A Grip (Section) Issue

[Iur]

I did not know where to voice this issue, so I hope this was the correct spot (made a quick search for 'grip' in the forum but found nothing much).

It is the first stop at least...

 

I have been writing for the longest time with this grip (let's call it 'Grip A'):

 

 

But yesterday I discovered I can also write by using a different grip ('Grip B'):

 

 

'Grip B' essentially moves my index finger from the top of the grip section to the right side, while slightly moving forward my thumb in order to compensate for any lost balance.

Since I am unused to 'Grip B', I am not able to perform optimally with it so far, but I found it could be feasible If I committed time and effort to it. However, I found out that I am - on a completely natural basis - putting much less strenght on the pen while writing with 'Grip B'. This results in a cleaner, narrower line and - for now - a more enjoyable writing experience because of that.

 

I have read that there are many kinds of ways to handle the pen while writing...

Since I am still a novice at heart when considering fountain pens, I would like to ask the following:

 

1) Is there a 'universal', standardized grip?

2) Is the Lamy Safari/Vista/Al-Star grip section supposed to be gripped in a specific manner or it is up to the writer to find out how to adapt its usual handling to it?

3) How may I try to improve my grip apart from trial and error?

 

Thank you for your attention!

RF

 

EDIT: Had issues uploading photos

Edited April 24, 2019 by Iur

[Bo Bo Olson]

Many people use the Classic Tripod ...triangle grip. The Safari and the American P-75 have grips that put one into a Tripod grip.

I don't use the tripod. It can take many months to get a light grip with one........in the meanwhile one fights Death Grip......and Kung Fu thumb pinch....pain, hand fatigue.

 

I use the 'forefinger up' method to grasp a fountain pen, takes three minutest to learn an automatic light grip. One of the writers over in the penman sections came over and showed us how to do the 'forefinger up' just short of a decade ago. I switched back and forth for most of a week before I completely swapped grips....except for my Safari and P-75.

 

The pain of abused nerves in the dent from ball points and fountain pens ar the nail junction of my middle finger stopped when I moved the pen down finger 1/3 of an inch.

Do that even if you remain with the Tripod.

A light grip allows you to write much longer with out fatigue. If you can spend many months, it is possible to develop a light Hand with the Tripod...................a lot of work.

I'm not the only one to use the forefinger up, there are some 3-4 posters I respect that do also. Look in some of the old Tripod/Death Grip posts.

 

The forefinger up.

 

Help! How Do You Hold Your Fountain Pen?

[MuddyWaters]

Your grip A is exactly how I grip my al-star and it has reduced the pain in my third finger

 

I love that you just realized what the triangular shape of the section is for Here in school they teach the tripod grip for pencils and pens, but it led to pain when holding to fountain pens, so I converted to fore-finger up method (your grip A)

 

It's also ironic that the most comfortable way to hold the al-star/safari is to bypass its section triangularity

[Iur]

Many people use the Classic Tripod ...triangle grip. The Safari and the American P-75 have grips that put one into a Tripod grip.

I don't use the tripod. It can take many months to get a light grip with one........in the meanwhile one fights Death Grip......and Kung Fu thumb pinch....pain, hand fatigue.

 

I use the 'forefinger up' method to grasp a fountain pen, takes three minutest to learn an automatic light grip. One of the writers over in the penman sections came over and showed us how to do the 'forefinger up' just short of a decade ago. I switched back and forth for most of a week before I completely swapped grips....except for my Safari and P-75.

 

The pain of abused nerves in the dent from ball points and fountain pens ar the nail junction of my middle finger stopped when I moved the pen down finger 1/3 of an inch.

Do that even if you remain with the Tripod.

A light grip allows you to write much longer with out fatigue. If you can spend many months, it is possible to develop a light Hand with the Tripod...................a lot of work.

I'm not the only one to use the forefinger up, there are some 3-4 posters I respect that do also. Look in some of the old Tripod/Death Grip posts.

 

The forefinger up.

 

Help! How Do You Hold Your Fountain Pen?

 

Thank you very much for your insight! I shall explore the threads you mentioned.

 

 

Your grip A is exactly how I grip my al-star and it has reduced the pain in my third finger

 

I love that you just realized what the triangular shape of the section is for Here in school they teach the tripod grip for pencils and pens, but it led to pain when holding to fountain pens, so I converted to fore-finger up method (your grip A)

 

It's also ironic that the most comfortable way to hold the al-star/safari is to bypass its section triangularity

 

This is unexplored territory for me. I have also been quite comfortable writing with the fore-finger up all these months, I am just finding hard to write in a light manner. However, I have tried posting the cap on my Al-Star and it instantly improved that problem, although it did not eliminate it.

