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M200 Steel Nibs


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31 replies to this topic

#1 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 15:36

I recently bought a second-hand M200 and am very much impressed by the steel nib on the pen. Does anyone have the specifications on these M200 nibs? Are they tipped with the same material as the gold nibs? I would say the M200 writes a little narrower than an M400 of the same size. But the M200 does not feel like a plain steel "school nib" might feel - it's quite a good writer and leads me to believe it has some kind of higher-end tipping on it.



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#2 Olya

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 15:45

To my knowledge all brands use the same tipping for all their nibs unless otherwise specified.

 

Yes, it is generally acknowledged that Pelikan steel nibs write finer than their gold nibs.

 

The steel vs gold is an old debate, tbh I don't care about the material as softness and amazing tipping can be had with both materials..

 

The m2xx nibs are certainly done very well and so it should be!

 

Enjoy your new pen :happyberet:



#3 Karmachanic

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 16:01

The delightfully soft M200 steel nib is the reason I do not own a M800. I have no interest in a nail. There is hope though. I'm given to understand that, with a little work, a #6 Bock Titanium can be encouraged to fit the M800 housing.


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#4 mana

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 16:20

Yup, the tipping material is the same unless we are talking of the wider steel italic/calligraphy nibs which are untipped. Gold nibs > always tipped.


Edited by mana, 23 July 2019 - 16:40.


#5 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 19:07

The 200 writes as fine a clean line as the vintage ('50-65) and semi-vintage ('82-97) 400's nibs.(Also the 381, and gold or steel Celebry nibs) Those nibs write with a clean line.

With-in tolerance they are a narrower nib than modern.

 

It is the modern 400/600/800 and 1000 nibs that are 1/2  a width fatter. With the 800 even more than a 1/2 a width fatter.

In once the 800 had it's very own nib width, which was a bit narrower than the semi-vintage 400.....back before anyone thought much about Japanese pens, Waterman was the skinny nib....and the 800 was positioned between the thin Pelikan 400...which was thinner than the fat Parker and somewhat thinner Sheaffer, and the for then skinny Waterman.

 

The stubbed vintage Pelikan nibs of course have a cleaner line than a modern 400/600/800, as to the semi-vintage tear drop shaped nib tip.

In order to save money from nib exchanges damaged by the crossover ham fisted fountain pen noobie.......Pelikan went over to stiffer nibs. The 400/600 are semi-nails, the 800 nail.

 

Because one can not expect a fountain pen noobie who buys an expensive pen, to want to waste three whole minuted learning how to hold a fountain pen; like a fountain pen behind the big index knuckle; Pelikan went over to the Double Kugal/ball with it's thicker  nib tip......so they could continue to hold the fountain pen like a Ball Point pen, with the pen vertical before the big knuckle.

Having a pen that one can rotate like a ball point, ....a fat and blobby nib with no character. No clean line either like the 200.

 

 I must say, I was brought up short, there are a couple folks that took issue in the fat and blobby rotate like a ball point was exactly what they wanted. :o

And that's all they wanted in a ball point....fountain pen.

 

The good thing about the semi-nail 400/600 and 800 is they make good stubs or CI's once the nib is ground.

 

Yep, I confess, I was once a gold nib snob...........boy was I wrong.

I have steel and gold nibs from Osmia, Geha and selected Pelikans where depending on era, the gold does = the steel nib.

 

 

My first problem with the (nice springy regular flex)  200 was I more into vintage stub semi-flex nibs. Turned my nose up at regular flex nibs also. :( :rolleyes:

 

I trans-mailed 200 nibs to a passed Pal in England in there are many fools in Germany who refuse to ship out of Germany. I of course tried them.....and rapidly came to like them. A nice comfortable ride, and I found I had already lucked out with a selection of regular flex nibs....with out hardly knowing it. :P

 

Having a hand full of 400's didn't need a 200, so got a 215. (in M)...which is a heavier pen.

