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A Moral Dilemma, What Would You Do?


kdv

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I think the question is presumptuous. It assumes the seller is ignorant of the "value" of what he has. This, I think, is the core of the "dilemma" presented. Sure, he might not know what he has, but how does your response change if he does? What if he picked up a box of old pens from a garage sale for $5 and is perfectly happy to 'only' make 10x his money back with little to no effort. We, as enthusiasts, assume everybody cares about these things as much as we do and we recognize that, were he to put in the considerable effort to identify and restore the contents, they would be worth significantly more. But we must remember that is our evaluation and the seller likely has a very different set of priorities. Perhaps he has determined that he can live comfortably if he can always get 5x-10x profit on his sales. Sure, there is more money to be made but the effort may not be worth it.

 

I have always felt that it is responsibility of each individual to determine what something is worth to them. Especially in the modern age when one can simply Google the name on the clip and look through pictures or search on eBay to get some idea of what something is and how much it is worth, the responsibility is on the seller to know what he is selling. For example, at a pen show earlier this year there was one seller who had a number of random items along with a few fountain pens. One of them was a transparent red Pelikan M200. My wife was specifically looking to pick up a Pelikan so we asked how much he wanted. His response was "I don't know, what do you think it's worth?" Both my wife and I had exactly the same thought, you are selling it, you need to tell me what you want. We asked him again and he said "How about $50?" Clearly he was happy with getting that much for the piece. My wife was happy getting a pen she wanted. We never felt the urge to question him on the complete history of the pen nor any historical or sentimental value. He set a price he was happy with and we paid a price we were happy with, end of transaction.

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Where's the moral dilemma? The seller sets the asking price, and that is his/her prerogative, irrespective of whether a prospective buyer thinks it puts the seller at a disadvantage stemming from ignorance, desperation or whatever other reason. It's not as if you sense his ignorance or desperation, then exploit it to push him into accepting a price that is less than to which he would willingly agree under other circumstances.

But let's change the setup and see what we think. It's not a flea market but the sweet little old lady next door having a garage sale to clear out some of her accumulated junk. You are on friendly terms with this widowed neighbor who is getting by on a fixed income. Her late husband had neglected to tell her how valuable these pens were.

In that situation, I will claim that I would do something else. I would tell her that the box of "old pens" seems to be more valuable than she realizes, and that she should hold off on selling them until she can be sure.


I make the distinction based on whether I want the goods someone is offering. If a friend wants to sell something off at a low asking price, and I happen to want that item, I'd take it off her hands for the asking price. If I want to do that friend a favour because she's a friend who has my goodwill, it'll be outside of that transaction; I incur no debt by having scored a bargain trading with her, and no reciprocity is called for. Nothing stops you from offering her a monetary or other gift of $500 or even $5,000 if you strongly want to help her out, with or without trading with her. There is no real point in 'educating' her on the market value of the items, either, after-the-fact of having bought it off her; it only makes sense to tell her to hold off selling if you don't want the items yourself.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct, and valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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It depends. I will never take an opportunistic advantage of someone who is not obviously well off. If it was an elderly couple or the like selling, I would tell them first that the box was worth hundreds of times what they're asking, but in return I'd ask for one of the pens at what I would consider a fair price. I've done that several times to people selling stuff on Craigslist, emailing them and letting them know that what they have is worth dramatically more than they're asking. Several times I've gotten people thanking me that I made them hundreds or thousands of dollars more than they would have, or even offering to give me a small portion, which I decline, but wouldn't blame someone for taking in that situation.

 

If it's just some rich people's estate sale, fair game. Honestly, in your situation, someone with a box of pens worth 25 grand or more probably got a hell of a lot of money from elsewhere as well to be so unconcerned, but I'd probably ask a few friendly, probing questions about why they're selling all these things before I did jump on it.

 

I dunno, maybe it's the paramedic in me. Or maybe it's why I became a paramedic. But seeing people take advantage of each other for indifferent, material gains makes my skin crawl. Gil and I have gone at it over the subject, but I have a strong, sincere, deep seated hatred of the argument of caveat emptor. All that does is drive us towards behaving like animals. Basic decency and respect for each other and recognizing that they are human beings, the same as you, and you'd appreciate it if someone told you that you could be making a lot more money on something, money you could probably really use, so the moral imperative is on you to do the same. We all make mistakes, to err is human, and we learn more from our mistakes than anything else. But if nobody points out those mistakes to help you learn, you don't learn anything.

