.

[Addertooth]

Well, I understand why I couldn't find the number on the nib in the pictures. It has none. None at all.

I looked on the underside to see if there were any additional stampings, but it was smooth as a baby's butt.

 

Below, picture of the (mostly) cleaned nib. The length overall is 31mm or roughly 1.22 inches. The nib is 7mm wide at the shoulders.

This appears to match up with what is common for a number 5 nib.

 

So I guess the mystery is solved, it is a number 5 RED keyhole nib. It seems to have decent flex to it.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Addertooth

[Z-Tab]

The numbering system breaks down once Waterman introduces the Color Series. Prior (and after) #2 and #5 referred to nibs that would fit the 52 and 55 (for instance), respectively. The 55 and the 7 are the same size (further confused by uncommon #7 nibs that went with the substantially larger 17) and the 55 and 7 use nibs that are virtually identical, apart from the imprint. Along with the more commonly seen 7, Waterman released the Waterman 5, which came with Color-imprinted nibs that would have matched the earlier #2 size. So a nib from a 5 is not a #5-size nib... Later, with the celluloid "Ink-Vue" line, there are some produced that have Color-imprinted nibs, but relatively fewer. Among these are Color-imprinted nibs that are about #4-size (based on the old convention, these would match to a 54).

 

I think some later Color nibs have the color and a number on them AND some nibs that are #5-size are marked with #7... which makes them technically #7-size...

 

By this point, Waterman's international branches were introducing their own variations and things get even less standardized and predictable, with no shortage of offerings that make definitive statements about Waterman model and part numbers impossible. It's worth remembering that the confusion comes from seeing these pens as a group, when 30-40 years might have passed between one model and it's totally incompatible "namesake."

 

So... as far as I know, keyhole color nibs exist in #2 (Waterman 5, Lady Patricia, Small Ink-Vue), #4 (Large Ink-Vue), and #5 size (Waterman 7), with a variety of markings.

[Addertooth]

Z-Tab,

 

That is a lot of information to digest. This nib was on a pen which was not marked to it's model, but the sets of this family were from the late 1920s. The nib has no size designation, but If I understand you correctly, both the number 7s and the original number 5s were the same size in actuality.

[Z-Tab]

The Waterman 5 had #2-size Color nibs. (answering the question of whether there were #2-size color nibs)

 

Yours looks to be a #5-size nib, which would fit a Waterman 7 (the most common version of the Color-band pens). Some Waterman 7 nibs were marked with a 7, but the size was not different from the unmarked #5-size nibs.

 

This stuff really only matters if you need to replace a broken part or you're trying to do a nib swap.

[Addertooth]

I am actually considering a nib swap. Most people who would collect or buy a desk set, are people who want the ornateness of the desk set. It is almost a shame to leave a red keyhole in an especially ornate desk set, as figural desk sets tend to be undervalued at this point in time. I can not predict whether this trend will ever end. The red keyhole nib adds some value to this desk set (if it were sold), but not nearly as much as if it were used to replace a stiffer nib in another (non-deskset) pen.

 

The trumpet, nameplate and 4 inch tall figurine on this set are all solid Bronze, as versus the more typically seen brass on many desk sets. Its marble has somehow avoided notable chips over the past 90 years, fairly uncommon in that sense. The matching letter opener is a nice touch. On the flip side, using comparative eBay prices, the nib itself seems to be about a 75 to 100 dollar nib (some people are stupid-proud of keyhole nibs). I would bet someone who hits pen shows could get a red keyhole nib for a lower price. It also seems that pens which hold a red keyhole nib, demand a premium price (if they are not desk set pens).

 

No decisions have been made yet, I am just evaluating options at this point. Perhaps there is someone out there with an artful bent, who would enjoy having an ornate platform to work with his/her artful flex drawings and calligraphy.

[Addertooth]

Well, the pen is almost up and running. The pen arrived with the lever box broken, and it took a bit for me to run down the same size in the original nickel finish. I hear that lever boxes are easy to replace (if you have the right tool). Sadly, this was not the case for me... Jeweler's screwdrivers and a steel rod did the trick, although with a bit of fiddling. We wont even get into the removal of the Bar, with various crud in the tracks the lever fork rides in. The second issue was the India ink which was on the feed and nib, that stuff bonds to gold better than superglue. It should be ready to try tomorrow, sporting a fresh sac. It is almost funny how pristine the rest of the desk set was, considering the challenges with the pen itself.

 

I can't wait to see how this red keyhole performs.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Addertooth

[sidthecat]

The Red nibs seem to vary a lot in their flex: they seem to go from semiflex to fabulously-near-wet-noodle flex, depending.

[Addertooth]

Agreed, there is a lot of variation in behavior in the nibs.