I now have a W.Germany 200, and if and only if you have a later 200, the W.Germany nib is a slight tad more springy; OB...but it wasn't springy enough to make an oblique worth getting in that era.***.) I also have a Amethyst LE  in M and a Brown marbled 200 in EF....which is of course narrower than a 400/600/800.

 

Once regular flex use to be often the regular issue nib, depending on region and era....the Japanese Soft nibs are supposed to be quite similar.

 

A semi-flex nib gives better line variation.....but....semi-flex is a wet writing nib, so to get two toned shading needs a good ink and paper match. The comfortable ride of a springy regular flex 200's F&M nibs being drier, handle two toned shading ink better. (one does need 90g & + paper for shading inks.)

M makes a good nib for classic rougher paper like Laid or Linen Effect papers, where one needs a bit smoother nib....and the wider M is a touch smoother than a F.

 

M is a very disrespected nib here on the com, in many come/came in with the standard M and went immediately narrow or wide..........M is a good nib to have.......shades a tad better than an F with a tad smoother ride.

 

I can believe that Sargetalon, has @ 100 different 200's....if not, it is not for the lack of trying. Pelikan Perch is his blog.(Of course he did slop over into other Pelikan pens. B)


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 23 July 2019 - 19:17.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#6 LyaT

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 20:14

M20x steel nibs are narrower than gold. I have steel F and M nibs. My M nib is too wet to give any shading. The F nib is too thin for my liking. A lot of people have better experience with steel nibs.

My favorite nibs are 400nn M, M101n M grind to CI, and an old style OB. All of them are 14k gold. The 400nn nib is about the same width as steel.

Edited by LyaT, 23 July 2019 - 20:15.


#7 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 20:25

I haven't come across many Pelikan nibs that I dislike. I find the M400 M nib a bit too wide. I have an M400 F which I like, and the M200 M is also a nice writer. I have a 100N which is a little wider than I like, but still pretty good. I have a 100 that is a little narrower that is really a nice writer. My favorite nib is the KF found on the 140. I have a pair of them and the KF is really a great nib. I have an Ibis with a "+" symbol on the nib that I find a little bit narrow for my liking, but it's not bad. It tends to do well on cheaper paper than the wider nibs. But I like the KFs from the 140s the best of the bunch. But then these are mostly gold nibs, and mostly vintage nibs from the days when fountain pens were standard. As the modern nibs go, this M200 is excellent.



#8 sansenri

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 21:14

You have uncovered the treasure.

I'll not compare to gold nibs because it will be the same old story, vintage vs modern, how nice are the vintage Pelikan flex (agree with you on the 14 K! I have a KM...), they don't do them like that anymore, etc. etc.

But the Pelikan steel nibs are the odd story.

They still do them!

And they are wonderfully springy!

And sometimes I like them more that Pelikan modern gold nibs...

They don't compare with vintage Pelikan gold nibs, but compare them with MODERN steel nibs of any other brand.

There is no comparison (at least someone tell me if there is).

They are smooth (except if you go to the EF) they are springy, extremely nice to write with, they are extremely reliable (I have quite a number), I don't think I have ever experienced skipping issue in a Pelikan steel nib... and I just love their B nib (wide but not too much).



#9 SenZen

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Posted 23 July 2019 - 23:39

In my limited experience with an 18k m600 and two steel m205, all fine, they all write nice and smoothly; since I swap inks a lot until I find the right match I can report that line variations seem to be due more to inks themselves, I used to think the m600 laid a fat line but it's very similar with Kon Peki, while the m205s have Verdigris and Hisoku.

 

The lesson for me was to have more patience, get to know the inks before starting to mess with the nibs...


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#10 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 09:31

Line variation is more found on the vintage 50-65 semi/maxi-semi-flex nibs. But they are wetter writers, needed a good match of shading ink and paper to shade.

