A Moral Dilemma, What Would You Do?

[kdv]

Ls,

 

 

What would you do?

 

 

As a kid lying in bed, I often dreamed about becoming a great football star before falling asleep.

 

When I grew older themes changed (piloting the best airplane, etc.), but the wish thinking before falling asleep continued.

 

Now – since I fell into this rabbit hole - I often think about this (yes like a little child):

 

 

“”

I’m wandering around at a flea market and suddenly notice a shoe box filled with premium vintage fountainpens (MB 139, in all versions, Soenneckens all over, Astoria’s).

 

There must be a hundred off them.

 

I’m pretty sure they are all original.

 

Asking price: E 50, --

Market value: hmmm E 250.000, -?

 

A moral dilemma!!!!???

 

What would you do?

1. Offer 25, -
2. Pay the E 50, -
3. Pay double for your own peace of mind?
4. Pay more for more peace of mind?
5. Take into consideration the person who is selling (nice and poor or …a (bleep))
6. Something else

“”

 

Anyway,

 

Going to sleep now .

 

Sleep (dream) well too.

 

Greetings,

kdv

[silverlifter]

Pay the asking price. That's the entire point of flea markets/second hand trade.

 

Haggling for a prize like that, though, would be shabby...

[zaddick]

I'd pay the price and take them home to get them sorted. Depending on the seller I'd consider additional compensation, perhaps offer to only take a few pens and help them value the rest. But if the seller was someone who was just processing large volumes of other people's cast offs (someone who buys abandoned storage lockers, etc.) I'd consider they made the profit they wanted and lacked the expertise I have to value pens. They'd be happy and I'd be happy. And if the seller was rude I'd probably not offer any additional compensation.

[zaddick]

I also don't consider this much of a moral dilemma. Asymmetry in information is a fact of life. I would not buy goods in a free exchange if I already did not feel there was more value to me than the asking price.

 

Now if the seller was under duress or asked me what I thought the pens were worth then we would be wandering into the moral dilemma, in my opinion.

[Marlow]

Hahaha - I had a dream when I first started collecting pens that I bought a suitcase full of Onoto Magnas in mint condition for absolute peanuts and then sold them off slowly so as not to flood the market and lower the value as a result!

 

As for the morality, I think zaddick covered the appropriate bases.

[sandy101]

The chances are you will pay the 50 euros, and then you'll find half the pens are missing nibs, a quarter have cracks and leak like sieves, ten percent are fakes, knock-offs, mechanical pencils or biros long out of production and the last 15% that are salvagable require more time and money that you have to make it worth your while.

 

After a while, you'll feel that you paid too much - and you'd probably be right.

[Tadeo]

Pay the asking price.

A treasure is so only for the one who values it.

 

Tadeo

[OMASsimo]

I never dream about this kind of thing to the degree that I would remember. And like always, my answer would be "it depends".

 

But I can tell you what I frequently do in situations where I get a benefit which I feel I don't deserve. I'll keep it to pens here and give you a real example. I have a B&M store in my town and the shop owner is a real enthusiast. I enjoy stopping by after my Saturday farmers market visit even if I have no need or intention to buy anything. And he's always interested in what pen(s) I have in my shirt pocket because he knows what a nutcase pen collector I am. Some time ago, I restored an enigmatic but pretty 1930s button filler and had it with me. When he saw it, he said that he had a very similar pen somewhere but he couldn't find it at the moment. A couple weeks later he had dug it out and showed me. I was close to hyperventilating when I saw it, it was a super rare Osmia 222 in a stunning caramel cracked ice celluloid. It was in poor condition, though. He noticed my excitement and simply gave me the pen. I protested and told him that it's worth a lot and I cannot accept this, but he insisted claiming that he has absolutely no use for it. I agreed to the extend that I'll have a look at the pen and then pay him a fair price. So I did and decided that I wanted to keep and restore the pen. But the next Saturday he plainly rejected to take any money for the pen. I felt like robbing him and he obviously felt different about this, probably happy that he matched a great pen with a nut connoisseur. We apparently could not find a mutual agreement but we both can make independent decisions. My decision was to buy something at his shop I wouldn't have otherwise so that he actually does make some business of me. This is mainly because I want to support him and his wonderful B&M store. And then I simply will make a donation to a charity organization amounting to the sum I didn't have to pay for this marvelous pen. That's what I always do in situations similar to this. Because, obviously, I'm sufficiently well off (and my B&M dealer as well) to not need the money which can save lives somewhere else where people have more severe worries than paying for a vintage pen - like staying alive and supporting a family.

