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Bchr Not Black Anymore


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#21 mresimulator

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 13:02

Does somebody knows something about the chemical composition of Hoover potion? Im a chemist, and I couldnt find any reference about deoxidation mechanism un BHR. Regards

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#22 Marlow

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 13:38

Does somebody knows something about the chemical composition of Hoover potion? Im a chemist, and I couldnt find any reference about deoxidation mechanism un BHR. Regards

 

I believe that is a closely guarded secret!


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#23 PaulS

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 15:31

Just a thought, but perhaps the exression 'deoxidation' leads to some misunderstanding of what is going on in this particular process  -  the chemical action isn't converting the existing oxidized surface of the pen back to its original black.                        Instead - IMHO - the existing surface, which has oxidized, is dissolved - and would appear to be held in suspension in the potion, which when wiped away takes the suspended oxidized material with it, thus exposing a new underlying, less oxidized material, which has a more black appearance.

This can be repeated several times, such that the brown decreases with each application, by dissolving less and less oxidised material each time - a touch of the law of diminishing returns - since it's only oxidized material that reacts to the potion, and not the fully black BHR. 

 

Regret I've no idea as to make-up of Mark Hoover's product.



#24 mresimulator

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 17:32

Mmm... The proposed mechanism doesnt seem accurate because the oxidated HR Is chemical bonded to the HR (I mean Is part of the same polymer web). Any idea of the potion composition? (In my country the potion bottle must incluye a general composition). Regards, jose

#25 PaulS

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 21:16

I seem to recall Mark Hoover commenting that his product is safe and without toxins of any kind - a copy of the standard instruction leaflet can be download from the internet, though this doesn't include any comment as to constituents, and I certainly have no idea, and the container for the product is without any data on the contents.            I suspect this is deliberate, though it's possible this may contravene regulations somewhere along the line.

Pens with overlay can be immersed in this product entirely for some considerable time and there's no evidence that silver or gilding is harmed or that steaking on the HR occurs.          Though I've not yet tried it, apparently the product works very well on RHR.

Something is causing the oxidized HR to separate from the rest of the body of the pen  -  perhaps it's just the stickiness. :)



#26 jaytaylor

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:25

Just a thought, but perhaps the exression 'deoxidation' leads to some misunderstanding of what is going on in this particular process  -  the chemical action isn't converting the existing oxidized surface of the pen back to its original black.                        Instead - IMHO - the existing surface, which has oxidized, is dissolved - and would appear to be held in suspension in the potion, which when wiped away takes the suspended oxidized material with it, thus exposing a new underlying, less oxidized material, which has a more black appearance.

This can be repeated several times, such that the brown decreases with each application, by dissolving less and less oxidised material each time - a touch of the law of diminishing returns - since it's only oxidized material that reacts to the potion, and not the fully black BHR. 

 

Regret I've no idea as to make-up of Mark Hoover's product.

 

 

Exactly my thoughts, de-oxidise is as rational as de-aging lotion. It is impossible to de-oxidise whether it be metal, plastics or rubber.

The process of restoring anything oxidised involves the removal of the oxidised layer and typically protecting the freshly exposed surface. This process is common to automotive paint, metals etc. there is no magical unicorn of reversing the oxidising process. 



#27 jaytaylor

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:27

Something is causing the oxidized HR to separate from the rest of the body of the pen  -  perhaps it's just the stickiness. :)

 

Not really, it is most likely the gel is dissolving all the vulcanised rubber it makes contact with, oxidised or not.



#28 praxim

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 09:59

Not really, it is most likely the gel is dissolving all the vulcanised rubber it makes contact with, oxidised or not.

 

and that is why the rubber stripper (think paint stripper, only milder) preserves patterns, by reducing all the surfaces the liquid stripper reaches, whereas abrasion preferentially reduces raised surfaces while fillers close gaps, so both of the latter reduce pattern prominence.


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#29 Marlow

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 10:26

 

and that is why the rubber stripper (think paint stripper, only milder) preserves patterns, by reducing all the surfaces the liquid stripper reaches, whereas abrasion preferentially reduces raised surfaces while fillers close gaps, so both of the latter reduce pattern prominence.

 

Excellent point!