Shading, with shading inks on good to better paper, is good on the dryer 200's nibs. I don't expect any real line variation from the 200 or the '82-97 400/600s...... :headsmack: I have a gold regular flex '90's 381, and I was :o that the thing was an OB.....I'd been able to write just fine with out canting the nib, and when I did cant the nib, there was not really any line variation. Regular flex oblique has to be looked long and hard to find any line variation....compared to the real thing of Vintage '50-65 nibs.

 

The '82-90 W.Germany, '88?-90 W.Germany 200 and the W.Germany 600 are that slight tad more springy than the '90-97 Germany nibs. (One does have to have both to be sure of it.)

 

I always suggest buying Only the vintage oblique nibs. I have a W. Germany 200 OB, and the oblique don't quite give the line variation I am spoiled with in vintage. Same goes for a W. Germany OBB 600. There is some, with that wide a nib, again with the tad more spring, the hopes of vintage line variation were dashed....................But I have  vintage Osmia in OBB that give real line variation.    ( :( Even then there was tolerance. One of my two Osmia OBB's is only a OB1/2) :rolleyes:

 

Ray-Vigo, that is a modern M400, with the piston cap rings? Modern Pelikan is wider than semi&vintage and the 200. So you have a fat M or skinny B....on that 400....to my eyes, which are spoiled by old pens.

 

On my list of things to do is to get a 200's nib in B. Partially to see how shading on 90g or better paper goes with that dryer than semi-flex, regular flex nib. I am missing a B in regular flex nibs.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#11 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 14:51

The M400 I got was/is an F nib. I also bought a medium M400 nib unit to try different widths. I figured I could always put the extra nib unit in another pen. The M400 with the F is a good pen of the modern type, which is to say it has a fairly firm nib with a ball-ish tip to it. I like this kind of nib for writing in meetings, where we often have no table and have to write on our laps (the elected board members get to use the table, counsel gets chairs but no table usually). The ball tip is nice when you're left-handed and trying to write in a notepad on your lap.

 

The M400 medium nib unit was left over, so I figured I'd try it in an M200. But after trying both of those mediums, I liked the M200 medium better. This is a pleasant surprise because the 200-level pens are a good value for the price.

 

I think the next Pelikan I get will be an older dome cap 200. I like the dome cap look and if the 200 steel nib is as good as this one, it should be a really nice pen. I will probably have to go online and look for a German dealer for one. There is a substantial mark-up on Pelikan stuff in the U.S., it seems. 



#12 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 20:50

:doh: :wallbash: sometimes I'm narrow minded.

"""I like this kind of nib for writing in meetings, where we often have no table and have to write on our laps (the elected board members get to use the table, counsel gets chairs but no table usually). The ball tip is nice when you're left-handed and trying to write in a notepad on your lap."''

 

I didn't think about left handers with the ball nibs......much less not writing at a desk.

 

Depending on what sort of left handed method you use for your writing,such as an underwriter, shading inks and someday, vintage semi-flex nibs can be used.

 

For certain left handed methods a modern semi-nail 400/600 or 800's nail, oblique is good, using a push-pull, instead of the right hander's pull-push.

 

I rant a lot about how good, a springy regular flex 200's nib is....and how easy it is to be a fool gold snob (especially when modern) and miss fine steel nibs....

...there are some real good vintage steel nibs, Degussa made for Geha or Osmia...in both cases the steel is as good as the gold....(Degussa was once Osmia's nib factory but they lost it to debt Degussa a gold and silver producer in 1933.)

 

I find the steel 200's nib to be = to the '82-97 400's regular flex gold nib..........and a hell of a lot cheaper.

It is hard to stop gold snobbery...had a case of that myself.... :wallbash: The myths one picks up and believes as a noobie, can take years to get rid of.........one has to fight bling status...