[fullfederhalter]

I agree with those who have suggested paying the asking price. Last weekend I happily paid the one dollar asking price for a transitional Esterbrook J fountain pen. Today it is easier than ever with a little internet searching for a seller to at least get an idea of value before offering a pen or pens for sale. And while I still find undervalued pens at flea markets and estate sales, I also find pens which the sellers have vastly overpriced because they fail to consider condition, or they heard somewhere that fountain pens are valuable--even that worn out Wearever. It is in the best interests of both buyers and sellers to know the fair value of the merchandise before a sale is completed.

[Parker51]

I don't have those types of dreams.

In regard to actually getting something at a significantly lower price than typically brings, yes, it has happened to me. The seller in this example had said repeatedly to the crowd at the auctions he holds "If I make a mistake, don't tell me, I don't want to know." And so, when he misidentified a couple of quite valuable Sterling Jefferson Goblets as Pewter, I didn't tell him and I was the high bidder. I have followed his instructions and have never told him.

I do not feel guilty in the least.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Parker51

[yubaprof]

My wife used to own a brick and mortar used book store, emphasizing high end stock. One day she was browsing a thrift shop run by a local church. All hardback books were listed for $1.00. She came upon a signed first edition copy of poems by one of America's most acclaimed African-American poets. The book was in pristine condition. She took the book to the counter and advised the clerk that he should reevaluate the book. He blew her off and said "just give me the buck, I got too many books here." She gave him the $1.00 and returned to her shop. A week later she sold the book for $1,100. Then she anonymously donated $100.00 to the church.

[senzen]

Well it depends how much they are really worth, at market prices and to you; for instance since I use pens and don't collect them or sell them, their working order or any very minor adjustments would be of importance to me. I would pay the asking price if it seems acceptable, and if it then turns out that it's worth more I'd go back and pay some more. But then that's me and my "do the right thing" education, which isn't universal.

[Runnin_Ute]

I would pay the 50 ($, pound, euro, other) and go on my way. Keep some and sell others. Perhaps even give a few away.

 

Repair the ones I have the skills to do myself and pay someone if it is beyond what I can do. (Or learn)

[peroride]

@kdv

 

I would have done what you did, take stock of the situation and get more opinions.

 

The next day, all the pens would be gone and I would learn something and get harangued by my loved ones

 

My mother-in-law would have bargained down a third of the price; i love her

 

Honestly, opinions don't matter; only what matter's to you.

 

Sometimes we just have to listen to our heart if the head does not answer. Do what feels right.

 

I like @OMASsimo and @yubaprof wife's course, buy then give. You win both ways

Edited July 17, 2019 by peroride

[vicpen123]

While it is not expected that a vendor should know the value of any particular fountain pen, it is not unreasonable to expect that a flea market vendor of fountain pens should appreciate that some fountain pens might be valuable and to expect that the vendor has had an opportunity to investigate the value of any or all fountain pens.

 

If the vendor has not bothered to carry out a basic investigation (readily accessible on the internet) then there is no moral or ethical dilemma is taking advantage of superior knowledge to purchase a pen at a bargain price. In Latin it is called caveat venditor (the opposite of caveat emptor).

 

Buy with a clear conscience.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Nice dream, eh?

So get a third mortgage. And buy the pens............anybody in the day of internet who sells classic pens, for obsolete broken junk....knows what he's doing....getting rid of obsolete junk to any idiot passing by.

[AL01]

If the price is good, than pay it.

 

You COULD have tried to screw the vendor over for a few Euros, but you didn't do it, for you know that you and the vendor will be happy with the asking price.

 

I have bought items worth about 10X to 20X their value for the asking price of the vendor...

 

We both leave happy.

 

I hope that helps...

[Karmachanic]

What would you do if you walked into a Fountain Pen Boutique and they asked $1000 for a $200 pen? Pay the asking price or offer $200?

[ISW_Kaputnik]

In the original scenario, I think I would pay the asking price and leave it at that.

 

But let's change the setup and see what we think. It's not a flea market but the sweet little old lady next door having a garage sale to clear out some of her accumulated junk. You are on friendly terms with this widowed neighbor who is getting by on a fixed income. Her late husband had neglected to tell her how valuable these pens were.

 

In that situation, I will claim that I would do something else. I would tell her that the box of "old pens" seems to be more valuable than she realizes, and that she should hold off on selling them until she can be sure.

 

But the flea market vendor, though a stranger to me, is a person who may be just as hard up as my neighbor, and just as deserving from an objective standpoint.

 

My claim might be that someone selling professionally is responsible for understanding their business, and it's not for me to look out for them. But is that really a good answer, or is it just me justifying what I've already decided to do?

[Frozenoak]

I'd buy them at asking price assuming I would have to invest market value into them for restoration. I hate to haggle.