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Fine Bird Needs A New Beak

grind pelikan fine nib

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#1 peroride

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:25

My better half said: "I see that line and I don't want it"

 

Funny English that way but the M605 fine nib wrote out of the box smooth yet more like a fat medium whose line does not pair with its refined looks.

 

Also occasional hard starts, my guess: new pen baby bottoms

 

So I've been thinking about a totally new grind for the Pelikan beak by one of the pros.

 

Any new beaks that you are proud of that you had done on your Pelikans?

 

Italic, stubby? Hornbill?

 

Thank you in advance

 

fpn_1555051432__snowy_owl_m605.jpg



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#2 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:50

If your pen is less than 5 weeks old, you can swap out nibs for free.

 

Well if you started with Japanese pens, you will outside of Aurora never be satisfied with European width sized pens designed for flowing cursive instead of tiny Japanese printed script.

Your eyes are calibrated Mark II, my eyes were calibrated on US and Euro size so are Mark I.

 

Could have bought a Japanese EEF.

It was no secret. :angry:

All those who started out in skinny nibbed Japanese pens, say Pelikan writes fat.

All of us who started out with vintage or semi-vintage Pelikans, say.....modern Pelikans write fat.

Lamy is well known for being 'fat' to Japanese pen owners.

My MB is known to be fat....sigh cubed the B =BB. And that was coming from vintage/semi-vintage Euro nibs. :unsure: Very pretty nib. With permission of Pentime.

Sigh, everyone said MB writes wide, so I tested the M nib in the B&M and it wrote to my B. At home on better paper it wrote only to a M. :wacko:

So I made a major mistake when I swapped that nib in not specifying the middle of tolerance and got the fat end of tolerance. A skinny M can = exactly a fat F. or in your case your fat F is well into what you see as a M.

 

If your pen is less than 5 weeks old, you can swap out nibs for free.

 

My eye only, bling. :P 

3zrdy3P.jpg

 

 

One could save lots of money by learning to write larger. :eureka: Lots of fun to be had in wide nibs.

 

Then you have to ask your self, what do I want the ink to do...........two toned shade works best in western M & F....not narrow Japanese. Sheen works better in middle width nibs...............A real thin nib needs a very wet ink, or a very supersaturated one to lay a line that can be seen.

What do you want your ink to do, has to do with width and if you were to go vintage semi-flex...how wet a nib can be. Semi-flex requires a very good ink to paper match to get both line variation and shading.

 

But if you want a stub ..... get a semi-flex.................and don't waste your money on a modern whisper of oblique when one can get the real thing in semi-flex.

I do suggest buying a few semi-flex nibs. I have a 605 that is stubbed from BB semi-nail to 1.0....but to tell the truth, the vintage '50's B nib. :notworthy1: :thumbup: :puddle: is better. That would be a fat M in vintage and semi-vintage is 1/2 a width narrower than modern. 

 

Yes, modern 400/600/800/1000 are @ 1/2 wider and have the new fat and blobby double kugel/ double ball tipping so you don't have to learn how to hold the fountain pen like a fountain pen but can continue holding it like a ball point.

It is a semi-nail nib....so it's not turned into a pretzel easily.

 

Don't forget you can get a gold plated  springy regular flex 200's nib to fit your 600...or even a non-gold plated nib for @ E27...that is half a width narrower than modern and lays a cleaner line.  A nice comfortable ride.

I do rave about the springy regular flex 200 nib. Regular flex is I believe what the Japanese makers call 'soft'. Called regular flex in once back in B&W TV days it was regular issue by many US pen companies.

 

Stiffer nib Stub IMO is a bit ordinary.

One can get  a nicer stub by buying a '50-65 semi-flex nib which is stubbed, and you get the ease of tine spread....for flair. :notworthy1: :thumbup: :puddle: ...Not for Fancy thick Lettering!!!!! SEMI-flex not semi-FLEX.

 

CI and a 'smooth CI' (offered by nibgrinder) ...don't know the difference.

PB did my 18K OB Lamy Persona nail (no line variation at all in nail OB)....made it into a wide M CI. You do lose a slight tad of nib width.

Do suggest sending a picture of what angle you hold your pen, so the nib grinder can get the exact angle you hold your pen at.

