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Nibs Sold For Their Gold


84 replies to this topic

#21 PaulS

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 20:48

this shows how very subjective we can be and prejudiced in favour of our own interests - but that's just our human nature shining forth :D 



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#22 sidthecat

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 22:44

I'm reminded of all the Aztec treasures the Spanish melted down into gold bars...we only have a handful of those beautiful objects now, and they're beyond price.



#23 essayfaire

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 01:42

Sad sight to see a large pile of (mostly) fountain pen nibs sold for their scrap gold price.

 

This pile of nibs was sold for over GBP1200 for 58 gms weight.

 

 

 

Reminds me of when I've seen people cut out the insides of old books to use them as a craft project.  Sad.


Festina lente


#24 Freddy

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 22:45

Thank you all..learnin' bout Au nibs...

   Fred

Nobody made any progress sleeping....Merton Kibble aka Red Skelton

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isn't there a game of chess   It's better to do this

than to idle.........................................................

 

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#25 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 12:58

A decade or so ago, when I was still after 40 years, a One Man, One Pen fella, I'd wondered what the fuss was all about.

Would have thought of course when gold first hit $800 in the '80's.....why not, fountain pens were nothing but obsolete things....worthless if not silver like my P-75.

(I almost sold a $250 pen for E5,00....in my ignorance. And would have been quite happy getting E5.00 for a pretty, obsolete fountain pen.........didn't even have a gold nib........what did I know about maxi-semi-flex nibs....the term hadn't been invented yet.)

 

Ignorance can be cured if one wishes.....very easy today.....if one knows one is ignorant and has a computer. If one don't know or care; then ignorance is bliss.

But the seller was not a '80's pre-net ignorant gold seller. Who ever he was, he knowingly left a forest blow-down wake of destroyed fountain pens.

A drunken barbarian at least supply's jobs.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 10 August 2019 - 13:02.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

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#26 inkstainedruth

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 22:10

Reminds me of when I've seen people cut out the insides of old books to use them as a craft project.  Sad.

 

A number of years ago I ran across a vendor of scraps of medieval books and manuscripts.  I bought a couple because I liked the idea of having something that had been around since the 13th Century, and they were way less than I would have expected (the two fragments cost me around $50 US at the time, which was probably about 20 years or so ago.  But a friend of mine who ran a used bookstore at the time was completely appalled by the concept.

Several years ago there was a thread similar to this one and I remember someone pointing out that the intact pen would have been *way* more valuable to a collector than the amount of money that the tiny bit of gold that a seller would have gotten.

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#27 essayfaire

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 21:43

 

A number of years ago I ran across a vendor of scraps of medieval books and manuscripts.  I bought a couple because I liked the idea of having something that had been around since the 13th Century, and they were way less than I would have expected (the two fragments cost me around $50 US at the time, which was probably about 20 years or so ago.  But a friend of mine who ran a used bookstore at the time was completely appalled by the concept.

Several years ago there was a thread similar to this one and I remember someone pointing out that the intact pen would have been *way* more valuable to a collector than the amount of money that the tiny bit of gold that a seller would have gotten.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I believe there was a scandal ten or so years ago where someone was found to have been cutting pages out of medieval books in the Vatican and selling them on the black market.  I suppose the question is: by buying pieces (pages, nibs, etc.) are you increasing demand for pieces (as opposed to whole goods) or are you just salvaging parts of something that was already destroyed or would be.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that these forums start out talking about pens and quickly veer off into philosophy.


Festina lente


#28 Beechwood

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 03:17

I believe there was a scandal ten or so years ago where someone was found to have been cutting pages out of medieval books in the Vatican and selling them on the black market.  I suppose the question is: by buying pieces (pages, nibs, etc.) are you increasing demand for pieces (as opposed to whole goods) or are you just salvaging parts of something that was already destroyed or would be.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that these forums start out talking about pens and quickly veer off into philosophy.

 

 

The issue for me was that melting down of these nibs was a great waste, the nibs could have been put to better use than turned into gold ingots.

 

I take your point on forums veering towards philosophy, perhaps this is human nature, if you have been following this thread you may be aware that some argumentative /goading posts have been removed, quite correctly.

 

I would suggest that the original purpose of this thread, showing a large sale of nibs being sold for their scrap value, has served its purpose and thanks to all who have submitted their opinions on that subject.


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#29 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 09:22

Dutchpen, there are good semi-flex  or regular flex Warranted nibs. Might even be some flexi ones.

Do separate them out...do a thumbnail test. Those are worth more than scrap price for nail nibs.

Do remember some folks do want nail nibs, so offer them as 14 K nail nibs....proper marketing will do wonders...could find sellers if you split into flex ratings.

