Tomoeriverfp-Graphilo Dissappointment

[mke]

I bought TomoeRiver FP (52g/m2) loose leaf and a Graphilo notebook - in the hope that ink would not bleed through and no ghosting would be visible.

As you can guess, it went wrong. While there is no bleeding through, the extreme ghosting is something I don't like.

Please recommend me paper/notebooks which do not show such effects.

 

TomoeRiver

 

 

 

 

Graphilo

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by mke

[XYZZY]

I like Tomoe River 68gsm, similar (but not identical) surface but less ghosting. There is ghosting, just much less. I would say 68's ghosting is similar to Leuchtturm if that means anything to you. I won't use 52 for the same reason as you, but everybody has different tolerance levels.

[mhguda]

Have you tried putting a dark sheet of paper underneath the page with the ghosting?

(To me, btw, that is not extreme, just so you know). I also find that if the page is on top of a pile of filled pages, the ghosting is not bothersome. In fact, to me, it is helpful - it serves as a quasi-guidesheet. But that's my mileage...

I sometimes like to write on tracing paper, and there I do find the ghosting extreme... still, I tend to use both sides of a page. I do put a sheet underneath the written-on page though. Usually. When not in a hurry...

[nibtip]

Have you tried Life Noble notebooks and notepads? Very smooth and no show through. Paper is 85gsm.

For instance

https://item.rakuten.co.jp/kdmbz/p34459/?scid=af_pc_etc&sc2id=af_117_0_10001056

https://item.rakuten.co.jp/kdmbz/p110993/?scid=af_pc_etc&sc2id=af_117_0_10001056

https://item.rakuten.co.jp/kdmbz/p71913/?scid=af_pc_etc&sc2id=af_117_0_10001056

And many more.

[TMLee]

Your ghosting (or shadow) is not extreme considering that this paper is superthin at 52g only.

 

Furthermore, its white (altho not much worse than their cream version)

 

Lighter coloured inks are not too bad.

Darker inks will be more obvious.

 

A simple solution round this distracting ghosting, is to place a black sheet of paper underneath. It will mask out completely all the distracting ghosting.

 

😊

[mke]

Thank you for all your answers.

 

@inkking

By chance I had a Life Noble notebook from a recent sell-out of a department store - and this is acceptable. Unfortunately, it is in cream - not in white.

I also tested Apica Premium C.D. notebooks. Not usable with wet ink/nib combinations - heavy bleed-through. I will need to recheck when these pens are filled with dry inks.

Clairefontaine e.g. is OK with Pelikan RB but not with wet inks.

 

@TMLee

The paperweight is not my concern, 80-100g is OK, I just want a notebook which has no ghosting.

I am still playing around (there are so many combinations) and find one which I can use with all my pens and inks.

 

First of all, I started measuring paper weights and thickness. I will publish the results in the near future.

[A Smug Dill]

Unfortunately, it is in cream - not in white.

_...‹snip›...

The paperweight is not my concern, 80-100g is OK, I just want a notebook which has no ghosting.

I am still playing around (there are so many combinations) and find one which I can use with all my pens and inks.

If your only requirements of note are that:

• the paper is white, not off-white or cream in colour;
• the product is a notebook (without any specific requirement for page size, orientation or binding method); and
• there is no show-through or bleed-through with "all your pens and inks" (which of course nobody else can know or verify how they would perform),

and you are not especially looking for:

• products marketed as "fountain pen friendly", or simply suitable for fountain pen use, by the manufacturer;
• paper of a particular brand that give some fans a rush of blood away from the upper body at the mere mention of it, or make them hope you'll talk about (and/or show) performance on that paper when reviewing inks and pens, as if that is the only paper they can relate to and would never put deign to write with fountain pens on anything else; or
• something cheap/economical, or something high-priced/"premium", or has a price-per-page within a certain range
• something specifically coated or uncoated, hot-pressed or cold-pressed, virgin or recycled, etc.

then I think this Japanese-made Daiso 'semi B5' notebook (product code 4984343949324) does very well, especially considering its retail unit price.

[DrDebG]

OK, I just want a notebook which has no ghosting.

 

 

Tomoe River paper will have "ghosting" issues no matter what thickness you purchase. The ink will not bleed (except under rare occasions), but you will almost always have ghosting with any saturated ink.