 

The world we live in is not inherently uncaring, it's we, as people, who make it that way. How would you feel if you didn't realize that thing that you'd done a fair bit of research on, but didn't realize was worth a ton more? I have an old BD Gill kentucky longrifle that one appraiser said wasn't even worth his price to appraise. Another saw that it had the teeny tiny maker's mark indicating that it was one of two that belonged to Kit Carson, and was thought lost. It was appraised at around $40,000. We did our due diligence, and had we not gotten a second appraisal due to the sheer number of guns in the collection, it might have been sold off in the future for pennies. How would you feel if you had something like that, and someone just took advantage of you? You'd be really let down. Even if you "blame yourself," for making that mistake, you shouldn't have to, as long as the person buying it recognized its true value. Not every mistake you make is your fault, and it's our job as a collective society to help point that out. Society is a collaborative effort. If everyone just did their own thing, things like the Apollo program would never have happened. Working together is how we make progress in nearly all aspects of society.

 

You shouldn't put yourself in adverse risk for other people, I.E. don't go running into burning buildings unless you have a duty to act like I do, or give a thousand dollar loan to a stranger (never loan someone something you wouldn't be willing to give them. I "lost" a cheap car to someone that I'd loaned them and they kept it, but I loaned it to him knowing that if he hit even harder times than he was already in, I'd just sign him the title. And as a result, I wasn't mad at all), but when you see and recognize something that can spend a small amount of time, effort, or money (as long as it does not put you at risk of something) to dramatically help another human being, you should. Anything less is sociopathic, in my eyes.

Edited by Honeybadgers

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

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It depends. I will never take an opportunistic advantage of someone who is not obviously well off. If it was an elderly couple or the like selling, I would tell them first that the box was worth hundreds of times what they're asking, but in return I'd ask for one of the pens at what I would consider a fair price. I've done that several times to people selling stuff on Craigslist, emailing them and letting them know that what they have is worth dramatically more than they're asking. Several times I've gotten people thanking me that I made them hundreds or thousands of dollars more than they would have, or even offering to give me a small portion, which I decline, but wouldn't blame someone for taking in that situation.

 

If it's just some rich people's estate sale, fair game. Honestly, in your situation, someone with a box of pens worth 25 grand or more probably got a hell of a lot of money from elsewhere as well to be so unconcerned, but I'd probably ask a few friendly, probing questions about why they're selling all these things before I did jump on it.

 

I dunno, maybe it's the paramedic in me. Or maybe it's why I became a paramedic. But seeing people take advantage of each other for indifferent, material gains makes my skin crawl. Gil and I have gone at it over the subject, but I have a strong, sincere, deep seated hatred of the argument of caveat emptor. All that does is drive us towards behaving like animals. Basic decency and respect for each other and recognizing that they are human beings, the same as you, and you'd appreciate it if someone told you that you could be making a lot more money on something, money you could probably really use, so the moral imperative is on you to do the same. We all make mistakes, to err is human, and we learn more from our mistakes than anything else. But if nobody points out those mistakes to help you learn, you don't learn anything.

 

The world we live in is not inherently uncaring, it's we, as people, who make it that way. How would you feel if you didn't realize that thing that you'd done a fair bit of research on, but didn't realize was worth a ton more? I have an old BD Gill kentucky longrifle that one appraiser said wasn't even worth his price to appraise. Another saw that it had the teeny tiny maker's mark indicating that it was one of two that belonged to Kit Carson, and was thought lost. It was appraised at around $40,000. We did our due diligence, and had we not gotten a second appraisal due to the sheer number of guns in the collection, it might have been sold off in the future for pennies. How would you feel if you had something like that, and someone just took advantage of you? You'd be really let down. Even if you "blame yourself," for making that mistake, you shouldn't have to, as long as the person buying it recognized its true value. Not every mistake you make is your fault, and it's our job as a collective society to help point that out. Society is a collaborative effort. If everyone just did their own thing, things like the Apollo program would never have happened. Working together is how we make progress in nearly all aspects of society.

