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Noodler's Inks - Production And Shipping, How Long Does It Take?

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#21 Bibliophage

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 19:14

 

 

Uhh - - - automobile dealers?

Tesla.



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#22 cheap-skate

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 21:45

As an update, I'm just letting the first shop stew in its juices. I'll see when the Black Eel and HoD arrive, even though the shop's kind of weird I guess I'll get my stuff in the end. After some searching I found another store close by that stocks Noodler's Black and since that's closest to the ink I originally wanted for a very acceptable price, that's what I'm going for now. It's not too bad, actually, because I was already doubting between Black and HoD so now I get to try both. See if one really is darker than the other (not that it matters because handmade batches vary, I know). It's alright. Maybe I can add something meaningful to the comparisons that others have already posted. 

 

Just adding in on here, I got the Rohrer & Klingner Documentus Black from Seitz-Kreuznach, where I believe it is still in stock (and free shipping in the EU over 15€ if I remember that right), and it's an excellent, dark dark, waterproof, lightfast, archival ink.

 

It also costs 19€ for a single 50mL bottle, but if you really need a blacker than black ink that can survive being dropped in a flowing river without even smudging, this is the one.

 

*nb: because it's pigment based, it's finicky, and riddled with warnings on the box and bottle screaming at you to not let this ink dry out in your pen.  So it may be too heavy duty for everyday needs unless you clean your pen regularly.

 

Thanks for the suggestion! I probably should have gone for this ink rather than the Platinum, from what I can quickly tell in reviews the Dokumentus is more resistant to spread and feathering. Who knows, maybe I'll give this ink and some other pigment inks a try and post a comparison review on all sorts of papers.  

 

I was delighted to check out Seitz-Kreuznach, by the way. I've never seen a web shop where, on the main page, one can buy both a Kaweco Perkeo and a bunch of KNIVES at the same time. Absolutely fantastic.

 

I'm not too intimidated by pigmented inks despite the scary stories I read about them on the interwebs, my current Platinum is also pigmented and I've never had any issues with it despite accidentally leaving it in my Kaküno untouched for weeks (guilty) - although I wouldn't put it in an expensive pen (but I don't own those anyway so I'm good to go). 

 

 

As least the staff there essentially told me they were going to receive a shipment of inks from Noodler's (presumably what the store ordered/backordered) in late April, and then when the end of April has come and gone, they just said, "Sorry, we looked but the shipment we received did not contain any bottles of what you ordered." That I could trust was not an untruth.


I haven't tested my bottle of Perle Noire yet (even though I have inked a pen with it), but from my testing last night, Aurora Black isn't worth a dental dam when it comes to water resistance.


The steel EF nib on my Rotring 400 astounds me as to how fine it is. Not finer than my Sailor Promenade's 14K gold EF nib, but on par. The steel EF nib on my Diplomat Aero is alright (and I think unintentionally stubby, which suits me fine), and some of the 18K gold EF nibs on my Aurora (Ottantotto and Optima) pens are acceptably fine.


Huh? What's not fit-for-purpose with blank and lined notebooks from Rhodia, Clairefontaine, Midori, Maruman, Apica, Kokuyo, and dozens of brands you could probably easily buy on Amazon.com (even though it won't now ship those third-party products to me in Australia)? Do you specifically want eight perforated pages at the rear, a printed index page at the front, and page numbers already printed on each page?

 

Yeah, they told me the same thing, it's just that I didn't have a whole lot of faith left in what they say. But I'm sure you're right, I just found it a bit odd that out of all the Noodler's inks they probably have on backorder, one of the staples was taking so long - especially when I do see it available in the U.S. so Mr. Tardiff must have it. 

 

It's true, LAMY's EF is especially non-fine, not necessarily a reflection of all Western nibs. In a store where I could try the nibs out I even saw no difference between LAMY EF and F, and only a tiny difference between F and M... Still, if I compare the Diplomat Aero's Jowo #6 EF nib (at the Goulet Nib Nook) to what I have in my Kaküno, the latter blows the former out the water when it comes to purely how-tiny-can-a-nib-get. And when I think 'extra-fine', I really think 'tiny'. Although I'm positive the Diplomat is a lot more durable and comfortable to write with, the Kaküno is super scratchy. 

 

And yes, I am that specific when it gets to the products I use. I'm not able to buy a lot, so if I buy something - even if it's just an 18 eur notebook - I make sure it's exactly what I want. With daily notepads I'm less discriminating because I'm lucky to have stores that stock €1,- Oxford exercise booklets nearby and they're more than fine, but a bullet journal I'll be using intensively all year? I can't afford a wrong purchase. Having to shelve my Platinum ink for the time being because I found out it's not the easiest ink the hard way is bad enough for me as it is... (I saw a review where they already warned users for feathering. Too late. Like, I could have known if I'd done my pre-purchase research just a bit better and immediately went for a well-behaved ink.)

 

It took me 3 months to pick the LT1917 and I compared everything. I don't care for perforated pages, but I do like page numbers because otherwise I'll get lost in my own bullet journal and having them pre-printed saves me time, which I really do appreciate.

I wanted to be able to draw diagrams to track things and lined paper doesn't make that easy. Blank paper is my enemy, I want consistency in my handwriting and without guides I go all over the place. 

I also found that the LT uses a very light grey barely-there ink to print their grids, and it may sound insignificant, but to me it's important. I dislike pages that look like they have black chicken wire over them (looking at you, Quo Vadis). But I do want grid paper instead of dot matrix because I've tried dots and it just doesn't work for me (bye Rhodia...). So the LT offered everything I looked for, with good quality paper. Not Clairefontaine or Muji-level maybe, but solid. 

 

Many of the other brands you mentioned I couldn't see and sort of appraise in person (because it's on Amazon) and took quite a lot for shipping with third-party sellers, even where I live. Returning an item doesn't always bring those shipping costs back. So why take that risk when there are also notebooks closer to home? So I picked the Leuchtturm, which I could inspect and buy in a local store because that darn brand is everywhere

 

This is just... how I spend money. This amount of thinking about exactly what I want before spending €18,- is normal for me. I also think that's the whole point of luxury goods, really. They're there to add to your life and offer a great experience every moment you put your pen on the paper, so better make sure it's worth it. 

 

 

 

 

Uhh - - - automobile dealers?

 

LMAO

 

Tesla.

 

705.gif



#23 XYZZY

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 00:04

Just FYI:  even here in the US where the ink is made Noodler's inks are distributed to retailers through a distributor.  In the US it's Luxury Brands, I have no idea about other countries.  Maybe your shop does talk to Nathan Tardiff, but I would expect there are more opportunities for confusion than just "Shop + Nathan".



#24 A Smug Dill

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 02:38

my current Platinum is also pigmented and I've never had any issues with it despite accidentally leaving it in my Kaküno untouched for weeks (guilty) - although I wouldn't put it in an expensive pen


I've had it in my Pilot 'Hannya Shingyo' pen for months (although I don't leave it untouched for weeks) without flushing or refilling, and there hasn't been a problem.
 

I just found it a bit odd that out of all the Noodler's inks they probably have on backorder, one of the staples was taking so long - especially when I do see it available in the U.S. so Mr. Tardiff must have it.


There's a difference between a retailer (in the US or elsewhere) having bottles of it available in stock to fulfil new orders, or operating on a pass-through (or Just-In-Time) ordering basis, so in spite of a positive number N of US retailers (presumably) being able to fulfil orders for that particular ink, it is certainly not conclusive that Noodler's is able to supply and ship new stock of it today to a shop if asked.
 

Still, if I compare the Diplomat Aero's Jowo #6 EF nib (at the Goulet Nib Nook) to what I have in my Kaküno, the latter blows the former out the water when it comes to purely how-tiny-can-a-nib-get. And when I think 'extra-fine', I really think 'tiny'. Although I'm positive the Diplomat is a lot more durable and comfortable to write with, the Kaküno is super scratchy.