 

I might suggest then that you try Midori MD notebooks. The paper color is what I would call a light ivory color - definitely not white, but certainly not full ivory either. The paper is a bit thicker and is not as smooth as TR paper is, but the ghosting is much less. And it can handle most wet nibs fairly well. I use mostly stub and wide nibs that are fairly wet, and I only had a few times where the ink bled through.

 

Personally, I prefer Tomoe River paper and have gotten accustomed to the ghosting. But, my back up is Midori MD notebooks. Of course, for my work, I use a much less expensive and fairly good notebook made by Letterbox in Canada. The paper does not ghost and rarely has bleed through. The notebook is larger than A5 though.

 

I recently reviewed several notebooks here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/346167-review-of-6-different-a5-notebooks/

 

Hope that helps.

[mke]

Yes, Daiso is a good option for cheap and!! good notebooks. @A Smug Dill Thanks for the hint. I had bought already some of their notebooks but had not yet tested them, they are B5 and I was looking for A5.

So, now I tested them. Results: excellent, good and bad.

If I am correct than the linked notebook of A Smug Dill has the number D-98 Notebook 902 (you find this information on the backside).

Next weekend, I am going to look for that one but I think my three local Daiso shops don't have it at the moment.

 

Tomorrow, I will scan my tests, measure paper weights, thickness and update this posting.

 

Daiso Semi B5

ref) D-98 902: 4984343949324; 6.5 mm ruled; 60 sheets (A Smug Dill)

1) D-98 903: 4984343949331; 8.0 mm ruled; 60 sheets

2) D-98 13: 4549131547863; 5 mm squared; 30 sheets (red cover, paper ivory)

3) D-98 14: 4549131547870; plain; 30 sheets (ivory cover, paper ivory)

4) D-98 905: 4984343949355; 7.0 mm ruled; 50 sheets (Kraft paper colored cover, white paper)

 

I guess, the paper from ref and 1) are identical; unfortunately I see much more ghosting with my test pen/inks.

2) ghosting, acceptable level

3) ghosting

4) strong ghosting; not acceptable even with EF nib and a dry ink

 

2) The ghosting is the same level than DrPenfection's recommended Midori products.

 

For normal writing, I think 1) is acceptable. I can write on the second page without being overly distracted by the backside writing.

It is the same level than the much more expensive Kokuyo Cyo-Bo paper notebooks ノ-GC3B. The normal Kokuyo Campus notebooks show signs of bleeding through, otherwise similar level of ghosting.

 

All notebooks, except 4), are suitable for EF nibs.

[A Smug Dill]

I had bought already some of their notebooks but had not yet tested them, they are B5 and I was looking for A5.

There are relatively few made-in-Japan notebooks in the Daiso stores here, compared to made-in-Indonesia and made-in-China notebooks on their shelves, and most of them are in B5 (or 'semi B5') or something small like A6 and A7. This line of notebook/notepad products come in many different sizes, and from what I've seen is very "fountain pen friendly" and resistant to show-through, but alas the paper is cream-coloured and not white.

 

If I am correct than the linked notebook of A Smug Dill has the number D-98 Notebook 902

You are indeed correct.

 

I guess, the paper from ref and 1) are identical; unfortunately I see much more ghosting with my test pen/inks.

OK, so which pen and inks are you using to test?

[mke]

> which pen and inks are you using to test?

 

first three combinations - see picture 2 above

 

Waldmann has a Bock nib 18K M - with Octopus Ultramarine

Pelikan M1000 18C F - with Sailor Blue

Porsche Design is 18 CT M - the Faber Castell version not the later Pelikan version - with Octopus Brilliant Red

Edited May 26, 2019 by mke

[A Smug Dill]

first three combinations - see picture 2 above

I have none of those inks, none of those pens, and the only nib that would be close to any of the three listed is the 18K gold F nib on my Pelikan M815 which I dislike using, so I'm afraid I can't and won't replicate your testing of the notebooks I have, sorry.

 

4) D-98 905: 4984343949355; 7.0 mm ruled; 50 sheets (Kraft paper colored cover, white paper)

_...snip...

4) strong ghosting; not acceptable even with EF nib and a dry ink

_...snip...