 

A steel nail is just as nailish as a gold nail, they are =; except for price.. I have to believe those who say they have a soft gold nail, actually have a semi-nail gold nib and don't know it. My gold or steel nails....are first, last and always a nail....no soft to them. :bunny01:

 

Oh, a semi-flex nib is a writing nib, that gives that old fashioned fountain pen flair; it Is Not a Lettering Nib, which some folks try to push them to be...eventually springing them. There is no reason to 'slow down' when using a semi-flex....IMO. I scribble along with one as fast as if I had good sense.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 24 July 2019 - 20:54.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#13 sansenri

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 23:42

The M400 I got was/is an F nib. I also bought a medium M400 nib unit to try different widths. I figured I could always put the extra nib unit in another pen. The M400 with the F is a good pen of the modern type, which is to say it has a fairly firm nib with a ball-ish tip to it. I like this kind of nib for writing in meetings, where we often have no table and have to write on our laps (the elected board members get to use the table, counsel gets chairs but no table usually). The ball tip is nice when you're left-handed and trying to write in a notepad on your lap.

 

The M400 medium nib unit was left over, so I figured I'd try it in an M200. But after trying both of those mediums, I liked the M200 medium better. This is a pleasant surprise because the 200-level pens are a good value for the price.

 

I think the next Pelikan I get will be an older dome cap 200. I like the dome cap look and if the 200 steel nib is as good as this one, it should be a really nice pen. I will probably have to go online and look for a German dealer for one. There is a substantial mark-up on Pelikan stuff in the U.S., it seems. 

 

Good choice.

There's still a  number of the derby cap M200s around.
I'm very fond of them too (I like the look of them more that the newer model)
I think the blue marbled was very popular at the time.

Also it's so easy to swap nibs, and the steel nibs are affordable so you are bound to end up with more than one nib... (my experience)

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#14 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 13:07

That blue M200 is really a sharp looking pen. 



#15 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 14:55

And as to the steel nibs - I think part of the bias against steel nibs is that there are so many bad quality steel nibs that have been produced over the years. These are the plain (not stainless) steel nibs with no tipping - just with the end folded over to make a writing point. Some of these aren't bad, but plenty of the ones I've come across were just plain bad (rusted/corroded, tip never very smooth even after being worked on, etc). Whereas there is a category of well-made steel nibs, especially the better stainless modern nibs.

 

For many years I would have rated the Waterman Phileas as my favorite steel nib, but I think the M200 has now displaced it because the M200 feels more like a traditional fountain pen nib (the Phileas is very firm and has a full ball tip ; it was also my impression that the Phileas was just steel worked into a ball for the tip, whereas the M200 has actual hard tipping material added). 


Edited by Ray-Vigo, 25 July 2019 - 14:56.


#16 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 21:40

Esterbrook, improved it's rolled steel 1xxx nibs  after about a year, with rolled steel 2xxx nibs that were pretty good....but were 'cheap' and expected to be replaced after 1 1/2 years of use.

 

I found the 2xxx Esterbrook nibs to be just fine. (I of course didn't use them anywhere enough to put any wear on them....I had many other pens) While I had a selection of Esties. Now only have a 9xxx and a empty that has a wide Osmiroid calligraphy nib on it.

 

The pretty and very rate 3xxx and the 9xxx were 'iridium tipped and should have been good for the normal 7-10 years of constant use.

 

I got rid of my chrome fingerprint Waterman Graduate, sort of the same level as your Waterman Phileas, but mine had a tipping and I think yours does too, otherwise there would have been many threads about that back in the Flame Wars of Pelikan vs the then skinny Waterman nibs.....per-Japanese take over of the skinny nib section once held by Waterman. (And Aurora)

 

Then the myth was busted of how much a Pelikan held......well actually all the Piston pens....when a huge 149 was found out to hold only 1.6ml, the same as a big Sheaffer cartridge...... :lticaptd:


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#17 sargetalon

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 17:52

I have long felt that the stainless steel M2xx nibs are very capable of holding their own against their gold counterparts.  In general, they tend to write a bit truer to designation and have just a touch of spring which is often lacking from the gold nibs.  I have found this to be consistent for some time now.  I don't know that there is anything special about the tipping material though.