Never mind me, I only have 150 or so pens with F and EF nibs (not counting my fiancée's) as my frame of reference — including various steel and gold EF nibs from Pilot, Platinum and Sailor — as my frame of reference for what is 'fine'. :) Objectively, how thin or thick a line do you require your nibs to produce?
 

And yes, I am that specific when it gets to the products I use. I'm not able to buy a lot, so if I buy something - even if it's just an 18 eur notebook - I make sure it's exactly what I want.


Good on you. I personally don't believe in the existence of perfect products — that ticks every box in terms of exactly what I want — in the market, and I expect every retail purchase of mine to be (preferably) a known compromise of pros and cons, and/or reveal something imperfect (or some trait I neither want nor like) subsequently after some period of use or storage.
 

Having to shelve my Platinum ink for the time being because I found out it's not the easiest ink the hard way is bad enough for me as it is…


If feathering and/or bleed-through is observed on just about every paper on which I've written with a given ink (e.g. Noodler's Polar Green, Noodler's Polar Brown, Noodler's Prime of the Commons Blue-Black contract ink — see the commonality there?), then I blame the ink. If an ink doesn't feather and doesn't bleed-through on some number (greater than one) of Japanese and French paper products — and I never use Tomoe River or Midori for testing or as a point of reference in that regard — then I conclude that a particular paper product itself is not fit for my purpose if I see feathering and/or bleed-through on it when writing with the ink in question.

I don't think Platinum Carbon Black is the 'easiest' ink. It is the most waterproof and resilient, as far as I can tell, and I don't expect every paper (including crowd favourites here like HP Premium whatever, which I don't use) to deal with it equally well. I'm actually surprised how many types of paper I've tested that don't have a problem with PCB.
 

(I saw a review where they already warned users for feathering. Too late. Like, I could have known if I'd done my pre-purchase research just a bit better and immediately went for a well-behaved ink.)
_...‹snip›...
So the LT offered everything I looked for, with good quality paper.


I do have a whole box of Leuchtturm1917 hardcover A5 journals here, and I like its features and (generally) its paper, but I certainly don't blame PCB for not playing nice if there is feathering or bleed-through on it. PCB isn't exactly what I want, and neither is Sailor kiwaguro pigment ink, or any of the ten or so other black inks I have; I just need to find out which one is the best compromise to use with Leuchtturm1917 journals, and part of that discovery necessarily involves writing on a page and leaving artefacts I don't like to see (feathering, bleed-through, smudging, etc.) in the journal, unless I dedicate one of those journals for ink and pen testing.
 

Not Clairefontaine or Muji-level maybe, but solid.


MUJI paper products are very hit-and-miss when it comes to dealing well with fountain pen use. The one product that is expressly marketed as being resistant to show-through/bleed-through is anything but, although ironically it dealt with PCB well enough.  
 

Many of the other brands you mentioned I couldn't see and sort of appraise in person
_...‹snip›...
So I picked the Leuchtturm, which I could inspect and buy in a local store because that darn brand is everywhere.


I don't know what is normal retail practice where you live, but here in Australia providing samples of paper products (especially relatively expensive ones) in-store for shoppers to test for specific characteristics as they see fit is uncommon. Flipping through the pages of a new product not sealed in cellophane, and running one's fingertips over the surface of the paper, or even inspecting it under a loupe, can only 'reveal' so much. Nothing like actually writing on the page with one's pen and ink of choice, and it's not something I think retail stores ought to provide for at their cost to aid better purchase decision-making.
 

This is just... how I spend money. This amount of thinking about exactly what I want before spending €18,- is normal for me.


As a keen shopper and a business analyst, I'm all for rigorous due diligence, but that comes at a cost — and that cost must ultimately be borne by the consumer (as a collective) who stands to benefit from making informed, 'smart' or the 'right' purchasing decisions. If you expect every euro in the purchase price of a fit-for-purpose to be well-spent in exchange for "exactly what you want", then the budget for due diligence, information acquisition, experimentation, etc. to get to that point is necessarily 'extra' and committed prior to deciding on a purchase.
 
If a consumer has €100 set aside for discretionary spending, I think it'd be unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every euro within that budget will be materially gratifying, and nothing is 'wasted' or consumed in acquiring market intelligence and so on. Companies employ 'smart' people ($$$) and/or hire consultants ($$$$) to do research and due diligence for them ahead of what those companies cannot afford to fail to achieve in execution and acquisition, and I cannot think of a single logical reason why Joe Consumer ought to or 'deserves' to do better in terms of getting value for money. That's not a moral statement that consumers 'deserve' less than companies; they just don't inherently 'deserve' a better hit rate because they have less to spend and (in their minds) can 'less afford to' make poor purchasing decisions.
 
Anyway, literally taking a page out of my book, here a brief degree-of-feathering comparison between PCB and Sailor kiwaguro on Leuchtturm1917:
fpn_1559096234__platinum_carbon_black_vs


Edited by A Smug Dill, 29 May 2019 - 03:09.

Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

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#25 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 06:18

Jeez, I would move on from Noodlers inks. They're ok, but not great. Definitely not worth all that hassle!



Agree. I have four or five and they only one that gets used with any regularity is Apache Sunset. My Noodler's Black is 5 yesrs old and still just barely at the bottom of the neck of the bottle. Considering how full Nathan fills those bottles, I haven't used much. I guess I got spoiled with Levenger Raven Black but afyer 50 ml of that I'm not interested anymore.

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#26 cheap-skate

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 11:16

Never mind me, I only have 150 or so pens with F and EF nibs (not counting my fiancée's) as my frame of reference — including various steel and gold EF nibs from Pilot, Platinum and Sailor — as my frame of reference for what is 'fine'. :) Objectively, how thin or thick a line do you require your nibs to produce?

 

 

I'm not really sure what to make of this, it's hard to read the tone of voice you intended here. I'm sure the pens and nibs you use are wonderful, well worth their respective prices and especially suitable for the writing you do. When it comes to my handwriting and what I want it to look like on a 5x5 grid, as-tiny-as-it-gets just looks the best. My handwriting easily gets smaller than what fits in the smallest Sèyes ruling. And so that's also my personal frame of reference for what I like to expect from 'extra fine'. That's why I'm very happy with my Kaküno, and with what I'm looking for in a pen I wouldn't want to switch it out for another, even a more expensive or luxurious pen, at least for bullet journaling. 

 

 

Good on you. I personally don't believe in the existence of perfect products — that ticks every box in terms of exactly what I want — in the market, and I expect every retail purchase of mine to be (preferably) a known compromise of pros and cons, and/or reveal something imperfect (or some trait I neither want nor like) subsequently after some period of use or storage.

 

 

Neither do I. I don't know how you see me, but I'm not naive. The LT also has some downsides that I knew about before spending (the weak elastic being the most grating), but it's still the product that best suited my needs. 

 

 

If feathering and/or bleed-through is observed on just about every paper on which I've written with a given ink (e.g. Noodler's Polar Green, Noodler's Polar Brown, Noodler's Prime of the Commons Blue-Black contract ink — see the commonality there?), then I blame the ink. If an ink doesn't feather and doesn't bleed-through on some number (greater than one) of Japanese and French paper products — and I never use Tomoe River or Midori for testing or as a point of reference in that regard — then I conclude that a particular paper product itself is not fit for my purpose if I see feathering and/or bleed-through on it when writing with the ink in question.

 

 

So much is obvious! Ultimately, the way an ink plays with a type of paper depends on so many variables (I'm willing to bet humidity and even temperature have to do with it more or less, and my space is humid which doesn't make things easier), there's no other way to know for sure than to just try yourself. But that applies to everything we use, ever. 