All notebooks, except 4), are suitable for EF nibs.

I just tested a made-in-Japan Daiso D-98 906 (semi B5, type 'B' 6mm-ruled white paper with kraft covers, product code 4984343949362) notebook, which I think is essentially the same as your notebook specified above except for the type 'A' 7mm ruling. There is significantly more show-through than the coated white paper in the D-98 902, although (to me, personally and subjectively) it's barely OK for use with most of my 'serious' pens inked with blacks, blues and blue-blacks. Not all colourful, saturated inks (e.g. Sailor Shikiori yodaki, delivered using a Pilot Capless Stub nib no less) showed through or bled through the paper to the other side, but quite a few (e.g. KWZ Ink Walk Over Vistula) did. There are spots of inconsistency on the page with regard to absorption of the ink, and some inks (e.g. Sailor Kujukuri Coast hamachidori) feathered terribly on this paper even though I haven't had such trouble with those inks on other papers.

 

 

 

Definitely not a notebook I'd want to use any Noodler's inks to write in, not that I trust Noodler's inks to behave on even good paper like Bloc Rhodia 80g/m² notepads.

Edited May 27, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[mke]

I said I would report paper thickness for the notebooks. I just measured some papers including brandname papers - depending on the location I get variations of up to 20% for a single paper. Paper weights also vary a lot - found up to 5% differences.

No meaning to report single values - sorry.

 

What a mess.

Edited May 27, 2019 by mke

[A Smug Dill]

2) D-98 13: 4549131547863; 5 mm squared; 30 sheets (red cover, paper ivory)

3) D-98 14: 4549131547870; plain; 30 sheets (ivory cover, paper ivory)

_...‹snip›...

2) ghosting, acceptable level

3) ghosting

Hang on. I guess you're talking about the larger siblings of this:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/346033-daiso-d-98-series-b7-7mm-ruled-memo-pad/

given they share the same first ten digits in the product (bar)code? I see essentially no show-through with that paper. Now I'm wondering if you're more sensitive (without negative connotation) to show-through or 'ghosting' than I am.

[mke]

It is called the JAN (Japanese Article Numbering) barcode.

 

It just bothers me that it is so difficult to find a paper without ghosting and bleeding through - as if fountain pens are a new development.

[A Smug Dill]

It just bothers me that it is so difficult to find a paper without ghosting and bleeding through - as if fountain pens are a new development.

I don't know that perfectly resistant against show-through and bleed-through of (fountain pen) inks from writing on the other side of the page was ever a critical requirement of consumer-grade paper, since the invention of fountain pens. Furthermore, the formulation of some modern inks is indeed a new development that was never seen in the market a hundred, or fifty, or even just twenty years ago. Expecting a paper that is resistant to show-through and bleed-though of any and every ink in the market — and in the past, present, or future — is, I suspect, and impossible ask, whereas finding a paper that doesn't allow (only) Parker Quink and Waterman inks to show-through at all would be a different story.

[Algester]

I do use Kokuyo's soft ring A5 notebooks should be fairly common in Japan it doesnt compete with Daiso's pricing but for me it has been fairly good

 

the paper is somewhere around 60-70 gsm

Edited May 28, 2019 by Algester

[A Smug Dill]

I also tested Apica Premium C.D. notebooks. Not usable with wet ink/nib combinations - heavy bleed-through.

I just tested an Apica 3A70 (which I suppose is not "Premium") A5 notebook today, with just about every Stub nib I have (presently inked), as well as ink-pen combinations that some other paper(s) had problems with show-through and bleed-through in my recent testing.

 

 

 

 

That is the best performance in notebook paper I have tested and seen in that regard.

[mke]

> Apica 3A70 (which I suppose is not "Premium") A5

Forget their Premium notebooks, they show heavily bleed-through, I have tested the blue CDS90Y one.

 

I ordered one. Let's see tomorrow.

Edited May 28, 2019 by mke

[mke]

@A Smug Dill

 

> Apica 3A70 A5 notebook

That was a good recommendation! That is probably the best notebook I have.

 

I didn't find many places in Japan where it is sold - Yodobashi has it fortunately.

Rakuten Global too: https://global.rakuten.com/en/store/bunkidou-shop/item/3a70/