Does Legal Lapis Xerox okay?

[heidi]

I need another ink like I need a hole in the head, however to justify another bottle, I wondered if Noodler's Legal Lapis copied okay in a xerox-like machine? I assume it does, but I didn't want to go and buy it, and have our hospital's legal department give me a lot of grief for using an ink that's "illegal" [b/c it doesn't xerox?! but I digress].

 

Anyway, you lawyers out there probably wouldn't use it, if it didn't xerox well, but I figured I should formally ask.

 

So, what's the word? yay or nay, on xeroxability?

 

 

[tfwall]

Yes, it xeroxes fine. Though like yours, my work frowns heavily on the use of anything but black. So, I don't get to use it much.

[BillTheEditor]

Legal Lapis shows up just fine on copies. Modern copiers have no trouble with most shades of blue. If the hospital is still using a 1980's era copier, shame on them.

 

My attorney, and the attorneys who handle my relatives' estates, insist that I sign documents in blue. That way, if they get copied on a non-color copier, it is easy to tell the original from the copy. They would not do that if there were any kind of a legal issue.

 

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.

Edited June 26, 2007 by BillTheEditor

[tfwall]

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.

 

I can assure you that practice is alive and well in the U.S. Govt. Shame on the person who can't produce a black ballpoint on demand in any federal building. Some upper level types use blue or another "exotic" colour for their own notes, but wouldn't be caught dead signing with anything but a black biro.

[BillTheEditor]

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.

 

I can assure you that practice is alive and well in the U.S. Govt. Shame on the person who can't produce a black ballpoint on demand in any federal building. Some upper level types use blue or another "exotic" colour for their own notes, but wouldn't be caught dead signing with anything but a black biro.

I stand corrected. Thanks (on behalf of all those who would otherwise have been misled by my mistake).

 

Amazing how little the world changes in the Federal Gov't. Two weeks ago someone told me that the US Navy still expects the properly kitted-out Naval officer to invest in a stock of calling cards (a practice that I thought died in the Reagan era). Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.

[HLeopold]

Legal Lapis shows up just fine on copies. Modern copiers have no trouble with most shades of blue. If the hospital is still using a 1980's era copier, shame on them.

 

My attorney, and the attorneys who handle my relatives' estates, insist that I sign documents in blue. That way, if they get copied on a non-color copier, it is easy to tell the original from the copy. They would not do that if there were any kind of a legal issue.

 

Once upon a time, the U.S. government required everything to be signed in black ballpoint. I believe those days are probably long gone, but of course bureaucrats and mid-level administrators are always the last to get the word -- or to change their ways.

 

Last week I used my Waterman Charleston with Noodler’s Fox Red and it also copied just fine with a black and white copier. Copies came out nice and crisp. It would have been very close to impossible to tell if the original had been black instead of dark(ish) red.

 

Noodler’s Hunter Green also copies fine on the same copier.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Red has never been a problem for photocopiers. Older copiers sometimes had trouble with light blue, the way blue ballpoint sometimes wrote, but red generally came out fine. The new generation of digital copiers has no trouble.

 

John

[Garageboy]

Wasn't there "non-photo" blue?

[tfwall]

Wasn't there "non-photo" blue?

 

Yes, there is/was a blue that is specially made not to reproduce on certain camera copies. This is primarily for architecture reproduction work, modern office copier "see" this blue. Older camera based systems (maybe in some public libraries?) do not.

[Johnny Appleseed]

Non-photo blue was a special shade of blue that was designed not to show up on (some?) film. It was also a very light blue so it would not show up easily through Xerography. In addition to certain architectural uses, it's main use was in pre-press production in printing, as you could mark-up a layout with various notations that would not show up on the Stat camera when you made films of the layout. That shade was also used for the blue grid-lines on layout boards, so they would not show on the films.