 

I have a very nice Warranted semi-flex nib. (Have to admit I didn't chase Warranted nibs....but there are few in Germany..........where we had Osmia/Degussa, Rupp and Bock making nibs for no name pens.

 

Warranted meant it was truely 14 k gold. It depends on the alloy to it's flex rate. That could also be what era.

 

When I was a 'noobie' I so fell into the myth that only In-House nibs were any good. Luckily a nib don't take up any place....but I had my hand over the trash can with a Degussa and a Bock nib in my hand :headsmack: :doh: .....in those cases the steel nibs are as good writing as gold.

 

 

There are old Waterman pens with Warranted nibs. If I remember correctly that were well liked.

 

Do put the gold scrap worth when selling so folks who don't follow the price of gold will know you are not ripping them off.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#30 A Smug Dill

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 10:19



The issue for me was that melting down of these nibs was a great waste, the nibs could have been put to better use than turned into gold ingots.

 

Would that have yielded a subjectively (from his/her perspective) better outcome for the incumbent/previous owner of the nibs who decided to sell it? Anyone could put himself/herself as the next prospective owner who knows how best to not 'waste' those nibs by outbidding other buyers in order to gain control of what he/she thinks is a scarce and valuable resource.

 

The goal is not to make everyone in the world (or even just the fountain pen user community) share the same values. We all love to acquire and/or use fountain pens for different reasons, all of which 'deserve' equal respect however much one may personally disagree with them. Let he/she who is most willing to take the risk and/or wear the cost take control in each given instance, and the individual who is relinquishing control of the artefacts do so willingly having had his/her minimum conditions met.


As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#31 Beechwood

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 10:49

 

Would that have yielded a subjectively (from his/her perspective) better outcome for the incumbent/previous owner of the nibs who decided to sell it? Anyone could put himself/herself as the next prospective owner who knows how best to not 'waste' those nibs by outbidding other buyers in order to gain control of what he/she thinks is a scarce and valuable resource.

 

The goal is not to make everyone in the world (or even just the fountain pen user community) share the same values. We all love to acquire and/or use fountain pens for different reasons, all of which 'deserve' equal respect however much one may personally disagree with them. Let he/she who is most willing to take the risk and/or wear the cost take control in each given instance, and the individual who is relinquishing control of the artefacts do so willingly having had his/her minimum conditions met.

 

 

Apologies in advance but I don't see the point in answering goading/trolling posts such as this, they are neither relevant or interesting but thank you for your contribution, I just question your motives.


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#32 A Smug Dill

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 10:58

I just question your motives.

Every owner of fountain pens and every member of the global community of fountain pen users is entitled to make decisions and take actions to serve their personal objectives first and foremost, without relinquishing 'membership' of the community. Either support everyone regardless of whether they value 'flex' or value recouping their investment, or just state our individual preferences and priorities while accepting that everyone else ought to do what they see is best, as equals in the community. That's always been the point; nobody's values are more deserving to be upheld than any other fountain pen user's or hobbyist's.

The person who wants to get money in exchange for the fountain pens, nibs and paraphernalia they hold in their rightful possession, without a care of what happens to those items once sold, is equally as deserving of consideration and respect as anyone else in this community who value history, 'culture', 'flex' or what-not.

My motivation as a fountain pen enthusiast is to drive up availability and uptake of fountain pens, inks, etc. in today's market, without caring whether the trend is for 'flex' or 'nail', 'vintage' or modern. The masses of consumers can decide what is valued and what is deprecated, as long as they buy and use fountain pens.

The sort of attitude exhibited by some self-styled evangelists of whatever happens to be the common hobby and/or interests between me and them just annoys no end. It's not the place of the values and priorities of the previous 'generation' of fountain pen owners and hobbyists (without regard to their chronological age) to dictate what the present 'generation' do with what was made yesteryear. With and because of 'due respect', it's not up to one faction or section of the present 'generation' to presume to impose on another what is the 'right' way of keeping the community and the hobby going today and tomorrow, so that there'll be a next 'generation' of hobbyists to come, who may just decide in their own good time to throw out what we -- the present 'generation' -- hold dear today, and reshape the face of the hobby however they like with no regard in retrospect for our views and preferences.

We are not 'joined' by shared values and goals, but just common interest in ownership and use of fountain pens and paraphernalia, that we individually have our reasons to want to see survive and flourish. I'm very passionate about it, but it's not about holding my personal preferences (or anyone else's) in pens and such sacred at all.

Edited by A Smug Dill, 13 August 2019 - 14:00.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#33 Parkette

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 16:42

Losing the will to live. Thats 1 minute 18seconds I will never get back.