 

You shouldn't put yourself in adverse risk for other people, I.E. don't go running into burning buildings unless you have a duty to act like I do, or give a thousand dollar loan to a stranger (never loan someone something you wouldn't be willing to give them. I "lost" a cheap car to someone that I'd loaned them and they kept it, but I loaned it to him knowing that if he hit even harder times than he was already in, I'd just sign him the title. And as a result, I wasn't mad at all), but when you see and recognize something that can spend a small amount of time, effort, or money (as long as it does not put you at risk of something) to dramatically help another human being, you should. Anything less is sociopathic, in my eyes.

Fully agree with you. And you phrased it all so good.

LETTER EXCHANGE PARTICIPANT

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I had a version of this dilemma some years ago: a friend of mine had a garage sale of her rockhound father's collection. He had some nice stuff, too; I bought a lapis lazuli boulder my husband wanted. She also had a meteorite; the sticker read $25.00. My husband said it was worth a lot more; I asked him if he wanted it and he said no. So I sidled up to her sister, who was running the sale, and said: "Add a zero to that sticker."

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Let's not conflate dealing with a friend or acquaintance with a commercial transaction (after all that is what a flea-market purchase is).

 

In the first case there is considered to be a moral obligation to protect a friend or acquaintance from harm.

 

On the other hand, a commercial transaction at arms length with a willing seller carries no such obligation so long as the purchaser treats fairly with the seller (eg seeks confirmation of the price, does not commit a fraud by misrepresenting the item).

 

If you feel uneasy then don't complete the purchase. If not then its a case of a willing seller meeting a willing purchaser - its called commerce and its been happening since before we could count on our fingers and toes.

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In the first case there is considered to be a moral obligation to protect a friend or acquaintance from harm.

Someone — be he a friend, acquaintance, or stranger — who picked up or inherits a box of something of unknown worth to him, and decides to sell it off for €50 because €50 in the pocket is better than a box of junk in the garage or garbage bin, is not harming himself even if the contents of the box is worth €250,000 in someone else's eyes.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct, and valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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One thing that has not been touched on is the possibility the origonal seller was right in regard to the value of the items and those who would buy them for high prices were wrong.

This is not theoretical.

Look at Beanie Babies, yes Beanie Babies. I recall that there was significant speculation in them a couple of decades ago with some going for ten to twenty times their origonal sales price on the secondary market and then collapsing in price so that those same $50 to $100 Beanie Babies are no,selling for $.50 to $1.00.

So, who was and is right on the price?

Is it wrong to pay for something when the price asked is based on what the seller believes is a reasonable price rather than what someone else might value that item at?

Is it wrong to sell something that has been obtained at a nominal price for a high amount?

We are talking about profit and who should get it.

Why should an ignorant origonal seller who neither produced the item, nor invested time or capital receive the profit?

That would be a matter of rewarding sloth and laziness given the free availability of information today. We are not talking about buying items from someone in distress who is taking a loss. That is repugnant and wrong.

Wouldn't a better answer be buying the items from the seller who has no moral right to the value of said items, they simply have them through no work of their own, at their asking price and then selling them to those who will value them and use them and do have knowledge of them and will take care of them at a reasonable profit, but at a lower price than otherwise the items might run?

That is what happened to my wife and I when I purchased an unique piece of experimental Roseville Pottery for about half the market price. The sellers who fully aware of the value of the item. We corresponded regarding the sale for months. We drove from Columbus, Ohio to Chicago to buy it from them. We had a two hour interview to be allowed to complete the purchase. The owners wanted assurances we would take care of the piece, one none of their children wanted and a couple scummy dealers had offered them double for based on their idea of taking it and jacking its price up even higher at some high end Chicago Antique store.

We have that piece today, thirty years later.

Edited by Parker51
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I'd simply buy it. I don't regard it any further. Similarly,when I was younger and sold my MTG collection with power 9 cards for a few hundred dollars. It was worth it to me to sell it at that time instead of holding on to them for more value today.

