Japanese Nib Tipping Sizes

[kikopens]

I posted this topic today on the common forum, I was suggested by someone to post this topic here too, cause many of you are more experienced about Japanese pens here. I have two questions:

1. Does the Pilot VP Broad feels more like Western broad despite being a Japanese pen?

2. Does the other Pilot Custom series follow the same principle about their broad nibs more being a European Broad?

Edit: Please include Platinum into the comparison too.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Arijitdutta

[Bounce792]

1. I do not have a VP in Broad so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ However, I have not noticed a difference between my Decimo's F nib and my 74's F nib. Japanese sizes are essentially one size smaller than their European/Western counterparts. So a Japanese Broad would be a Western Medium. In addition, there can be variations between specialty nibs from different companies (e.g. a Pilot Coarse vs. Platinum Coarse) as well as between gold and steel nibs. If you want a Western Broad from a Japanese pen, you need to buy a Coarse or Music nib.

 

2. This is universal amongst Japanese nibs. They cater to the Japanese domestic market primarily. Foreign FP sales are low on their priorities. Japanese kanji is a lot harder to read and write as nib sizes increase. My 823 Broad is essentially the same line width as my Lamy Safari Medium.

[KyleClapton]

I want to know about the comparison between Japanese nibs and Western nibs too, as I only know about Japanese nibs.

[Bounce792]

I want to know about the comparison between Japanese nibs and Western nibs too, as I only know about Japanese nibs.

Can you be more specific about what kind of information you're looking for?

[Tas]

My experience of Pilot's VP . . .

Prior to purchase, I had read that Pilot's nibs run a size smaller than "Western" nibs so I ordered an <M> nib. The nib was a joy to use, it even sang, but it was exactly like a "Western" medium. I ended up having it ground to a 0.5mm cursive italic by Ross & Pure Pens and have since ground it down even further.

I have loads of other Pilot pens, ALL of which run approx one grade thinner than "Western" nibs. I would say, from my experience, yes. The VP nibs seem to be graded differently.

[KyleClapton]

Can you be more specific about what kind of information you're looking for?

I just want to know more about the difference between Japanese and Western nibs in general.

I have been using Japanese fountain pens for only 2 years and don't know much about Western pens, so all the information are new to me.

I would like to follow this topic to learn more about that.

Thank you very much for reply my comment

[KyleClapton]

My experience of Pilot's VP . . .

 

Prior to purchase, I had read that Pilot's nibs run a size smaller than "Western" nibs so I ordered an <M> nib. The nib was a joy to use, it even sang, but it was exactly like a "Western" medium. I ended up having it ground to a 0.5mm cursive italic by Ross & Pure Pens and have since ground it down even further.

 

I have loads of other Pilot pens, ALL of which run approx one grade thinner than "Western" nibs. I would say, from my experience, yes. The VP nibs seem to be graded differently.

I have tried Medium nib of Pilot VP and it is true that it seems broader than Medium nib of Custom 74 I have

[kikopens]

I have tried Medium nib of Pilot VP and it is true that it seems broader than Medium nib of Custom 74 I have

 

I am seeing this generalisation of the Pilot nibs everywhere. VP nibs tend to be more like Western nibs. Is this due to the fact that they are made for American and EU sales under the name of VP? Like if I buy a "Capless" medium from Japan itself will be a true Japanese Medium?

[A Smug Dill]

I am seeing this generalisation of the Pilot nibs everywhere. VP nibs tend to be more like Western nibs.

I see no evidence of that. I have twelve Pilot Capless (Vanishing Point and Decimo) pens here, and some extra nib assemblies too: two Extra Fine, one Medium and two Stub nibs, and the rest are Fine nibs. I have no reason to conclude that "VP nibs tend to be more like Western nibs", based on my experience with those. (I have enough "Western" Fine nibs and Stub nibs against which to compare.)