 

I don't think Platinum Carbon Black is the 'easiest' ink. It is the most waterproof and resilient, as far as I can tell, and I don't expect every paper (including crowd favourites here like HP Premium whatever, which I don't use) to deal with it equally well. I'm actually surprised how many types of paper I've tested that don't have a problem with PCB.

 


I do have a whole box of Leuchtturm1917 hardcover A5 journals here, and I like its features and (generally) its paper, but I certainly don't blame PCB for not playing nice if there is feathering or bleed-through on it. PCB isn't exactly what I want, and neither is Sailor kiwaguro pigment ink, or any of the ten or so other black inks I have; I just need to find out which one is the best compromise to use with Leuchtturm1917 journals, and part of that discovery necessarily involves writing on a page and leaving artefacts I don't like to see (feathering, bleed-through, smudging, etc.) in the journal, unless I dedicate one of those journals for ink and pen testing.
 


MUJI paper products are very hit-and-miss when it comes to dealing well with fountain pen use. The one product that is expressly marketed as being resistant to show-through/bleed-through is anything but, although ironically it dealt with PCB well enough.  

 

 

 

PCB sure isn't easy! But hey, now I know that from experience as well. It's still a wonderful ink that I think still does very well considering the fact it's literally tiny pigment particles floating around in water. I tried my best to make an educated guess based on the experience I have with PCB on Rhodia paper (fantastic, especially in the Platinum Desk pen) and what I heard about LT paper being good with fountain pen inks too. Not Rhodia-level but solid still. Well, now I know better! I just wish I figured it out before buying. 

 

 

I don't know what is normal retail practice where you live, but here in Australia providing samples of paper products (especially relatively expensive ones) in-store for shoppers to test for specific characteristics as they see fit is uncommon. Flipping through the pages of a new product not sealed in cellophane, and running one's fingertips over the surface of the paper, or even inspecting it under a loupe, can only 'reveal' so much. Nothing like actually writing on the page with one's pen and ink of choice, and it's not something I think retail stores ought to provide for at their cost to aid better purchase decision-making.

 

 

 

It certainly isn't normal business practice around here to just let people write in notebooks before buying. The LT was the only notebook that had the grid I was looking for, that is generally considered fountain pen friendly, and that I could hold in my hands and feel the pages and binding before buying. Feeling the pages showed me that the paper they use in the A5 notebooks is already of much better quality than the LT paper I already knew, namely in the B5 lined journals. Knowing about that before purchasing was very valuable to me. 

 

 

A Smug Dill, on 29 May 2019 - 04:38, said:

As a keen shopper and a business analyst, I'm all for rigorous due diligence, but that comes at a cost — and that cost must ultimately be borne by the consumer (as a collective) who stands to benefit from making informed, 'smart' or the 'right' purchasing decisions. If you expect every euro in the purchase price of a fit-for-purpose to be well-spent in exchange for "exactly what you want", then the budget for due diligence, information acquisition, experimentation, etc. to get to that point is necessarily 'extra' and committed prior to deciding on a purchase.

 
If a consumer has €100 set aside for discretionary spending, I think it'd be unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every euro within that budget will be materially gratifying, and nothing is 'wasted' or consumed in acquiring market intelligence and so on. Companies employ 'smart' people ($$$) and/or hire consultants ($$$$) to do research and due diligence for them ahead of what those companies cannot afford to fail to achieve in execution and acquisition, and I cannot think of a single logical reason why Joe Consumer ought to or 'deserves' to do better in terms of getting value for money. That's not a moral statement that consumers 'deserve' less than companies; they just don't inherently 'deserve' a better hit rate because they have less to spend and (in their minds) can 'less afford to' make poor purchasing decisions.

 

 

As a keen shopper and a business analyst, I'm all for rigorous due diligence, but that comes at a cost — and that cost must ultimately be borne by the consumer (as a collective) who stands to benefit from making informed, 'smart' or the 'right' purchasing decisions. If you expect every euro in the purchase price of a fit-for-purpose to be well-spent in exchange for "exactly what you want", then the budget for due diligence, information acquisition, experimentation, etc. to get to that point is necessarily 'extra' and committed prior to deciding on a purchase.

 
If a consumer has €100 set aside for discretionary spending, I think it'd be unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every euro within that budget will be materially gratifying, and nothing is 'wasted' or consumed in acquiring market intelligence and so on. Companies employ 'smart' people ($$$) and/or hire consultants ($$$$) to do research and due diligence for them ahead of what those companies cannot afford to fail to achieve in execution and acquisition, and I cannot think of a single logical reason why Joe Consumer ought to or 'deserves' to do better in terms of getting value for money. That's not a moral statement that consumers 'deserve' less than companies; they just don't inherently 'deserve' a better hit rate because they have less to spend and (in their minds) can 'less afford to' make poor purchasing decisions.

 

 

Again, I'm not sure what to make of your tone of voice. Are you arguing against my spending habits? 

 

But: like I said, I'm not naive, and you haven't actually told me anything I wasn't already aware of. I know just as well as you that everyone is bound to buy stuff they end up not liking as much as they thought. It's not just a normal, but even a valuable part of spending - knowing what you want depends on knowing what you don't want. I wouldn't have known 100% for sure that PCB isn't the ink for my situation if I hadn't bought and tried it. Regardless, because of my situation I need to prevent this from happening as much as I can.

 

Product quality is no linear scale. There is no single 'best' that will make all the consumers love a product most of all. All consumers ultimately want different things and so as a company you gotta pick your 'thing' with products and try to excel at that and sell it to as many as possible (and so, do some of the thinking for consumers), which as a business analyst of course you know better than I do. All this is just quite obvious. All I'm trying to do as Joelle Consumer is find whichever product has the qualities that I will actually appreciate. So no, I'm not going to rely on companies thinking for me in that sense. For all their smart people they don't know what I want. 

 

I'm also not sure what point you intend to make, in the end, with your argument about business analytics. There is no such thing as a perfect product, that much is clear. Obviously me having little money doesn't make the universe change its simple rules for me, allowing me to immediately find precisely what I'm looking for.

 

Just because I can't afford to make a purchase decision that turns out to be less gratifying that I had liked, doesn't mean it won't happen. I know that better than most. It just puts me in a bit of a tight spot, and that's why I really do the most I can to prevent buying the 'wrong' product, or: getting the product that will suit me and my needs best with as little trial and error as possible. If you'd like to help me with that, that's super cool. If not, that's cool too, I really understand. All I ask is that others understand the precarious position I'm in. This is not a situation in which I "think" I can't afford too many purchase mistakes, I really don't come from a well-off household and I have to make do or I won't have this hobby to enjoy at all. I can't buy notebooks just to see if I like them. Please don't assume I don't know my limitations. 

 

Ultimately, also based on the very last edited bit of your post:

 

"I'm a fountain pen enthusiast, but not your consultant (as a fellow consumer) to advise on getting better value-for-money from your discretionary spending or protecting your investment in the hobby. I like to share the particularly meritorious or disappointing traits of products I've used, through product reviews and replies to others' posts, but please don't expect (or ask) me to frame things specifically in terms of how it would apply to your choice of pens, inks and paper products, or satisfy your preferences for shadingsheenwetbroadcheap, et cetera."

 

So this isn't about business analytics, but about some type of misunderstanding. If you interpreted any part of my post as requesting, from the people of this forum or you in particular, to tell me precisely where and how to get exactly what I want, you misunderstood me. My initial question was: what do I make of this store's actions, and based on your (general you) experience, what would you do in this situation? And based on your experience, could you think of another ink that can offer me the qualities I'm looking for that I may not have thought or heard of? And many people gave their opinions and told me about their experience with this store, for which I'm very grateful. It has really helped me get a better perspective of my options.