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We are talking about profit and who should get it.

Actually, I don't think we are talking about profit. I think the O.P. was talking about worth, but seem to neglect to note that worth is subjective. Market value is not worth, but simply either the price of the last trade (of a commodity) or the average price of recent trades of an item. (The assumption that there would now be buyers and/or sellers who are prepared to trade today or tomorrow at that price is iffy.)

 

There is no reason to believe that everyone ought to be entitled to get market value for something he/she wants to be rid of, lest he/she must have suffered from being tricked, exploited or harmed and some injustice is done. Seriously?

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct, and valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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I've bought pens cheap at antique stores and estate sales when it was clear the seller didn't know the value. I've also walked away from sales where the seller thought a pen was valuable just because it was "old". The $295 US Waterman lever-filler with the nib bent in half being a prime example of the latter. :(

Parker51's discussion of Beanie Babies is a very good example. I saw a thing on TV a few years ago where some former child star lost his shirt when that bubble burst. I now occasionally buy the Scoop the Pelican ones if they're a couple of bucks, to clean up and give away to people in the SCA when they're being elevated to the Order of the Pelican (the highest level service award in the organization). Why? Because someone gave me one for my elevation and someone gave one to my husband at his. If I buy them at a buck or three, I don't feel I've wasted my money by then giving them away. It's just a little "remember, we're supposed to be doing this for fun" memento. I can't comprehend the hype over them during the bubble -- it's like "tulip mania" in 17th century, only at least with tulips you could propagate new plants.

If there is ever a burst bubble on MB LE pens, I will stand back and point and laugh. And no, I'm not going to then going around buying them for pennies on the dollar because they're mostly butt-ugly garish, un-ergonomic pens to begin with.... B) (Ditto for some of the Montegrappa monstrosities....)

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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If there is ever a burst bubble on MB LE pens, I will stand back and point and laugh. And no, I'm not going to then going around buying them for pennies on the dollar because they're mostly butt-ugly garish, un-ergonomic pens to begin with.... B) (Ditto for some of the Montegrappa monstrosities....)

 

Yep. I'd happily walk past a box full of either of these with a $5 sticker. :)

Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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Probably. :-)))))))))))

 

The chances are you will pay the 50 euros, and then you'll find half the pens are missing nibs, a quarter have cracks and leak like sieves, ten percent are fakes, knock-offs, mechanical pencils or biros long out of production and the last 15% that are salvagable require more time and money that you have to make it worth your while.

 

After a while, you'll feel that you paid too much - and you'd probably be right.

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I won't argue further on the moral dimension of the question. It's interesting, as always, to see the positions people take, and how they justify them. And I have to keep in mind that, with all the self analysis of which I am capable, I am as much at risk of self deception as anyone else.

 

But I'll just add one thing which may shape my perceptions. I have never bought a pen (or anything) with the idea of reselling it at a profit, and I don't think it likely that I ever will. If I get a vintage pen for less than I think it's worth, the sole benefit to me is that I now have a pen that I wanted for less than I might have paid.

 

People who buy things in order to "flip" them may have different ideas. Not saying that's wrong, just that we have different motivations.

"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."

 

- Benjamin Franklin

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Ls,

 

 

What would you do?

 

 

As a kid lying in bed, I often dreamed about becoming a great football star before falling asleep.

 

When I grew older themes changed (piloting the best airplane, etc.), but the wish thinking before falling asleep continued.

 

Now – since I fell into this rabbit hole - I often think about this (yes like a little child):

 

 

“”

I’m wandering around at a flea market and suddenly notice a shoe box filled with premium vintage fountainpens (MB 139, in all versions, Soenneckens all over, Astoria’s).

 

There must be a hundred off them.

 

I’m pretty sure they are all original.

 

Asking price: E 50, --

Market value: hmmm E 250.000, -?

 

A moral dilemma!!!!???

 

What would you do?

  • Offer 25, -
  • Pay the E 50, -
  • Pay double for your own peace of mind?
  • Pay more for more peace of mind?
  • Take into consideration the person who is selling (nice and poor or …a (bleep))
  • Something else
“”

 

Anyway,

 

Going to sleep now :) .