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#30 mresimulator

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 11:09

 
 
Exactly my thoughts, de-oxidise is as rational as de-aging lotion. It is impossible to de-oxidise whether it be metal, plastics or rubber.
The process of restoring anything oxidised involves the removal of the oxidised layer and typically protecting the freshly exposed surface. This process is common to automotive paint, metals etc. there is no magical unicorn of reversing the oxidising process. 


Not tru. De-oxide a surface is totally posible for some kind of surfaces. The difficult task is recovery exactly the same superficial strucuture (at atomic level) that the material have before oxidation.

In the other Hans, I cant understand how Is possible that my country have better regulations about the formulations of the products that the USA.

#31 ardene

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 11:57

o.k. - so no one likes them. :)            They were my trial run to see how the concoction would work - I don't sell pens, though I've been known to give the odd one away.               These will stay with me, as virtually all my pens will, and though I am a great fan of patina and the aesthetics gained by the passing of time - none of these is a rare of important pen - they're commonly found examples, so I don't feel I've deprived history of something unique. 
Revitalizing can often allow the imprints to be seen a little more clearly, and of course there are those who do like to see a little more black.


I do like them. It gives a nice impression of what the pens must have looked like when they were new. Lets you imagine where the glimpse in the original buyer's eye might have come from. Thanks for the pictures.

#32 jaytaylor

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 13:15

Not tru. De-oxide a surface is totally posible for some kind of surfaces. The difficult task is recovery exactly the same superficial strucuture (at atomic level) that the material have before oxidation.

In the other Hans, I cant understand how Is possible that my country have better regulations about the formulations of the products that the USA.

 

 

Well, it isn't true in the sense of metallurgy production for instance but we are referring to reversal of an oxidised surface and I'm not convinced. To restore the original surface with no material removal.

 

You are referring to material addition. I'm interested in an example to support your position though. 



#33 OMASsimo

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 22:46

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. What some contributors call "oxidation" of BHR isn't oxidation in a chemical sense but disintegration of the vulcanized rubber. During vulcanization that makes the rubber hard, sulfur is forming chemical bonds between the threads of the polymer. Over time and exposure to light and unfavourable environment, these bonds may break again, setting free sulfur and softening the material. The sulfur is causing the brownish/yellowish discolouration and also the smell. Oxidation of the sulfur can lead to sulfuric acid that can accelerate disintegration of the material, especially in warm and humid environments. Therefore, first and foremost, the pen should be stabilized by neutralizing the acid and possibly removing the free sulfur. To the best of my knowledge, a mild solution of ammonia is most suitable for this task. This will darken the material to some degree. But I think that this aesthetic question is second to preserving the  object in the first place.



#34 siamackz

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 12:51

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. What some contributors call "oxidation" of BHR isn't oxidation in a chemical sense but disintegration of the vulcanized rubber. During vulcanization that makes the rubber hard, sulfur is forming chemical bonds between the threads of the polymer. Over time and exposure to light and unfavourable environment, these bonds may break again, setting free sulfur and softening the material. The sulfur is causing the brownish/yellowish discolouration and also the smell. Oxidation of the sulfur can lead to sulfuric acid that can accelerate disintegration of the material, especially in warm and humid environments. Therefore, first and foremost, the pen should be stabilized by neutralizing the acid and possibly removing the free sulfur. To the best of my knowledge, a mild solution of ammonia is most suitable for this task. This will darken the material to some degree. But I think that this aesthetic question is second to preserving the  object in the first place.

So, would you suggest say using Hoovers product to remove the brown layer and then use a mild ammonia solution to wipe off? Or just use the ammonia solution?

Either way, was is mild. I have a 99% pure ammonia solution. So, how would you suggest to use it? Mix it with what to dilute (not water right?)

Thanks!

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#35 OMASsimo

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 14:24

I cannot say anything about the product by Hoover because I don't know it and have no idea about it's composition or how it works. I only can offer a little bit of background on the chemistry of BHR and my very limited experience in restoration of BHR parts. 

 

As mentioned above, the use of ammonia solution is meant to remove the sulphurous acid (sorry, I accidentally and incorrectly wrote sulphuric acid above). It may also remove some of the sulfur from the breakdown of the polymer. However, the black colour comes from pigments embedded into the polymer, usually black carbon (soot). If the pigments are gone from the top layer of the material, this procedure will not restore it to its original black appearance. I don't know what the Hoover stuff does about this. I could imagine that it contains some vulcanizer to reinforce the polymer but there must be more to it.