 

Don't do things you don't want to do, obviously. If you don't like what I ask, or what you think I'm asking, you can always just click away. This type of conversation just seems unnecessarily tiring for the both of us. 

 

As for your feathering comparisons: yeah, I do see some feathering with PCB in your LT notebook there, I recognize it from mine as well. It's certainly not unreadable or unusable, it just doesn't look particularly pretty. For some reason, LT uses different paper in the A5 journals (better quality) than in the B5 journals (lesser quality, and I use the B5 for daily journaling). I use the LAMY in my B5, which writes significantly more wet than the other (much finer) nibs I use which only exacerbates the issue. PCB is just unusable in the B5 journal with the LAMY so I needed another ink anyway. So I figured, if I'm already getting a better-behaved ink, why wouldn't I also put that in the Kaküno to use in the A5 notebook as well so I can have zero feathering instead of some feathering in my bullet journal as well as my daily journal? 

 

And then the ink took 3 months to come!

 

I'll post some comparison pictures when I get home, maybe they can help someone in the future make their purchase decision! PCB on a LT1917 B5 journal is just terrible, I'll show you. 



#27 cheap-skate

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 11:26

Agree. I have four or five and they only one that gets used with any regularity is Apache Sunset. My Noodler's Black is 5 yesrs old and still just barely at the bottom of the neck of the bottle. Considering how full Nathan fills those bottles, I haven't used much. I guess I got spoiled with Levenger Raven Black but afyer 50 ml of that I'm not interested anymore.

 

Thanks for your input! Many fountain pen users seem divided on Noodler's. Some adore it, others find it meh at best. And some who just call the whole brand vastly overrated! From what I could tell, it does offer me the qualities I'm looking for and I could find it close-by after all. So I'll just give it a go. Maybe in a while I'll also be camp-meh, who knows.

 

I'd never heard of Levenger, looks like a beautiful black too! Low shading, neutral and opaque. I'll definitely keep this one in mind should I run out of ink again. Or maybe I'll get it for my mother instead of Black Eel. She loves a good black too. 



#28 A Smug Dill

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 12:15

I'm not really sure what to make of this, it's hard to read the tone of voice you intended here.


I have a 'reputation' here on FPN for being a big fan of narrow nibs and precisely controlled pen strokes, so you didn't really have to emphasise to me how one could be really discerning about what 'fine' is with regard to fountain pen nibs. However, I personally don't look to Goulet Pen, or any other retailer, or any review to inform me exactly how a nib I buy will (or ought to be expected to) perform; I try to buy one of everything I'm interested in (if I can afford it) to do the comparisons myself, keep using what I find I like, and commit the rest to languish in dark spaces inside a drawer or box. That's just how I roll, and that's all I was alluding to.
 

I'm sure the pens and nibs you use are wonderful, well worth their respective prices and especially suitable for the writing you do.


I have made my share of misjudgments or just unwise purchasing decisions. I dislike my Pelikan M815 even though I bought it at half price. I hated my Parker Sonnet gold cascade fountain pens, which weren't cheap. The much lauded (on here, anyway) Pilot Custom Heritage 912 with gold FA nib disagreed with me so much, I ultimately ripped it out from the section in frustration and snapped it in two with my fingers.

Life is too short to write with annoying pens.
 

Again, I'm not sure what to make of your tone of voice. Are you arguing against my spending habits?


Not at all. Like I said, due diligence is a good thing, and integral to being a 'smart' consumer. However, you kept emphasising how you don't have a lot of money to spend and (by my paraphrasing) want to make every euro you spend count, so how much of your discretionary spending budget have you set aside for acquisition of information (or product/market intelligence) and experimentation, at the end of which you won't have anything material to show for those euros spent, considering how you also stressed how you want to arm yourself with information to make the best purchasing decisions? That's what I'm wondering.
 

Regardless, because of my situation I need to prevent this from happening as much as I can.


I'm confident nobody likes 'wasting' their resources, if an easily achievable alternative is to turn every euro or dollar spent into something personally rewarding, and so it goes without saying that everyone wants to prevent poor purchasing decisions and wastage from happening, whether one's monthly discretionary spending budget is $100 or $100,000.

I don't understand why some people think having a more limited budget makes them special or different in that regard. I think we fellow consumers are all equals, our dollars are as 'good', valuable and precious as anyone else's; yet so many people seem to think I'm denigrating them when I tell them they're not any 'less', but also not any more, special or deserving of high-quality market intelligence and/or decision-making support in their own consumerism. How can someone perceive affront to be treated as an equal and as impartially as everyone else?
 

I'm also not sure what point you intend to make, in the end, with your argument about business analytics. There is no such thing as a perfect product, that much is clear. Obviously me having little money doesn't make the universe change its simple rules for me, allowing me to immediately find precisely what I'm looking for.


I'm arguing that decision-making support comes at a cost, to individuals consumers and commercial businesses alike. Every company I've worked for knows it (takes time and) costs money to get high-quality (but still incomplete, and thus imperfect) information, yet most of the fellow consumers with whom I have interact seems not to factor it in as a necessary expense when they want to get the 'best' value-for-money out of whatever purchases to which they eventually commit. I just cannot relate to that.
 

Ultimately, also based on the very last edited bit of your post:


That's my signature block that is automatically attached to every post I make; I didn't edit it to send you a message in particular. I've posted several paper and ink reviews in the past week or so, and I just wanted to make my position and my motivations clear to readers.
 

So this isn't about business analytics, but about some type of misunderstanding. If you interpreted any part of my post as requesting, from the people of this forum or you in particular, to tell me precisely where and how to get exactly what I want, you misunderstood me.


I don't think you were requesting that.
 

My initial question was: what do I make of this store's actions, and based on your (general you) experience, what would you do in this situation?


The boss of that shop and I have a good commercial relationship, so I try to be nice enough about it, including not making it wear the additional expense of sending me parts of my orders piecemeal as the items come into stock (even though at times the staff seems keener than I am to send my orders in multiple shipments). On the other hand, I want what I want, and if it took my order (and charged my credit card) then I won't just let the staff cancel the order when it goes into "the too-hard basket", unless it has become impossible for them to get new stock because a product is discontinued. I will hound its staff again and again, every two or three weeks, until they fulfil my outstanding orders completely; and I don't buy from it anything I want 'urgently' any more.
 

And based on your experience, could you think of another ink that can offer me the qualities I'm looking for that I may not have thought or heard of?


I have not come across another black ink, other than PCB, that is waterproof (i.e. "doesn't budge once dry"); but then I haven't tried the Rohrer & Klingner Dokumentus line of inks. My first instinct would be to change the media on which I write what I need to keep intact and legible in the face of contact with water. Sailor kiwaguro will not disappear from the page even if you throw the journal into a bath to soak for an hour, but that doesn't mean the writing will remain legible from the smeared colours.

The only way for me to know whether R&K Dokumentus black ink will feather or bleed-through Leuchtturm1917 paper, and/or appear "blacker than black" on it, is to buy a bottle and write with it (and quite possibly marring the journal with feathering and bled-through ink marks, if it doesn't work out). I'm not curious enough to do that, but if I was in your position I would; however, I understand you don't want to do that, and so that's an impasse. Relying on others' anecdotes is not how I base my critical purchase decisions, and so I wouldn't recommend that course of action to you either.


Edited by A Smug Dill, 29 May 2019 - 12:36.

Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

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#29 Enkida

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 14:06

Seitz-Kreuznach is a fun shop that has never let me down, even when I had to make a return.  Then again I'm in Germany and so are they, but... extremely happy with their offerings and CS.