PB is Pendelton Brown. His handwriting, not mine. :rolleyes:

EIj4i9e.jpg

 

FWL4Clr.jpg

Look up Nibgrinder, he lists a few style I don't know like Hybred. And another well known Binder trained Lady nibmeister (I think) has developed a new and interesting grind....but like a fool, didn't bookmark that....being light on nails/semi-nails and money. But it looked like a nifty idea.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 25 April 2019 - 10:05.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#3 SenZen

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:26

You may also want to try other inks before having the nib changed, my Pelikans behave very differently according to the ink, e.g. 18c m600 with Asa Gao: fat line, very dark with lots of shading and not particularly smooth; Hisoku: fat line, super dry, you could feel the metal on paper; Kon Peki: finally just right, it seemed to remember it's an F nib, the right shade I wanted and a lot smoother, the feeling of a micro pillow of ink between nib and paper.


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#4 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:11

4001 ink is sry so will be narrower, slick paper will give a narrower line.

 

And every pen company that makes an ink, tunes it's pens for that ink.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#5 Calabria

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 23:25

My better half said: "I see that line and I don't want it"
 
Funny English that way but the M605 fine nib wrote out of the box smooth yet more like a fat medium whose line does not pair with its refined looks.
 
Also occasional hard starts, my guess: new pen baby bottoms
 
So I've been thinking about a totally new grind for the Pelikan beak by one of the pros.
 
Any new beaks that you are proud of that you had done on your Pelikans?
 
Italic, stubby? Hornbill?
 
Thank you in advance
 
fpn_1555051432__snowy_owl_m605.jpg

Nice picture! Could be my desk.

I've been pretty unlucky with M605 nibs in
F and EF, and would agree that the lines they put down are not likeable - blobby, noodly, blunt. I find M8xx nibs are somewhat better.

I had Mike Masuyama make a Japanese F out of one of my nibs; I will say he did a good job but the line is VERY fine now and not particularly expressive. I was lucky and found a two-chick vintage OM for my white transparent, and while that is a beautiful line, I still don't think it's ideal for me (it changes my handwriting).

I'll probably try to get an architect's grind from somebody like Dan Smith, but the waiting time has made me put it off (thus increasing my waiting time.) Good luck!
"If you can spend a perfectly useless afternoon in a perfectly useless manner, you have learned how to live."
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#6 peroride

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 04:23

Thank you for all the wonderful input everyone

 

@Bo Bo Olson -  your encouraging pen wisdom is always invaluable. You are right on the nib, I'm coming from Japanese lineage so the Pelikan is really where it should be! I'm learning gratitude and acceptance now and I think that is how I should approach this snowy owl. I'm in the window for an exchange but seeing as my M205 steel EF doesn't have much difference than this M605 F i may consider a different grind in the future. Plus you taught me to value the fat "wide nibs" and that sounds like a fun road to try with your enthusiasm  :D 

 

 @pseudo88 - So right you are that I had forgotten the triad: pen, paper and ink. When we're new pen excited, we think the pen is all. I've been on a vintage kick lately and inking with Watery Waterman which is terrific for the wet noodles but on this beak and feed, Pelikan is crying for a different ink!  :) I'll go Bo Bo route with 4001 Pelikan for Pelikan; it will just take be time to drain the mls with all the other pens in rotation. :o

 

@Calabria Thank you for all your nibbage experiences and the caution on the too too Japanese F. I appreciate your real world review. I have many Pilot and Sailor F, EF so I will probably would try something different. I just got a Daily Italic (a first) from Mike and Linda at IndyPenDance and enjoying it so far! But there is so much to choose and enjoy from (waiting exempted ;)) Mark Bacas Blade Turk sounds enticing though the naming doesn't click with me on this peaceful Pelikan.

 

This is such a fun hobby!



#7 dinupravin

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 06:56

Sad that you have to go through this. Hope you enjoy the pen.


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#8 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 09:33

Calabria, do try a 400/400nn semi-flex nib; on your 600 which is a factory stub nib.....the obliques of that era are the only ones worth buying IMO.

(Any of the German '50-70 era nibs with any tad of flex*** is stubbed semi-flex....Pelikan, MB, Soennecken, Osmia/OFC, Kaweco and Geha among others.)