#34 JonSzanto

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:01

Every owner of fountain pens and every member of the global community of fountain pen users is entitled to make decisions and take actions to serve their personal objectives first and foremost, without relinquishing 'membership' of the community.

 

Me me me me me me me. Screw everyone else. Got it.

At some point, the preservation of a valued and finite resource is more important than individual motivations. The objection to a rampant discarding of these items is wholly warranted.
 


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#35 essayfaire

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 19:35

 

Me me me me me me me. Screw everyone else. Got it.

At some point, the preservation of a valued and finite resource is more important than individual motivations. The objection to a rampant discarding of these items is wholly warranted.
 

Asmugdill and you are proving my point about philosophy!  Not that that is a bad thing. ;)

 

Your positions are not mutually exclusive: one can be disturbed that nibs were melted down while in no way questioning the right and/or values of those who have parted with their pens and nibs and sold them to metal traders.  Melancholy arises from how events interact with our values and need not depend on someone else sharing those values.


Festina lente


#36 JonSzanto

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 19:43

Your positions are not mutually exclusive: one can be disturbed that nibs were melted down while in no way questioning the right and/or values of those who have parted with their pens and nibs and sold them to metal traders.  Melancholy arises from how events interact with our values and need not depend on someone else sharing those values.

 

That is absurd. One might as well attach melancholy to the extinction of a species of living creature, as well. It was fairly clear to see that among the nibs in that picture was a Sheaffer Triumph music nib - already a very rare item, and one not duplicated anywhere. To think of the sheer hubris or stupidity in throwing that into a pile of nibs to be melted down is repugnant. Anyone who did that, even if out of sheer ignorance, is no different to someone who willfully would deplete any other scarce resource.

If you place any value on writing instrument history and the intrinsic worth of these objects, it is indefensable to look past this kind of ignorant and greedy behavior.


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#37 Freddy

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:25

 

That is absurd. One might as well attach melancholy to the extinction of a species of living creature, as well. It was fairly clear to see that among the nibs in that picture was a Sheaffer Triumph music nib - already a very rare item, and one not duplicated anywhere. To think of the sheer hubris or stupidity in throwing that into a pile of nibs to be melted down is repugnant. Anyone who did that, even if out of sheer ignorance, is no different to someone who willfully would deplete any other scarce resource.

If you place any value on writing instrument history and the intrinsic worth of these objects, it is indefensable to look past this kind of ignorant and greedy behavior.

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#38 txomsy

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:36

OK, guys. Let us look at this from a different perspective.

 

What if, instead of nibs, it was the mask of Tut-Ankh-Amon, or the Library of Alexandria?

 

I don't see much of a difference.

 

And yet another:

 

What if instead of selling antique items, we sold our memory, i.e. we got a bunch of money in exchange for a complete amnesia?

 

Both points, actually are the same if you think of them.


Edited by txomsy, 14 August 2019 - 06:38.


#39 txomsy

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:18

In the context of the Great Game, it doesn't mean a iota (or an epsilon). The Universe, Life, and Everything (pun intended) will continue irrespective of anything we do. So, yes, all this discussion is moot and pointless.

 

Subjectively, we are "living things". We are here because we survived our competitors. We survived the dinosaurs. We survived other populations. We strive to survive.

 

We didn't care much about fossils when we were rat- or lemming-like. But at some point, at least a million years ago, we started to care about memory and passing around what we had learnt to our community and offspring. Some 100.000 years ago, at least, we started carving marks on bones, and since that was hard work, it probably means we had been doing marks and sketches on the floor or non-preserving surfaces before that, and for some reason we decided we needed a surface that lasted longer. At least 50.000 years ago, we were painting in cave walls. About 10.000 years ago we invented writing. And here we are on FPN.

 

So the question is, how much knowledge do we now need to survive? and how much of it do we need to preserve?

 

Learning from our mistakes may give us a competitive edge. Learning from others' mistakes should be even better (they pay for the cost of learning and we get it for free).

 

Iff we accept that premise, then we may certainly learn what worked or not for us. It would be even better if we knew what worked or didn't for others, not just our parents, but our parent's parents, and so on... That would teach us which strategies did or did not work. Of course, if we don't get full details we may misinterpret the teachings. And, if you want to gain an edge, you may want to avoid others learning as much as you. Still, you would want to keep something for your kids (or maybe not).

 

Iff we accept that premise, then we should expect that preserving ancient knowledge, ancient artefacts, would be good for our egotistic, interested, selfish survival. And that destroying them will make us misinterpret the signals and take the wrong track, which would be against our interest.

 

Iff we accept that premise, then, losing the Library of Alexandria, threw us in the Dark Ages. Losing old nibs, art pieces, neolithic pottery, fossils, etc... is a catastrophe leading to future tragedy.