 

Anyway my point:  I use Leuchttturm A5 journals for nearly everything and I do have a bottle of Documentus Black.  So I took my FPR Ultra Flex nib and flex wrote with Documentus Black in it, and there was only the barest of bleedthroughs.  I thought that information might be useful to share in this thread based on reading through, and so I will follow up with pictures.  But FYI.  It's a nice ink.  I have not run it under water yet because I like my notebook, but I trust Vis's review on testing these things (see last photo of submerged inks).

 

I purposely left this picture large because my camera is a freakin' potato and nothing will help that.  But on the left page that is Diamine Eclipse in a M nib (Kaweco Perkeo) and the right page with poetry is Rohrer & Klingner Documentus Black in the FPR Ultra Flex, flexed obviously.  I put the left page in because the front of that page also had some flex writing poetry on it in Documentus, so you can see the bleedthrough with heavy flex.  Which is admittedly not as much as I expected, which is why my cheap ass when back over the back of that page and ended up using it for different notes, ahhaha.  Enjoy, hope it helps .)

 

edit: ooh the website autosizes.  Well, link to full size image if you want to inspect bleedthru: https://ibb.co/YBFFQXn

 

documentus-b.jpg


Edited by Enkida, 29 May 2019 - 14:38.

sig2.jpgsig1.jpg

 

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#30 A Smug Dill

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:31

If feathering and/or bleed-through is observed on just about every paper on which I've written with a given ink (e.g. Noodler's Polar Green, Noodler's Polar Brown, Noodler's Prime of the Commons Blue-Black contract ink see the commonality there?), then I blame the ink.

Colour me surprised, but I just discovered that Prime of the Commons actually behaves much better on Leuchtturm1917 A5 80gsm journal paper, with no noticeable feathering and bleed-through. Not that it makes me regret giving away my mostly full bottle; I just don't trust it to behave well enough as a robust everyday writing ink, and its colour and other appearance properties aren't so enticing to earn it a place in the ranks of 'pretty' inks alongside Sailor Shikiori and Pilot Iroshizuku inks.

Now that I've covered a whole page from a Leuchtturm1917 A5 journal with different inks, and then soaked the sheet in a bath of warm water for 15 minutes or so, I think I have my conclusions as to the best and 'safest' inks (among what I have) to use with it. Not surprisingly, Sailor souboku and seiboku are in first and second place. Noodler's X-Feather is sorta halfway between Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor kiwaguro with regard to waterproofness, feathering and bleed-through, but it has a major drawback of its own in actual use, which spoils it as the compromise solution for a black ink.
Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

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Don't think 'cos I'm talking, we're friends

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#31 cheap-skate

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 19:47

I have a 'reputation' here on FPN for being a big fan of narrow nibs and precisely controlled pen strokes, so you didn't really have to emphasise to me how one could be really discerning about what 'fine' is with regard to fountain pen nibs.

 

Congrats on your rep. Follow up question: so? Look, I have no intention of letting things escalate, but I do want to let you know I think you're being rude to me. Yes, really. 

 

You knew I was new here and so I had no way of knowing about your 'reputation'. And really, does it matter that you have it? I never emphasised how discerning one can get with nibs, I'm assuming that everyone here is as discerning as I am, in fact likely more than I amwhen it comes to fountain pens in general because we're all mad enough to join a whole forum dedicated to them.

 

I only said that to me personally, EF means like a needlepoint even though others likely have different associations and preferences that come to their minds when they think of an EF nib based on their likes and needs. I said: I like my Kaküno because it offers me everything I could wish for. That's all. This was never a bloody match of who can stan the thinnest nib. 

 

And instead of jumping in with a "Hey, we're both super into extra fine nibs! That's cool!", you had to add in something vaguely passive-agressive about owning 150 pens and knowing your nibs. Like... Congrats?

 

 

However, I personally don't look to Goulet Pen, or any other retailer, or any review to inform me exactly how a nib I buy will (or ought to be expected to) perform; I try to buy one of everything I'm interested in (if I can afford it) to do the comparisons myself, keep using what I find I like, and commit the rest to languish in dark spaces inside a drawer or box. That's just how I roll, and that's all I was alluding to.

 

Ok, glad that works for you. Sounds like a shame to let good products waste away. And all I was ever alluding to was that your approach, although the best way to find what you like and dislike, is not an option for me. 

 

The much lauded (on here, anyway) Pilot Custom Heritage 912 with gold FA nib disagreed with me so much, I ultimately ripped it out from the section in frustration and snapped it in two with my fingers.

Life is too short to write with annoying pens.

 

I'm really struggling with how this was supposed to come across. Is this cool? Impressive? Indicative of a like mentality when it comes to pens and purchase decisions? Does this tell me you understand my desire to really, really love everything I buy and own because you feel the same? Because this really doesn't seem like something a mentally well-adjusted person would do, and it shows an incredible disregard for the value of a product even when you don't like it that much. 

 

Yes, life is too short to write with annoying pens, but our approaches to this philosophy are nothing alike. What I would do in such a case is let someone have a look at the nib to check for damages, and if all is in order and this is just what the pen is like, sell it to someone who will love it as much as it deserves. Apparently, there would have been plenty of them. 

 

Who snaps (expensive!) things in half just because they don't appeal to you personally?? 

 

 

Not at all. Like I said, due diligence is a good thing, and integral to being a 'smart' consumer. However, you kept emphasising how you don't have a lot of money to spend and (by my paraphrasing) want to make every euro you spend count, so how much of your discretionary spending budget have you set aside for acquisition of information (or product/market intelligence) and experimentation, at the end of which you won't have anything material to show for those euros spent, considering how you also stressed how you want to arm yourself with information to make the best purchasing decisions? That's what I'm wondering.

 

My issue with your 'wondering' is that based on my (objectively understandable) wish to pick the right product the first time around you question "how much of my budget I have set aside for acquisition of information and experimentation." Why is that something you're so bent on knowing? Of course, it isn't, you just want me to think about that for myself. So, better yet: why would you assume I don't allow for 'mistakes' at all? I obviously have no choice in that matter! Did you believe you posed a question that never occurred to me? What kind of airhead do you think I am? 

 

 

I'm confident nobody likes 'wasting' their resources, if an easily achievable alternative is to turn every euro or dollar spent into something personally rewarding, and so it goes without saying that everyone wants to prevent poor purchasing decisions and wastage from happening, whether one's monthly discretionary spending budget is $100 or $100,000.

I don't understand why some people think having a more limited budget makes them special or different in that regard. I think we fellow consumers are all equals, our dollars are as 'good', valuable and precious as anyone else's; yet so many people seem to think I'm denigrating them when I tell them they're not any 'less', but also not any more, special or deserving of high-quality market intelligence and/or decision-making support in their own consumerism. How can someone perceive affront to be treated as an equal and as impartially as everyone else?

 

The first sentence in this quote is as obvious as 'the sky is up'. Again, what sort of person do you think I am? 

 

And really, this is where all your 'constructive feedback' comes from, isn't it? I'm acting "special", like I deserve to be treated "different".

 

In reality, you don't understand jack about how spending money works when you have very little of it, because pal, if your dollars were equal to mine, you wouldn't be snapping nibs in half because they don't please you. You'd resell the damn pen. A dollar is a dollar is a dollar, but that dollar becomes a lot more precarious if it's one of the twenty you have instead of two hundred. That's how that works. No one likes wasting money, but someone with 10,000 to spend will find wrong purchases annoying, but for me it's a whole bunch more weeks of saving up for something else all over again. That's how it is for me and I'm not posting on here how much money I get to spend every month, nor what my other financial obligations are that rely on that same budget, to prove it. 

 

You don't understand my perspective. That's fine, be glad that you don't. But don't come at me with this sh*t. 