[BaronWulfraed]

I just want to know more about the difference between Japanese and Western nibs in general.

 

"In General"

 

My experience is that Japanese nibs tend to run a size finer than Western nibs.

 

Having said that, between Platinum, Pilot, and Sailor, I've found Platinum tends to run on the narrower side of each "size" class, and Pilot runs on the fatter side for the same class.

 

 

{I'm ignoring the blatant mismatch in my two pens with Platinum "President" nibs: a President marked M and an Izumo marked B. Visually, the two nibs are apparently different; the B is 50% larger -- but on paper, that B puts down the same width line as the M

 

But taking that into account just shows that generalities is all one can state -- any single pen could be at either end of a range that is accepted by the maker as being "size X". I doubt the makers ink the nibs and draw lines which are then measured by instruments before they stamp a size on the nib -- more likely they make a quick go/no-go test of the /tipping/ to classify the size, and the actual grind of the tipping is not taken into account}

Edited July 18, 2019 by BaronWulfraed

[nishikori]

The VP Broad definitely felt like a Western Medium to me.

[mke]

> The VP Broad definitely felt like a Western Medium to me

There is no such thing like a "Western Medium". A Pelikan M, a Bock M, a Parker Duofold M are all different.
And a Sailor M and a Platinum M and a Pilot M are also all different.
If you want to compare, measure the line sizes. That is much more objective than talking about Western M.

 

I have a Pilot M which is much broader than my Sailor Ms. I measured it once but don't remember the exact data.

Edited July 31, 2019 by mke

[thx1138]

My 3776 broad is at least as broad as my US, UK, of European broads. The 3776 C (BB) is an ink beast.

[DonM]

I don't remember where I found this, but it may help. I'd say it generally reflects my experience with these nibs, but individual pens will vary.

 

Nib Sizes EF F FM M B

Parker 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.6mm 0.8mm

Pelican 0.4mm 0.5mm 0.7mm 0.8mm

Pilot 0.2mm 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.5mm 0.6mm

Sailor 0.2mm 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.5mm 0.6mm

Platinum 0.2mm 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.6mm

Edited July 31, 2019 by DonM

[A Smug Dill]

I'd say it generally reflects my experience with these nibs, but individual pens will vary.

_...‹snip›...

Sailor 0.2mm 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.5mm 0.6mm

Platinum 0.2mm 0.3mm 0.4mm 0.6mm

I wouldn't presume to invalidate your experience or claim, but how do you measure line width?

 

Platinum published its "standard" for nib width grades versus line widths, standardised for the angle of the nib and pressure applied on the nib against the paper surface. The type of paper and the particular ink is not stated for the results of that chart, but other types of test results published by Platinum that I've seen suggest that the ink is Platinum black dye ink, although the paper remains unspecified.

[DonM]

I'd say that the little table is best used to illustrate relative line width, rather than absolute.

 

I've been looking for that Platinum chart for ages. I know I ran across it in English, but I can't find it again. Guess I'll have to learn some Japanese.

[mke]

line width can be measured with a crack scale and a magnifying glass:

https://images.app.goo.gl/tuQbQpEd1nX5kVuN6

 

I think that table is good, it reflects well my experience.

Edited July 31, 2019 by mke

[BaronWulfraed]

And (since it had gotten lost when my prior web space disappeared) I'll submit the image from my "Tale of Two Nibs" as an illustration that the size of the tipping is not really a valid measurement.

 

On the left: Platinum Izumo-Tamenuri, "President" Broad nib

On the right: Platinum President, "President" Medium nib

 

Note the visual difference in the size of the tipping.

 

Then note the virtually identical effective line widths.

 

 

Cellphone camera aimed into an Edmund 6X Junior Comparator (discontinued, the larger Pocket version is still in the catalog when I last checked), with a "hole and thickness" reticle. Half inch lower scale, 10mm upper scale. As you can see, the resolution on the inch scale is finer than the mm scale.