 

Iff we accept that premise, then, it is fully justified to feel alarmed by someone needlessly destroying our heritage.

 

This said, the Library of Alexandria was burnt down, we lost ancient wisdom, entered the Dark Ages, and, yet, here we are. Ancient Egypt tombs have been sacked and sold for their weight worth, and yet, here we are. Etc. Still, they were. Someone thought they were worthless. Or hated being tied to self-perpetuating past mistakes and wanted to destroy any trace of them (whether that was a wise move, is open to argument).

 

We may argue that had they known their real value, they could have got orders of magnitude more benefit than the bread crumbs they probably got instead. We can feel sorry that they were ignorant of what they were doing, the damage and the benefit (money, social growth) they unwittingly (or not) lost. We may also argue that in modern, Internet times, anyone with a minimum interest has it very easy to discover the actual value of things. Or can put them up for auction on eBay and try to get the most. Even so, the Library of Alexandria was burnt down. There will always be someone who will consider it worthless.

 

The rest of the post would have been politics and/or religion, so I'll leave it out. Suffice it to say, that even if feeling alarmed may be fully justified, Life and the Universe (better or worse) will still go on, so, may be it is not. Only Time (in a few million years) can tell.

 

NOTE: the 'iff' is fully intended as such.


Edited by txomsy, 14 August 2019 - 07:28.


#40 salmasry

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:01

In the context of the Great Game, it doesn't mean a iota (or an epsilon). The Universe, Life, and Everything (pun intended) will continue irrespective of anything we do. So, yes, all this discussion is moot and pointless.

 

Subjectively, we are "living things". We are here because we survived our competitors. We survived the dinosaurs. We survived other populations. We strive to survive.

 

We didn't care much about fossils when we were rat- or lemming-like. But at some point, at least a million years ago, we started to care about memory and passing around what we had learnt to our community and offspring. Some 100.000 years ago, at least, we started carving marks on bones, and since that was hard work, it probably means we had been doing marks and sketches on the floor or non-preserving surfaces before that, and for some reason we decided we needed a surface that lasted longer. At least 50.000 years ago, we were painting in cave walls. About 10.000 years ago we invented writing. And here we are on FPN.

 

So the question is, how much knowledge do we now need to survive? and how much of it do we need to preserve?

 

Learning from our mistakes may give us a competitive edge. Learning from others' mistakes should be even better (they pay for the cost of learning and we get it for free).

 

Iff we accept that premise, then we may certainly learn what worked or not for us. It would be even better if we knew what worked or didn't for others, not just our parents, but our parent's parents, and so on... That would teach us which strategies did or did not work. Of course, if we don't get full details we may misinterpret the teachings. And, if you want to gain an edge, you may want to avoid others learning as much as you. Still, you would want to keep something for your kids (or maybe not).

 

Iff we accept that premise, then we should expect that preserving ancient knowledge, ancient artefacts, would be good for our egotistic, interested, selfish survival. And that destroying them will make us misinterpret the signals and take the wrong track, which would be against our interest.

 

Iff we accept that premise, then, losing the Library of Alexandria, threw us in the Dark Ages. Losing old nibs, art pieces, neolithic pottery, fossils, etc... is a catastrophe leading to future tragedy.

 

Iff we accept that premise, then, it is fully justified to feel alarmed by someone needlessly destroying our heritage.

 

This said, the Library of Alexandria was burnt down, we lost ancient wisdom, entered the Dark Ages, and, yet, here we are. Ancient Egypt tombs have been sacked and sold for their weight worth, and yet, here we are. Etc. Still, they were. Someone thought they were worthless. Or hated being tied to self-perpetuating past mistakes and wanted to destroy any trace of them (whether that was a wise move, is open to argument).

 

We may argue that had they known their real value, they could have got orders of magnitude more benefit than the bread crumbs they probably got instead. We can feel sorry that they were ignorant of what they were doing, the damage and the benefit (money, social growth) they unwittingly (or not) lost. We may also argue that in modern, Internet times, anyone with a minimum interest has it very easy to discover the actual value of things. Or can put them up for auction on eBay and try to get the most. Even so, the Library of Alexandria was burnt down. There will always be someone who will consider it worthless.

 

The rest of the post would have been politics and/or religion, so I'll leave it out. Suffice it to say, that even if feeling alarmed may be fully justified, Life and the Universe (better or worse) will still go on, so, may be it is not. Only Time (in a few million years) can tell.

 

NOTE: the 'iff' is fully intended as such.

 

 

I do not know about the rest of the  folks here,    but I do read, enjoy and learn from  these  great posts :)

 

We and the world at large, need more  wise people like the Good Doctor here.    :thumbup:





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