 

I think (and someone please correct me if they know more) that the non-photo blue reflected an actual specific wavelength of blue light that would not show up on the film emulsion. I believe the emulsions in Xerography are different. In Xerography, there is a carrier that holds an electrostatic charge. Light causes the surface of the carrier sheet to loose the electrostatic charge, so that the black areas remain charged to pick up charged toner, which is then transferred to the paper and heat-fused. I don't think that non-photo blue is a wavelength "not seen" by a Xerographic process the way that it is for the stat camera - but I think the xerographic process had a harder time picking up blue wavelengths, and the non-photo blue is a low-value (ie. light) color, so it was even harder to pick up. Certainly I remember copying non-photo blue on old Xerox 1075s (late 1980s models), but I had to darken up the contrast a lot to make it show.

 

John

 

 

[everett102]

Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.

 

I have one of those pens in my pocket right now! (I hate to admit this, but I kind-of like it)

[LegalLefty]

It copies just fine. I have my clients sign originals in "other than black" ink, and if they are comfortable with a fountain pen, I have one loaded with Legal Lapis ready for them! I also have Iraqi Indigo for the sassy ones.

[Shelley]

I read in the newspaper that Bush signed someting the other day with felt tip pen, did not say what colour...was not sure if this was a dig or not...

[psfred]

The rule against blue ink originated with Xerox copiers in the '60's -- they used metallic selenium drums (or selenium coated drums) for the light sensitive parts, and the selenium is rather insensitive to red -- the result being that blue looked "white" and vanished. This was a problem up to the late 70's when organic film drums were invented, which can be sensitized to all colors of light, not just blue and green.

 

Modern copiers will usually render blue as lighter than black, but just a cleanly.

 

Prohibitions on using blue ink are outdated beaurocratic hangovers the policies remain, although the reasons vanished decades ago.

 

Peter

[HesNot]

CPA firms still use a non-photo blue pencil for marking up some returns and workpapers.

 

For some odd reason back in my early career when I actually went to court every so often, judges (all of them) in district court at least always signed documents with old school flair style felt tip pens.

 

Anyway - I haven't had a problem with any of my inks copying just fine - even Waterman South Seas Blue which is a fairly light blue.

[Bill]

 

...Today I find out that all the Feds still carry those tacky black "U.S. Government" ballpoint pens. My, my.

 

As a government employee, I would love to walk into the supply room and grab a Pelikan M800 and a bottle of Legal Lapis. Alas, the taxpayers (Hey, I'm one of those, too!) don't agree.

 

I've never heard of an issue with the signature ink color on contractual documents in my agency in recent years because all copies are stamped either "ORIGINAL" or "COPY" in blue ink. Of course, there is at least one color copier in nearly each building.

 

Bill

 

[Viseguy]

What does a U.S. Govt. black ballpoint look like? Something other than a BIC? And what would happen if you filled out a form in, say, Noodler's Black? Would the marshals come and arrest you?

[churl]

I have to thank you guys for this discussion. I too must deal with hospital charts, and I need ink that is both permanent and photocopies. I know that arguments posed to me were not just whether it copied, but how well it copied. So for charting, I've had to darken all my colors. I'm going to have to give legal lapis a shot!

[BillTheEditor]

What does a U.S. Govt. black ballpoint look like? Something other than a BIC? And what would happen if you filled out a form in, say, Noodler's Black? Would the marshals come and arrest you?

Meant to post this long ago. What you can't see is on this photo is the "US Government" imprint. The ones I remember said "Skilcraft - US Government" on them, not sure the new ones have the brand name on them. Also, the old Viet Nam era pens had a single wide chrome band (separate piece of metal, actually, not a stamped imprint) instead of the four narrow bands/two narrow and one broad band in the photo. You might also enjoy the Wikipedia article on "Skilcraft."

 

http://www.jwodcatalog.com/imgLg/7520009357135do.jpg

 

Navy and Marine Corps use the black pens. I suppose the Army does too. Also the Post Office. The Air Force gets the blue ones, just because the zoomies are "special." (I was Navy, myself.)

Edited August 14, 2007 by BillTheEditor

[Viseguy]

Fascinating, Bill! The pens are quite sleek -- much better looking than I thought they'd be.