 

And to answer your question, I use a 3% aqueous ammonia solution for cleaning and stabilizing BHR parts.



#36 PaulS

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 20:57

quote .......................  "I have a 99% pure ammonia solution. So, how would you suggest to use it? Mix it with what to dilute (not water right?)"

 

Not entirely sure what is meant by 99% pure  -  ordinarily, industrial strength ammonia is described as .880, and is not something to be used lightly  -  I wouldn't recommend using it at all  -  certainly not in connection with f.ps. 

At this level of strength is can burn and cause permanent respiratory problems, and destroys oxygen at the 100% level - in short it's a very dangerous liquid. 

This not to say that ammonia may not have some effect on HR in the sense of removing the top layer, but judging by the odour of M.H's product I'm not aware that ammonia forms part of his potion.

 

Water should not be used to clean or wipe down HR pens - this is an explicit instruction from M.H. - and his hand out specifically suggests that mineral oil is used to wipe down the pen to remove the jelly/potion so that a clean, blacker pen is revealed, prior to using a balm (mixture of waxes) that give the BHR a more or less permanent shine.

Water should not under any circumstances be put in contact with HR.

 

As we've already discussed, M.H's potion - in whatever way - removes the brown top layer from the surface of the pen - a surface that once was black, but has now degraded, and which when removed exposes a new surface which is more akin to the original colour of the pen.      As opposed to abrasion, Hoover's product appears not to affect fine chasing details.

 

I believe there are products that behave in the fashion of dyes, and instead of removing material are intended to simply re-colour the pen.

 

All of which is a bit academic if you are in the 'leave well alone camp because I like to see patina and wish my pens to remain as time has forged them' brigade. :)

 

P.S.    to short circuit people's curiosity and inquisitiveness re M.H's potion, I'd suggest buying some and assessing the results.


Edited by PaulS, 22 June 2019 - 21:35.


#37 Vintagepens

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 21:49

It might be more accurate to think of Mark's "deoxidizer" as "fading remover" instead. As noted above, the fading process isn't strictly oxidation.

The removal of fading isn't through surface removal alone. I've tried the stuff, and it just doesn't take off that much material (unlike some other reagents, which will strip down to unfaded material, leaving a rough and pebbly surface). From what I can tell, it works by removing *some* of the faded surface while soaking into what remains, making it look darker in the same way that an oil stain does when rubbed into wood. A pen so treated may look black under normal lighting, but put it under bright light and it won't look so black at all -- more brown-orange. The surface is also left roughened, which is why it then has to rubbed with mineral oil to make it look shiny again, though this can leave it rather messy.



#38 praxim

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 22:15

I thought it had been established already that it is UV light which breaks down the HR bonds. Water exposes the damage caused by UV. Moisture in concert with sulphur broken out by UV will create a sulphurous acid which continues the damage. Keeping HR pens dry is good but wetting them is not a  problem without prior surface breakdown from UV. Water itself will not dissolve rubber, or one might wonder about the survival of hard rubber sections and feeds! Products like ammonia and acetone will dissolve rubber. If one does this at a slow rate then one can remove surface layers uniformly, preserving patterning.

 

A touch of mineral oil or a light silicone oil will enhance appearance and can be used for surface cleaning of residues. Keep all waxes far away, because many of them contain acids which will re-start problems.

 

I have been quietly using the processes implied above for a while now, but very rarely treat a pen anyway so do not have it as a formalised set of concentrations, times, and steps. 


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#39 Toby-B

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 19:42

:)  love the thought of seduction by a pristine BCHR - such erotic sentiments - but the warning of being wary of buying a treated pen is very real, so caution always if you're someone who ordinarily wouldn't buy such pens.               An honest seller should always inform the buyer if the pen has been renovated in this way.

What is annoying is that for whatever reasons some BHR pens seem never to oxidize.

-

There is one very regular eBay seller of vintage pens who has blocked me from bidding for his pens just for having dared to ask him if his pens have been re-blacked. He could have just said yes or no. 


Edited by Toby-B, 28 June 2019 - 19:44.


#40 Toby-B

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 19:51

 

Perfect illustrations of what worn pens look like when re-blackened! I don't know about anyone else, but I find the 'before' pics to be much more aesthetically pleasing than the 'after' pics!?!

-

I too prefer the 'before' pics; they shout history.








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