 

I'm not here for you implying I, as one of the financially constrained persons you're alluding to, might consider myself "more, special, or deserving of high-quality market intelligence and/or decision-making support in their own consumerism." I asked a question. If you like to answer, cool. If you don't, cool. Why are you starting these monologues? Did I make you dunk a page of your LT1917 in a bucket of water? Don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely grateful you were willing to share that information with me. And I'm positive it will be useful to others in the future, too. But don't make me digest a monologue bemoaning the extra attention I'm not entitled to (I never said I was??? Do we also have to establish other obvious truths? Flamingos are pink and water is wet??), and then go to these lengths. 

 

Oh, and don't go implying that you never meant to say I, specifically, did that, because why else bother bringing up your frustration with "some people" (who are like me)?

 

If you had not made unfounded assumptions about why I emphasize the fact I don't have much financial leeway, and instead maybe asked why I do that, I would have been able to tell you that I realise I'm asking for suggestions but I'm only able to follow through on one, maybe two of those. So I emphasized it in the interest of full disclosure, not attention grabbing. 

I know how excited and invested we all are into these products on this forum. I really, really wish I could buy all the inks and all the pens that ever piqued my interest and so join all of you in enjoying these amazing luxury goods in full. Trust me, I have a wish list. But I can't. And I simply didn't want anyone to think I'm not appreciative of the time they're taking by thinking about my situation and giving me these suggestions and seemingly disregarding them by not being able to give their favorite recommendations a try.

 

That was the reason why. And instead you're assuming I'm doing it so that... What, actually? The people of this forum collectively throw their notebooks into their baths to show me exactly which ink I should buy now? Because they feel sorry for me? And I want that because I'm entitled? I did it because entitled is the last thing I am. 

 

Also, my financial backdrop is the major reason the HoD situation got to me so much. It took me ages to arrive at the conclusion that that was most likely the ink I would love with enough certainty that I'd spend a bunch of money on it. And then this happens and I genuinely don't know what to think or do because I've never had an online purchase experience like this and I'm new in the fountain pen world and I don't know what to think. For all I knew this is perfectly normal in fountain pen land and I should just sit tight, in which case that's what I would have done. Is it alright with you if I vent some frustration about the situation? Maybe you find that a silly response - fine, in that case, just say nothing. Or you could maybe find some, like, empathy or something. 

 

The boss of that shop and I have a good commercial relationship, so I try to be nice enough about it, including not making it wear the additional expense of sending me parts of my orders piecemeal as the items come into stock (even though at times the staff seems keener than I am to send my orders in multiple shipments). On the other hand, I want what I want, and if it took my order (and charged my credit card) then I won't just let the staff cancel the order when it goes into "the too-hard basket", unless it has become impossible for them to get new stock because a product is discontinued. I will hound its staff again and again, every two or three weeks, until they fulfil my outstanding orders completely; and I don't buy from it anything I want 'urgently' any more.

 

Alright, cool, thank you for sharing. They sent me the stuff they had on hand automatically with a little note the Noodler's were coming in another 3 weeks, so that was alright. I'll just let their staff simmer away on their own, my replacement Noodler's is coming in 2 days from the other shop I found. I'll see the HoD when it comes. 

 

 

The only way for me to know whether R&K Dokumentus black ink will feather or bleed-through Leuchtturm1917 paper, and/or appear "blacker than black" on it, is to buy a bottle and write with it (and quite possibly marring the journal with feathering and bled-through ink marks, if it doesn't work out). I'm not curious enough to do that, but if I was in your position I would; however, I understand you don't want to do that, and so that's an impasse.

 

Cool & entirely understandable, I'm glad that Enkida happened to have a writing sample lying around! 

 

 

Relying on others' anecdotes is not how I base my critical purchase decisions, and so I wouldn't recommend that course of action to you either.

 

For someone whose opinion on that matter was never asked you give it out very freely. I'm asking if anyone happens to have experiences with other inks. On a forum. That's what those are for. 

 

And again, you wouldn't rely on 'other people's anecdotes' and instead try things for yourself because that's the easiest and best option for you. I'd do the same if I had that option but I don't. So not only is your opinion on my spending habits uncalled for, it's also wildly inappropriate for my situation, which only shows a complete disregard for, well, me.

 

 

Colour me surprised, but I just discovered that Prime of the Commons actually behaves much better on Leuchtturm1917 A5 80gsm journal paper, with no noticeable feathering and bleed-through. Not that it makes me regret giving away my mostly full bottle; I just don't trust it to behave well enough as a robust everyday writing ink, and its colour and other appearance properties aren't so enticing to earn it a place in the ranks of 'pretty' inks alongside Sailor Shikiori and Pilot Iroshizuku inks.

Now that I've covered a whole page from a Leuchtturm1917 A5 journal with different inks, and then soaked the sheet in a bath of warm water for 15 minutes or so, I think I have my conclusions as to the best and 'safest' inks (among what I have) to use with it. Not surprisingly, Sailor souboku and seiboku are in first and second place. Noodler's X-Feather is sorta halfway between Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor kiwaguro with regard to waterproofness, feathering and bleed-through, but it has a major drawback of its own in actual use, which spoils it as the compromise solution for a black ink.

 

Obviously, I've just been very frank with you, but I do hope you realise that doesn't detract at all for the fact that again, I'm genuinely very grateful you went to these lengths to try to help me out. 

 

Just wish it didn't have to go like this. And if you'd read my original question, you would find I find waterproofness less important than saturated blackness, and if you'd read all of my last update instead of only the parts you wanted to comment on, you would have seen I already made up my mind about the Noodler's Black, so case closed. So really, why first comment on how I'm acting entitled to others slaving away for me, and then take the whole effort to write tests and soak the paper? 

 

I consider this 'conversation' closed now, this isn't going anywhere. I'm not going to reply anymore. But I do hope I showed you why your approach to me and my situation has been less than stellar. 



#32 cheap-skate

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 20:03

Seitz-Kreuznach is a fun shop that has never let me down, even when I had to make a return.  Then again I'm in Germany and so are they, but... extremely happy with their offerings and CS.

 

Anyway my point:  I use Leuchttturm A5 journals for nearly everything and I do have a bottle of Documentus Black.  So I took my FPR Ultra Flex nib and flex wrote with Documentus Black in it, and there was only the barest of bleedthroughs.  I thought that information might be useful to share in this thread based on reading through, and so I will follow up with pictures.  But FYI.  It's a nice ink.  I have not run it under water yet because I like my notebook, but I trust Vis's review on testing these things (see last photo of submerged inks).

 

I purposely left this picture large because my camera is a freakin' potato and nothing will help that.  But on the left page that is Diamine Eclipse in a M nib (Kaweco Perkeo) and the right page with poetry is Rohrer & Klingner Documentus Black in the FPR Ultra Flex, flexed obviously.  I put the left page in because the front of that page also had some flex writing poetry on it in Documentus, so you can see the bleedthrough with heavy flex.  Which is admittedly not as much as I expected, which is why my cheap ass when back over the back of that page and ended up using it for different notes, ahhaha.  Enjoy, hope it helps .)

 

edit: ooh the website autosizes.  Well, link to full size image if you want to inspect bleedthru: https://ibb.co/YBFFQXn

 

documentus-b.jpg

 

Thanks so much for showing me this! No, don't run it under water... I'm confident any pigmented ink won't budge under running water, really. Pretty sure the only thing that moves that type of ink is fire (which... don't try that either lol)

 

You're right, the bleedthrough is actually comparable to what I'm seeing with my Platinum Carbon Black. Hence my hesitance to try other pigmented inks - I think a lot of them will behave in the same way. 