***Not the Pelikan 120 and Geha School pen, both are regular flex and not stubs, have the 'American Bump Under'.)

 

Semi-flex is a nib that adds that old fashioned fountain pen flair with out doing anything.....

......it is not for fancy writing. Is too much work.....a fancy decender at the end of a paragraph, or a bit more flair crossing a t.....is about all one should want.

It is really too stiff to draw fancy letters all day long. And some folks want a superflex nib in they only saw semi-FLEX.

Again Richard Binders advice on over stressing a nib is good to have in mind.

 

Semi-flex will be a wet nib due to ease of tine spread....until one develops a light hand....which is not much encouraged by a semi-nail 400/600 or nail 800.

Well, it will always be a wet nib, just it will be a bit fatter than need be due ease of tine spread and   one being a bit heavy handed .....but will have a clean line. Which is not the case in the blobby post '97 Pelikan nibs. (outside the springy regular flex 200/100) (A 200 or semi-vintage '82-97 400's nib works fine in a 600 also...........a nice half a width narrower and writes with a nice clean line.  The 200's nib was @ E27 so is affordable to check out. )

 

Coming from nail/semi-nail it took me some three months to lighten my Hand so I wasn't maxing (3X) my Pelikan 140 OB nib.  After a month I wasn't maxing all the time, but it did take three months to have a lighter Hand.

Do read Richard Binder's article on metal fatigue. 

 

It was pointed out by a good poster:

Stub or CI is 100% line variation. Semi-flex is line variation, On Demand................or so it becomes after one has lightened one's Hand.  One has to have a lighter hand to Demand a bit more line.

 

I had a '50-54 semi-flex B on my 605 instead of the BB that came with it. :notworthy1: :puddle:

A bit better still than the 1.0 stub that BB nib ended up becoming. The flair is different.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 28 April 2019 - 09:41.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#9 Spelikan

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 15:58

My better half said: "I see that line and I don't want it"

 

Funny English that way but the M605 fine nib wrote out of the box smooth yet more like a fat medium whose line does not pair with its refined looks.

 

Also occasional hard starts, my guess: new pen baby bottoms

 

So I've been thinking about a totally new grind for the Pelikan beak by one of the pros.

 

Any new beaks that you are proud of that you had done on your Pelikans?

 

Italic, stubby? Hornbill?

 

Thank you in advance

 

fpn_1555051432__snowy_owl_m605.jpg

 

Congratulations on the pen! You're most of the way there.  :)  The white M605 is my favorite of the 'special editions'.... (I do not have my own yet, but it's on my "Just One More" list.  ;) )

 

Everyone's tastes are different, of course, but since you asked: your nib is a prime candidate for one of my favorite grinds: the cursive italic. I have cursive italic grinds from Richard Binder, Linda Kennedy, Mark Bacas, and Dan Smith, from 1.0mm down to the exquisite, narrow-lines job Linda did on a Jowo #6 Fine, grinding it to cursive italic, ever-so-slightly smoothing its shoulders (not nearly into Stub Range, but just enough to ease things a little), and adjusting its ink flow so it wouldn't be too dry. Oooh, la. I am fascinated by the 'same-but-different' results from each nibmeister, and am grateful for the variety. 
 

-- When choosing a 'next' grind, I aim for something I can't buy off-the-shelf (the ubiquitous 1-1.1mm stubs in most other brands, for example), and also consider what I already own and whether to supplement in comparison or in contrast.

Beyond that, the biggest challenge is actually having the nib ground. In all honesty, I hate this part-- the wait and/or uncertainty and/or time sink, especially if navigating a pen show. I've had great experiences, but it's stressful, and can be frustrating--  being 'on call' before and/or after other customers with work of uncertain duration... 

 

[I finally got my most recent pens dialed in while in Baltimore (Binder, Kennedy), only to fall into a Red Tortoise M101N soon after-- with  a Medium nib that doth blob and betray and beg for a grind. It's not just that I would prefer something more interesting-- and I do!-- but that the line itself is unsatisfying as-is.... Here we go, again.]

Dan Smith takes pre-show signups for his work, so I'm hoping he'll be at DC again this year. In August. That's all I gots.