 

Sleep (dream) well too.

 

Greetings,

kdv

 

Give me a break.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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Let's not conflate dealing with a friend or acquaintance with a commercial transaction (after all that is what a flea-market purchase is).

 

In the first case there is considered to be a moral obligation to protect a friend or acquaintance from harm.

 

On the other hand, a commercial transaction at arms length with a willing seller carries no such obligation so long as the purchaser treats fairly with the seller (eg seeks confirmation of the price, does not commit a fraud by misrepresenting the item).

 

If you feel uneasy then don't complete the purchase. If not then its a case of a willing seller meeting a willing purchaser - its called commerce and its been happening since before we could count on our fingers and toes.

 

A flea market is still money going to an individual. Just because you aren't friends with the person, does not mean that you shouldn't treat them with the same respect or decency.

 

Just because it feels good to get that rush of getting a crazy advantage, remember that advantage was at another human being's expense. If a waitress accidentally under-bills you and your bill comes out hugely low, sure it may feel nice, but she may lose her job if you don't point it out.

 

That doesn't mean you can't take advantage of a good deal (if that same waitress just forgot to bill you on a coffee or soda, c'est la vie) but if you are knowingly taking an unreasonable advantage of someone who simply may not know or may have made a small mistake, that's on you, not them.

 

Again, the argument of "caveat emptor" just encourages poisonous, antisocial behavior that sets a bad precedent for the world. We should all look out for each other, whether or not they're part of our "in group."

Edited by Honeybadgers

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

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I'd simply buy it. I don't regard it any further. Similarly,when I was younger and sold my MTG collection with power 9 cards for a few hundred dollars. It was worth it to me to sell it at that time instead of holding on to them for more value today.

 

 

Speaking of MTG, I saw a guy use a bunch of old MTG cards as a spray shield when he painted his car's wheels.

 

 

One of those cards was a black lotus.

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

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Speaking of MTG, I saw a guy use a bunch of old MTG cards as a spray shield when he painted his car's wheels.

 

 

One of those cards was a black lotus.

 

One of these?

post-130775-0-99414600-1563527074_thumb.jpg

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Just because you aren't friends with the person, does not mean that you shouldn't treat them with the same respect or decency.

A buyer treats a seller with respect, by paying the asking price that was nominated by the seller of his/her own accord without any input, influence or pressure from the buyer, for the item on offer. Not second-guessing the seller's knowledge or intent, not presuming to know what's best for him/her or try and 'educate' the seller.

 

Just because it feels good to get that rush of getting a crazy advantage, remember that advantage was at another human being's expense.

Some things in life are "zero-sum games". One respects a fellow player by playing according to the rules in the most astute way known to the former. A girl at university (twenty-odd years ago) thought it was insulting to her that I forced a draw in a protracted way with her in a game of chess, when she realised I could have finished her off and won much sooner. In the kind of commerce we're discussing, buyer and seller are not working together for a win-win outcome or trying to bolster the GNP for the good of the nation.

 

If a waitress accidentally under-bills you and your bill comes out hugely low, sure it may feel nice, but she may lose her job if you don't point it out.

Whether someone loses their job due to their own errors (that I didn't hypnotically induce, etc.) is not my problem. However, my fiancée and I were happy to tell the manager of the restaurant that he made a mistake and under-billed us for a meal really enjoyed, because we enjoyed it and wanted to pay the correct amount (which of course we could afford, otherwise we wouldn't dine there or order what we ordered from the menu) in recognition of the quality of food and good service we got (from him, actually, since he personally served us even though there was another waitress on duty that night). His welfare as a person is something else, and not our concern; the boundaries of his relationship with us are predicated and constrained by the relationship between diner and restaurant staff.

 

That doesn't mean you can't take advantage of a good deal (if that same waitress just forgot to bill you on a coffee or soda, c'est la vie) but if you are knowingly taking an unreasonable advantage of someone who simply may not know or may have made a small mistake, that's on you, not them.

It's only unreasonable for one to exploit someone else's mistake if either the former deliberately induced the mistake underhandedly, or there is such an imbalance of power that the former can force the latter into submission and make that "mistake" eyes wide open.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct, and valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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