 

I think the thinness of the LT paper has a lot to do with this in the sense that most of it isn't actually bleedthrough, but extreme showthrough/ghosting. LT is of course susceptible to ghosting and I don't consider it a problem. Someone said in a YT review of LT that she actually found it charming, seeing so well that you're filling up your notebook like that and I'm inclined to agree! But in my B5 the ghosting with PCB became so extreme that reading my handwriting on both sides wasn't easy on the eyes anymore. Although I must admit that revisiting my old pages, it isn't nearly as bad as I remembered - in my memories, the PCB just took on more monstrous forms throughout time  :lticaptd: as if whole pages were soaked in black ink... It wasn't that bad, but bad enough to make writing kind of annoying instead of pleasing. 

 

I promised some pics of my own, I'm going to try to upload them! See if I can figure out how to do that. 


Edited by cheap-skate, 29 May 2019 - 20:11.


#33 Enkida

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 20:24

I have to caveat that I had poorly adjusted the feed and nib on my pen for that example above, so it was gushing ink like a stuck pig and making lines as wide as a sharpie, which it usually doesn't.  I suspect that if you were using a normal, or even an EF nib, there wouldn't be any bleedthrough at all.  Of course, since my EF Kakuno is currently in rotation with a massive Con-70 full of "more precious than gold" Sailor ChuShu ink, I can't yet test that theory with my finest nib.  This is all theoretical because a bottle of any ink will last you a really long time, so it's not like you're going to need to experience R&K Documentus at any point in the near future unless you accidentally tip over your bottle of Noodler's (don't do that! XD).  But just for reference, it's nice information to have.  I actually bought this ink for drawing with my EF Kakuno and Zebra G-hao an modded pens, because I didn't want to use something that could get as finicky as india ink in a fountain pen and I do want to occasionally watercolour over my doodles.  If I ever get around to doing that, I will try to share the results here, or at least somewhere on this forum. :)


Edited by Enkida, 29 May 2019 - 20:25.

sig2.jpgsig1.jpg

 

Events may be horrible or inescapable. Men always have a choice - if not whether, then how they endure.

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#34 cheap-skate

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 20:59

I have to caveat that I had poorly adjusted the feed and nib on my pen for that example above, so it was gushing ink like a stuck pig and making lines as wide as a sharpie, which it usually doesn't.  I suspect that if you were using a normal, or even an EF nib, there wouldn't be any bleedthrough at all.  

 

Omg LOL. True, your pics show significantly more bleedthrough than what I can see in my notebook. In fact I have no bleedthrough just parts of relatively heavy showthrough, more than I'd like at least. 

 

 

Of course, since my EF Kakuno is currently in rotation with a massive Con-70 full of "more precious than gold" Sailor ChuShu ink, I can't yet test that theory with my finest nib.  This is all theoretical because a bottle of any ink will last you a really long time, so it's not like you're going to need to experience R&K Documentus at any point in the near future unless you accidentally tip over your bottle of Noodler's (don't do that! XD).  But just for reference, it's nice information to have.  

 

giphy.gif

 

You're the man. (Or woman. #genderequality) 

 

 

I actually bought this ink for drawing with my EF Kakuno and Zebra G-hao an modded pens, because I didn't want to use something that could get as finicky as india ink in a fountain pen and I do want to occasionally watercolour over my doodles.  If I ever get around to doing that, I will try to share the results here, or at least somewhere on this forum. :)

 

Awesome, I hope to see it in the future! I though India Ink couldn't go in fountain pens at all? (Except Pelikan Fount India of course)

 

I always loved messing around with the real deal India Ink with my dip pens, back when I was still confident enough to draw. Growing up sure makes you lose some of that, doesn't it? But seriously, that ink is so beautifully shiny when it dries. I love it. 

 

Anyway, here are my pics! Like I said, it's not actually as bad as I remembered. But the issues were annoying enough to kind of take the joy out of writing. I now see I never used my LAMY for whole journal entries at all (even though that's what I bought it for), because it's that ugly looking. I continued to use the Platinum Carbon Desk pen even though it has a very uncomfortable grip for the size of my hands and fingers (small...). 

 

You may not be able to see the original pictures through the links to them (let me know if you can, then I can go the same route again in the future). I'm expecting the Noodler's come Friday so I'll post more complete and updated pictures then. Until that time, enjoy these pix with uh, fantastic late evening lighting. 

 

I'm going to bed now, night night... 

 

tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno3_400.jpg

 

https://66.media.tumblr.com/849b8353250550947e2356e8269e458d/tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno3_400.jpg 

 

tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno1_540.jpg

 

https://66.media.tumblr.com/55f93d46c7cda30f3609f627e0bc9bae/tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno1_540.jpg 

 

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https://66.media.tumblr.com/f9bbdd26fcf87f7fbdd33c3303a12a97/tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno2_540.jpg 

 

tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno4_400.jpg

 

https://66.media.tumblr.com/ff60af7d1c49850cfe923a8f9748bf83/tumblr_psa9lqedq81s5qgeno4_400.jpg 



#35 Enkida

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 21:14

I feel like I have to make a responsible fountain pen user safety announcement here:

 

NEVER PUT INDIA INK IN YOUR FOUNTAIN PENS - you are correct, this is a path to despair and destruction.  It's even a path to despair and destruction with your dip pen nibs if you don't rinse your nibs and keep them moist regularly while you're drawing or writing.  That being said, someone does make pens for holding india inks, or so I've heard on here.  Personally I was just using it with some vintage Rotring drafting fineliners that were designed for just that purpose and were most definitely NOT fountain pens.  I have no idea what the price of a modern Rotring drafting pen set might be, but they're really only of use to architechs and artists I would guess, and don't really have anything in common to do with fountain pens.

 

So again, just for the record... do NOT put india ink in fountain pens, anyone, please.  Nor white-out if you want "white" ink (apparently there are people that do this!  :yikes:  ).  These are both terrible, terrible ideas.  


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Events may be horrible or inescapable. Men always have a choice - if not whether, then how they endure.

- Lois McMaster Bujold


#36 Eclipse157

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 21:24

 

 See if one really is darker than the other (not that it matters because handmade batches vary, I know). It's alright. Maybe I can add something meaningful to the comparisons that others have already posted.

 

From what I've seen in pictures and reviews (I have HoD, not the "normal" noodler's black) Noodler's Bulletproof Black is kinda far from a deep, uniform, soul sucking black, whereas I can certify that HoD is much closer to that.

 

Regarding your pictures: your links to Tumblr don't work for me. I can see your grievances with PCB on LT paper tho, yea it's not pleasant to write when the ink doesn't behave. I'm currently journaling on Tomoe 52 right now, and it's the best paper I've had, even after considering that the extreme thinness results in a bit of see-through. The way that paper handles ink is nothing short of miraculous. Even Prime of the Commons (which I've seen mentioned here as a BAD behaving ink: can confirm) writes flawlessly on tomoe, and as an added bonus it shows a reddish sheen! Who'd have thought?! So, although unrequested, I'm giving you the advice: try tomoe river paper! It's bliss, it really adds to the pleasure of writing.



#37 txomsy

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 06:58

Here guys! I think the discussion was getting a bit out of hand. Experience has it. It took me long to learn that experience often gets in the way of communication.

 

You see, as you get expertise you start to take things that you commonly experience for granted and forget they weren't so when you were a newbie.

 

In this case, I think there is a difference in points of view from different experiences. A good reason for stopping before speaking. What I mean is this:

 

In what follows, remember I am a cynic.

 

In a private company, it is all about money making. From that point of view everything costs money. Even as a "user", when you are working hard for money, any time "invested" on market research is time not devoted to making money or to "monetarily-valuable" activities (like that leisure time that is costing you so much work to get and pay for).

 

But when money is not at the center, things look different. You may lack money but have lots of "free" time (e.g. if you are a student... or a University professor, who'll be terribly busy but will have lots of "free" student labor). Then, doing (market) research is something that comes for "free" (other than running costs like an Internet connection or transport or basic materials).