I need to practice more

EDIT: Tried Bo Bo Olson's method, it is not super comfortable for now but I am sure with a bit adaptation and practice I can start using it regularly. The lettering of the writing changed instantly to a vertical stance, which I found quite amusing.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Iur

[MuddyWaters]

You don't have to hold the pen tightly with grip a if your pen is weighed properly and the nib is not overly polished. The ideal is to move the pen at your shoulder and arm, this allows the pen to write without too much finger or hand pressure.

[Bo Bo Olson]

For forefinger up....the 'new' picture shows much too much an elbow flying in the sky....and of course you press like the dickens with such a grip, you can't help it. Too much up being pressed down.

 

I find the long (nearly unbent) forefinger just lies there on top of the section, not pressing at all....and the thumb 'has' to be at 08:30 (to 09:00) so there is no downward pressure (that downward pressure is a fault of the 10-2-6 Tripod grip.

...................you are by the Safari grip forced into a tripod, but both your tripod grips are too extreme with the flying elbow....and you do have the deadly Kung Fu Thumb Pinch....grip.

Try to flatten that. The more the ball of the thumb is on the pen the better.

[sirgilbert357]

I'll just disagree with BoBo here. He repeats this ad nauseam, but it doesn't make it true.

 

You can make any grip lighter by holding the pen lighter. This "forefinger up" doesn't automatically mean less pressure. Use whatever you like best, and it's OK to be well versed in two different grips if you so desire. It take a little practice (again, the "three minutes to learn it" thing spouted here is nonsense and can't possibly be applied as a blanket statement to such an individual experience involving adjusting one's grip on a pen), and YMMV, but stick with it and you'll get there. Just try holding your pen in your normal grip with far less pressure than usual. Try writing with a kids paintbrush using just the tip of the brush. There are head games you can play to make yourself realize how hard you pressing as you write that will put you in check and help you be more aware of it.

 

Muscle memory takes time to develop, some more than others...your handwriting will likely see a bit of an evolution as you adjust, LOL.

 

ETA: also, if you want less fatigue when writing for long periods of time, try arm writing. Pressure on the pen is one thing, but finger writing will always tire you out before arm writing, regardless of pressure used to hold the pen.

Edited April 25, 2019 by sirgilbert357

[Iur]

Thank you for your input!

 

I will see what is the most useful handling method for me.

 

That "kid's paintbrush" is a very nice image!

[BaronWulfraed]

 

You can make any grip lighter by holding the pen lighter. This "forefinger up" doesn't automatically mean less pressure. Use whatever you like best, and it's OK to be well versed in two different grips if you so desire. It take a little practice

 

While I've not had problems with pens (using fountain pens since circa 1969), a simile might be my experience with holding a pick for mandolin... When I started I spent a fortune on picks with rubberized sides, finger grooves or hollows -- because I was varying from getting a cramp squeezing on common flat picks, and having the pick fall out of my hand. After a few weeks I managed to get the muscle memory to have a "light" grip on a flat pick (though the Golden Gate pick I favor /is/ a bit thicker than most common picks).

[ehemem]

I'll just disagree with BoBo here. He repeats this ad nauseam, but it doesn't make it true.

 

You can make any grip lighter by holding the pen lighter. This "forefinger up" doesn't automatically mean less pressure. Use whatever you like best, and it's OK to be well versed in two different grips if you so desire. It take a little practice (again, the "three minutes to learn it" thing spouted here is nonsense and can't possibly be applied as a blanket statement to such an individual experience involving adjusting one's grip on a pen), and YMMV, but stick with it and you'll get there. Just try holding your pen in your normal grip with far less pressure than usual. Try writing with a kids paintbrush using just the tip of the brush. There are head games you can play to make yourself realize how hard you pressing as you write that will put you in check and help you be more aware of it.

 

Muscle memory takes time to develop, some more than others...your handwriting will likely see a bit of an evolution as you adjust, LOL.

 

ETA: also, if you want less fatigue when writing for long periods of time, try arm writing. Pressure on the pen is one thing, but finger writing will always tire you out before arm writing, regardless of pressure used to hold the pen.

 

 

BoBo is just wrong. What he describes as the "forefinger up" grip is just the standard tripod grip with the forearm rotated medially. It is the grip best suited for writing all the flex alphabets, not for the chisle-edge alphabets.

 

And, yes, the section of the Safari is shaped that way so it encourages you to use the tripod grip...