All of which to say: good luck, have fun, and let us know what you choose and how it turns out (and: when!).  B)

 

~ S.





 



#10 LuckyKate

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 16:41

I had a Pelikan 600 M nib that was so fat and blobby it was unusable. At a pen show I asked Dan Smith (The Nibsmith) if he could make the nib act like a Sailor fine medium. He examined the Sailor under a magnifying glass and turned the Pelikan medium nib into an exquisite Japanese fine medium that is always in use.

 

I also have the white transparent m605 with a Cursive Italic (.6) from nibs.com that I like very much for journaling.


Edited by LuckyKate, 29 April 2019 - 16:46.


#11 sargetalon

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:35

If you are looking for a custom grind in the future, I'd suggest looking at an architect grind.  Neat looking nib and a bit different.


PELIKAN - Too many birds in the flock to count.  My pen chest has proven to be a most fertile breeding ground.

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#12 peroride

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 00:18

Thank you all again for the advice and recommendations. 
 
> Hope you enjoy the pen.
Thank you @dinupravin Indeed I do and as I learn more! :) One can be grateful for what is, but there too is enjoyment for what can be. Fun hobby!
 
>your nib is a prime candidate for one of my favorite grinds: the cursive italic
 
Thank you @Spelikan for all the grind recommendations and procuring tips! 
I just got my first grind: 0.5 mm Daily Italic from Mike and Linda at Indy-Pen-Dance and so far enjoying the subtle line variation. 
Maybe I'll be bolder and try your CI recommendation.
 
> Semi-flex is a nib that adds that old fashioned fountain pen flair with out doing anything.....
 
Thank you @Bo Bo Olsen that is the sweet spot I'm looking for, LazyFlexTM  :P
Another idea I had was scouring around for a vintage M140 and doing a nib swap into the M600. So many choices! :unsure:
I'm going to drag my better half to our first pen faire so maybe there will be pretty old birds abound! We will hope.
 
>turned the Pelikan medium nib into an exquisite Japanese fine medium that is always in use.
 
Thank you @LuckyKate for sharing your clever transformation! I didn't know customization could extend to such a unique request and execution. My thinking was only in the usual range of cuts: stub, italic, CI, oblique, etc. I recently became enamored with Sailor M, having missed with a Sailor Zoom and somewhat Sailor EF. Now I understand true Sailor love and I'm all in for the LuckyKate Special! :D
The idea that Dan Smith (The Nibsmith) can transform the Pelikan into Sailor feeling makes me rethink the power of nibmeisters to take us beyond the marketing as was so recently also pointed out to me by Bruno Taut: https://estilofilos....iv-writing.html
 
>architect grind.  Neat looking nib and a bit different.
 
Thank you @sargetalon for the recommendation. It does look intriguing as the flipside to CI. :P   I too was thinking about architect but wonder if the Fine point had enough tipping material. I might go that route for the Sailor Zoom that Mottishaw suggests for naginata togi like feel.
 
Status update for future Pelikan owners:
 
Ink change: I recently tried Pelikan 4001 Historic Royal Blue that I typically only use for the vintage pens and that has helped somewhat to tame the big beak and made me enjoy the pen more. Pelikan in Pelikan is my new slogan.
 
One of the reasons I've been so late to the Pelikan Party was falling into the Japanese pool of Pilot and Sailor. Of late, more research has shown the brand's virtues of workmanship, consistency and standardization with nib exchange, something missing in my Japanese pens. Plus their classic form is so iconic that I will start monitoring the skies for newer flocks. Until then I know I have one great bird full of potential for a lifetime. :)


#13 JesusNeverTappedOut

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 06:27

My better half said: "I see that line and I don't want it"

 

Funny English that way but the M605 fine nib wrote out of the box smooth yet more like a fat medium whose line does not pair with its refined looks.

 

Also occasional hard starts, my guess: new pen baby bottoms

 

So I've been thinking about a totally new grind for the Pelikan beak by one of the pros.

 

Any new beaks that you are proud of that you had done on your Pelikans?

 

Italic, stubby? Hornbill?

 

Thank you in advance

 

fpn_1555051432__snowy_owl_m605.jpg

 

 

Take it to Linda Kennedy...Indy Pen Dance...You used her before...

Regards,

David







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