 

In Project Management a triangle is often used: money, time and labor, you can pick any at the cost of the others.

 

So let's  not forget that our priorities need not be valid for everybody else.

 

On a related line: I am most happy with Noodler's inks. But then, around here it is actually difficult to find fountain-pen unfriendly paper. Or if you prefer it is easy to find cheap fp-friendly paper. Well, it has been until recently, now it I start seeing copy paper with some feathering, but up to a year ago, I had to really go "cheap" to get really "bad" paper. Standard paper is at a minimum 80g. so little bleed-through usually with most inks. Yeah, I can get €1 notebooks that may misbehave on some pages but not others. And usually by simply running my finger over the surface or flipping a page The worst paper I have is a package of A5 leafs dated from the 70s and even these are inconsistently bad and may be cured by using a thinner nib.

 

What I want to say is that by simply living in one part of the world or the other, where cultural expectations on paper/ink/nibs/whatever are different, your results may vary wildly. So, one has to be careful in extrapolating.

 

I can very well see how cheap-skates experience of browsing through shops may be normal, as I've seen it all the same in France, Germany, Italy, Spain... the culture around in many shops is still like that. And you don't expect to buy things at physical shops if you cannot try them first --that's the whole (most would say the only) point for retail shops. You are also more prone to admit that the items you buy may have been tested by other customers first. Well, yes, that's less so on the extremes, but even so, it's not unusual to ask "may I try it first?", and if you're said "no", never return.

 

But I can also see how in a vast Country like Australia or USA with less population density small shops will be wary of using any item for testing and risk losing valuable income.

 

 

First time I was in Turkey, I remember being looking around and despite saying so, sellers asking me to still stop for a tea and a conversation, even if I wouldn't buy anything. Same in many other Muslim Countries. And sellers refusing to sell things unless you tried them first (or they trying it for you and in front of you) to ensure you were happy with your purchase. OTOH you'd be expected also to bargain even the cheapest things... to also save on money. Time and labor in these cultures are strained to maximize profit and satisfaction by default (nobody accounts for that as a "loss").

 

As pointed, oriental pens tend to write thinner because symbols are more complex and dense (taken to the extreme: you pack a whole word in the space of an occidental letter). Occidental pens are designed to write with more space around lines, and that requires thicker lines so they are not lost in white and are easier to read. Unless you want to save (paper, space, time...) and do write tiny, tiny letters.

 

I can see how an office-worker may not mind using large notebooks. And how a field-worker will prefer smaller pocket-sized ones. I can see how one may not mind using large writing and wide nibs for signatures and the other may want to pack as much information on as less space as possible using small writing in EF nibs on A7 notebooks.

 

Different cultures, different experiences, different expectations. Problems in communication.



#38 txomsy

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 07:33

To illustrate:

 

This is a sample from the 70's when I was still in school (yeah, I'm that old, from the times when everybody was required to learn Latin), written in the cheapest paper I could afford at the times and written using an FP. I can't obviously remember the ink, but it must have been Parker Quink, Waterman or less likely Pelikan. I'd bet for Quink.

 

fpn_1559200521__20190530_085925.jpg

 

This one is from even "cheaper" paper (to me at least) It dates from 1982, and it is the back of poll voting paper (I got my hands on a box of unused votes after elections and used it for note taking) to save money. Also FP. This I can say it was Shaffer's Green (it wasn't labelled as Skrips here, but it was the one in crystal bottles with a reservoir).

 

fpn_1559200876__20190530_090047.jpg

 

 

The next one is from loose-leafs, cheap paper, the uncoated one, you know that which seems like newspaper at the tact. It is dated also from the 80's (I'd say 84-85). Also written with an FP.

 

fpn_1559201048__20190530_090251.jpg

 

 

And finally, these were written last year, on paper from the 70's I still keep around. This is even worst paper, among the worst I've used, I'd say. The clearer blue ink is Noodler's Baystate Blue, well known as a wet, very prone to feathering and show-through ink. Undiluted. The other blue, I'm not so sure. You can see how in one page BSB feathers and in the other it is much less. And also, how in the page where it does behave netter, the other ink -which should be muh, much better behaved- looks worst (quality changes from one region of the sheet to the other so much).

 

fpn_1559201416__20190530_090534.jpg

 

 

 

 

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So, that is why I am so keen on using "YMMV".

 

And yes, I should learn to take pictures with my cell phone. I know.



#39 cheap-skate

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:25

NEVER PUT INDIA INK IN YOUR FOUNTAIN PENS - you are correct, this is a path to despair and destruction.  It's even a path to despair and destruction with your dip pen nibs if you don't rinse your nibs and keep them moist regularly while you're drawing or writing. 

 

That's what I thought! I used to have one of these things:

 

220px-Kroontjespen-2.JPG

 

And I never cleaned the poor thing. It's currently covered in what I estimate to be... Five? Six? Seven? layers of caked-on dried up India Ink. Oops. 

 

 

 

From what I've seen in pictures and reviews (I have HoD, not the "normal" noodler's black) Noodler's Bulletproof Black is kinda far from a deep, uniform, soul sucking black, whereas I can certify that HoD is much closer to that.

 

Regarding your pictures: your links to Tumblr don't work for me. I can see your grievances with PCB on LT paper tho, yea it's not pleasant to write when the ink doesn't behave. I'm currently journaling on Tomoe 52 right now, and it's the best paper I've had, even after considering that the extreme thinness results in a bit of see-through. The way that paper handles ink is nothing short of miraculous. Even Prime of the Commons (which I've seen mentioned here as a BAD behaving ink: can confirm) writes flawlessly on tomoe, and as an added bonus it shows a reddish sheen! Who'd have thought?! So, although unrequested, I'm giving you the advice: try tomoe river paper! It's bliss, it really adds to the pleasure of writing.

 

Thanks for sharing! And darn it I'll have to find another way to share pics. 

 

I've heard so many people sing Tomoe River's praises at this point that I do hope to try it one day! I remember trying Clairefontaine paper for the first time, I felt like was about to float away that's how light everything felt. For some reason Oxford paper is also really, really smooth and even my PCB behaves like a dream on it, with nicely dark, super crisp lines. I would especially love to try out Tomoe River with a 'true' sheening ink, like Organic's Studio Nitrogen or something. I've heard the results are stunning especially because the paper just... smoothly carries the ink, instead of sucking it all up. 

 

To give it another try, maybe this works: 

 

https://66.media.tumblr.com/55f93d46c7cda30f3609f627e0bc9bae/tumblr_psb571RRa71trd3g7o1_1280.jpg 

 

 

To illustrate:

 

This is a sample from the 70's when I was still in school (yeah, I'm that old, from the times when everybody was required to learn Latin), written in the cheapest paper I could afford at the times and written using an FP. I can't obviously remember the ink, but it must have been Parker Quink, Waterman or less likely Pelikan. I'd bet for Quink.

 

Oh yeah, the discussion did get out of hand, but to me that whole interaction is closed now. Nothing left to say. 

 

Thanks for all the comparison shots! The feathering in that last writing sample nearly made me cry, that looks terrible. I also learned some Latin and even some ancient Greek in middle school, but I'm pretty sure I've forgotten all of it already anyway. Something with, rosa, rosae, rosarum, rosis, rosas, rosis... I'm really messing that up. I don't know how I managed with tests, I always mixed up all the verb conjugations lol. But I could still translate texts pretty well. For our finals we translated the Metamorphoses, so that was fun! The previous year had Seneca to translate all year, talk about boring...



#40 cheap-skate

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:26

 

I can't even see the image when I click on the link myself from here. It's on my own blog! Psht, I'll find something else. 







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