[MuddyWaters]

 

 

BoBo is just wrong. What he describes as the "forefinger up" grip is just the standard tripod grip with the forearm rotated medially. It is the grip best suited for writing all the flex alphabets, not for the chisle-edge alphabets.

 

And, yes, the section of the Safari is shaped that way so it encourages you to use the tripod grip...

No in fact I do think there is substance to the forefinger up method. It allows the pen to be held at a shallower angle from the page which puts it more in line with the forearm. As such, when using shoulder writing, the pen is held more securely even of the grip of the fingers is looser. On the other hand, the tripod grip usually leads to more wrist writing because of more perpendicular angle to the page. That's my hypothesis...

[sirgilbert357]

No in fact I do think there is substance to the forefinger up method. It allows the pen to be held at a shallower angle from the page which puts it more in line with the forearm. As such, when using shoulder writing, the pen is held more securely even of the grip of the fingers is looser. On the other hand, the tripod grip usually leads to more wrist writing because of more perpendicular angle to the page. That's my hypothesis...

Everyone holds their pen so differently, even if using the same grip style. Size of pen, size of hand, preferred angle of pen to the paper, angle of paper orientation, etc all vary. I know a lefty that writes beautiful cursive with the paper rotated 90 degrees to the left. That's right, she literally writes straight up, from bottom to top, starting close to her and moving her hand away from her as she writes. But when she's done, turn the paper back to the right orientation to read it and you'd never know she used that method. You gonna tell her she should be using forefinger up?? How could you possibly know that would be better for her?

 

Ten people could use this fabled "forefinger up" method and have 10 different writing angles with ten different reports on how it "feels" to them. It's all nonsense to apply blanket statements as if they are objective fact.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I do disagree with you Sirgilbert. The fore finger up, is an automatic light grip.

 

#1. the thumb is flat; a dam and the pen body rests against it, at @ 08:30 so there is no downward pressure like in Tripod 10:00.

The long hardly bent forefinger rests on the top of the section between 12-12:30-13:00. A bent forefinger like in tripod = pressure. The 02:00 -10:00 is a pinch..

...........Laying the long shallow forefinger on the section, resting it on the section, means there is no pressure needed to hold the fountain pen.

 

You may well have a light grip in Tripod...................many don't. And many can't get rid of the tripod Death Grip. There was a while back very many threads on The Death Grip and how to cure it.

I use to have the Death Grip & Kung Fu Thumb. I had read much about how many months it takes folks to get a light grip in Tripod. And three to six months of working at it, was suggested as normal, . By well respected posters.

 

I had a life time of Death Grip.....dent at the nail junction of the middle finger with 'nerve' damage....it hurt to write....hell it hurt to print.

I went from Death Grip to a light grip in three minutes.

Did take me much of a week to get use to the new grip, the forefinger up.

Wow....no hand fatigue from the Death Grip.....how 'strange', not having to stop and shake my hand every 5-7 minutes..................to write 20 or even 30 minutes with out needing to stop and rest. Gee.

 

Yes I can remember the day in 7th/8th grade where the teacher told me to hold the pen lightly so she could pull it easily from my hand...doing so. It didn't work....She didn't stand over my shoulder pulling the pen from my hand the rest of the year.

.............50 some odd years later, I ran into the forefinger up & 3 minutes later I had a light grip.

 

Will admit...46-7 of those years I was a ball point barbarian....but tripod is tripod. And one needed force to make a pre gel-hybrid ball point plow the south forty with out the mule. So of course I kept the Death Grip......one needed it to make a hard to push ball point work.

[Arkanabar]

What relaxed my grip more than anything else was to reverse my tendency to choke up on the point. I used to hold my Hero 616 near the point. Now I hold it at the clutch ring. I hold most of my screw-cap pens right on the threads, with a very gentle and relaxed grip. This also lowers the angle of pen from paper.

 

I can't write comfortably with a Safari for more than a minute or two. I now avoid all triangular-section pens. And I've tried Bo Bo's extended-forefinger grip, and it just isn't comfortable for me.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Arkanabar

[Mangrove Jack]

When using a ballpoint pen one needs to grip the pen with a considerable amount of force (hard) with the fingers because the pen requires a certain amount of pressure, nib on paper, to initially start up and then continue to write. Also, BP's need to be held at a more steep angle than fountain pens for the nib to lay down ink on paper.

 

With a fountain pen, however, one can write without this "pen on paper pressure" and thus with a much lighter grip. With the cap posted most FP's have a good balance and with the proper grip and much less force the pen will just glide over the paper putting down a nice inky line. This enables you to use less wrist and finger movement when writing and inculcates a more arm and shoulder movement to write.