Ballpoint Refill That Is Waterproof And Permanent?

[redpillow]

By the way, the iso 12757-2 is the rating for ballpoint pen refill documentary use.

The Pelikan refill has that rating but so does the MB refill, I'm seeing quite a variance in fading.

 

To get that rating the manufacturer probably needs to prove that the writing is easily legible after uv and water exposure, but there seems to be a lot of variation on how they actually perform.

[redpillow]

Faber Castell XB blue performing very well for uv- water proof

 

A note about the MB ballpoint refill: it has darkened quite a bit

Edited July 6, 2019 by redpillow

[milkb0at]

This is great, redpillow. Thank you.

[OregonJim]

To get that rating the manufacturer probably needs to prove that the writing is easily legible after uv and water exposure, but there seems to be a lot of variation on how they actually perform.

 

Exactly right. That ISO standard is great for bankers and lawyers, but meaningless to artists. It does not address fading or color shifts, as you are proving. "Legibility" is the only criterion - the mark must not totally "disappear".

[A Smug Dill]

That ISO standard is great for bankers and lawyers, but meaningless to artists.

Inadequate to those who have more stringent requirements for image fidelity, perhaps, but I'm sure even artists have some shared requirements with those who draw schematic diagrams in documents, and thus I argue it cannot be completely meaningless.

 

It does not address fading or color shifts, as you are proving. "Legibility" is the only criterion - the mark must not totally "disappear".

I don't have access to the content of the actual ISO standard document, but from what I can see, I think it does address fading and colour shifts:

 

 

Source: International Organization for Standardization (ISO)

 

[Honeybadgers]

Gil, it's pretty painfully obvious the very specific needs of a singular artistic style are not within your wheelhouse of expertise, mate. Best to just let them discuss it on their own if you don't have any direct experience in the field. I don't, so I'm staying out of it.

 

Technical drawing is completely and totally separate from the style of art the OP is discussing. You're essentially trying to say that MIG and TIG welding are the same thing because they're both joining metal. While true, the hard technical aspects are very different and bespoke to each school of welding. The OP is after a very specific amount of archival behavior in the pigments themselves while also having the shading characteristics inherent to the oil based ballpoint fluid

 

I am nearly certain that ISO ratings only care about legibility, not archival characteristics. Archival characteristics are a completely different field to the ISO ratings. ISO ain't rating archival restoration pigments, and professional painting restoration artists aren't going to the ISO page.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[hari317]

12757-2 tests for water resistance 6.2.6 and light resistance 6.2.7. The pass criteria post exposure is that the "lines shall remain visible". So the standard allows fading.

Edited July 10, 2019 by hari317

[A Smug Dill]

Technical drawing is completely and totally separate from the style of art the OP is discussing. You're essentially trying to say that MIG and TIG welding are the same thing because they're both joining metal.

I'm saying that the term "drawing" does not exclude technical drawing for the pen user community, of which an unknown number of members could be reading this thread. I understand the O.P. has rather more specialised concerns than what "drawing" (with ballpoint pens) entails — and I asked, and also thanked him for articulating them — but I don't think an open discussion in a forum should only serve one individual's specialised interests, when other members could be drawn (no put intended) to this thread by either its title or via searching with the keywords of "ballpoint", "drawing", and "permanent", "waterproof" and/or even "lightfast".

 

Personally I think it's great to have the discussion, so that interested parties can use it as a starting point, then go acquire and peruse the ISO standard, then decide whether it is adequate or in which way it is inadequate for his/her specialised interests and concerns, but that analysis and subsequent filtering of which replies in the thread (as opposed to the requirements stated in the ISO standard) are "meaningless" to his/her pursuit.

[OregonJim]

 

I don't have access to the content of the actual ISO standard document, but from what I can see, I think it does address fading and colour shifts:

 

Perhaps I should have worded it differently - how about this: "While the ISO standard may address fading and color shift, both of these negative properties are allowed to be excessive while still passing ISO certification".

 

In other words, an ink can be certified to comply with the ISO standard by merely having a legible mark remain after being subjected to an ISO-prescribed level of exposure to UV light and various chemicals, including water.

 

No artist that I know of, including myself, would consider "legible" to be a useful property of ANY art medium. Lightfast, yes. Waterproof, yes. Color integrity, yes. Legible, no. Legibility is a property assigned to the written word, which is a different domain altogether.

Edited July 10, 2019 by OregonJim

[aurore]

GvFC performs well. Also Aurora refills are good (and nicely blue unlike most purplish blue refills).
The worst refill ever (in terms of permanency) is Caran d'Ache Swissride - hybrid ink (NOT a "Goliath" refill) - it fades in no time to nothing if exposed to UV (simply AWFUL!), but is smooth indeed.

Edited January 5, 2020 by aurore

[mikerph]

Cross does make archival ink ballpoint refills, it is marked on package and are sold at Office Depot and Staples . That is about the only refill I know of that is plainly marked.