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#18 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 11:10

Modern, post '97  400/600 nibs are semi-nails, and with a double kugal/ball tip....so are fat and blobby, harder to mangle the nib tip as semi-nail.  Easier to hold like a ball point.

 

I was very surprised that some like the fat ball nib over the old thinner teardrop pre'97-82 nib..in they cant/rotate their nibs like a ball point all the time....or so some said. :unsure:

 

Semi-vintage  IMO is divided into '82-90 & '90-97, with the '82-90 having a slight tad more spring to the nib, than the '90-97 era. The 200's match the different versions......do have a W.Germany 200, (&600) I don't have a '90-97 200, do have a M400, 381 and a gold and steel Celebry that all match my more modern 200's (2) & 215..............really my gold 400, , 381 & Celebry, match my  steel 200's and Celbry nibs in width and springyness.

 

I'm leaving the W. Germany 600, out in I don't have an OBB or OB '82-97 nib to match it with. It does lose to semi-flex OBB.

 

One does have to have both eras of semi-vintage to be able to tell that the W.German is a tad more springy, in the difference is not huge like the difference between vintage and semi-vintage.

 

I was once a fool gold snob, until a passed pal in England had me trans-mail some 200's nibs, in there are idiots in Germany who refuse to mail out of Germany.

I tried the 200's nibs, and found them to be = to my gold '90's M400 nib. So I got a 215, a slightly different 200 pen in I had a few 400's....

I got a gold Celibry, whose nib matched my steel Celibry....the steel one being a 200's nib. The gold one the old 400's or made to it. Both are nice springy F nibs with a nice clean line.

 

So anyway after a while I started ranting about how good a nice springy 200's nib was....a nib well worth ranting about.

 

I don't have any Japanese pens, nor do I intend to get any, they are outside my range of collecting. However what I call regular flex.....in once many companies made such a nib as regular issue, are I think the so called Japanese 'soft' nibs.

I having semi-flex don't really see regular flex as soft................how ever if one was a nail user, then a regular flex would well be 'soft'.

 

In fact over the years, a few heavy handed nail users running into a regular flex nib the for the first time, thought them semi-flex :unsure: , in the tines not only bent, but spread!!!! :yikes:

Nope, but nice springy regular flex gives a really nice ride.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#19 pajaro

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 19:57

I like the M2xx pens.  I prefer the M4xx pens, because I prefer the rigid nibs.  They give me a feeling of stability.  On a few occasions I have accidentally jerked a pen and harmed a softer, less rigid nib.  I leave my flexible nibs alone now.  Sometimes flexibility is not absolutely a plus for a writer.  The M400 and 405 pens I have of recent manufacture give me a very comfortable feeling.

 


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#20 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 15:10

I think it's sort of both - the M400 ball-type tips are helpful if you rotate the nib or have a funny angle when you're writing, but you are also correct that they run larger and have a "blobby" feel once they reach a certain level. My M400 spare nib unit is a medium and it indeed feels kind of like a paintbrush to me. The M400 Fine is better. But the M200 medium is closer to what I'd call a "medium". It does have a little more spring in it, but it's still pretty forgiving if you're writing on your lap or in a tough position. The M140 KF nibs I have have a little ball shape to them, but not as much as the modern nibs (though in the 1950s, the KF represented a ball-style tip for that era). The M200 sort of reminds me of my Sheaffer Touchdown Statesman (open) nibs. And that's a good thing, considering the Touchdown is almost 70 years old now, and from the era when you used a fountain pen as a workhorse writer. I can see the M200 being a reliable workhorse pen with a good nib.

 

The Japanese nibs are usually on another scale. My wife loves her Pilot and Hero pens, and she gets them in EF. Boy, those things make thin lines. For my money, the best modern production pens are Pelikans. The M200 is right there near the top.


Edited by Ray-Vigo, 29 July 2019 - 15:12.







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