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Will It Fade Or Not?


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14 replies to this topic

#1 Charles Skinner

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:11

I have a bottle of 3 Oysters Mustard, and really, really like the color!  However, as a journal writer, I am concerned about inks fading over time.  This ink, ---- to start with,----- is rather "light." ----  Is is generally believed that inks that appear "lighter," ---- less "dark" ---- on paper will fade BEFORE other inks?  Your thoughts, please. 

 

C. S. 



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#2 Arkanabar

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:17

My limited experience is that the inks that stand up best are dark. Midway Blue and Rattler Red Eel are the brightest inks that I recall faring well in my fade tests.



#3 JakobS

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 13:45

How long do you want your journals to last?

 

How do you store them? 

 

These really are the questions to be asked. If they are properly stored in cool, non-humid conditions with low air and light pollution, on acid free paper, they should last a good while even with lighter inks, not specifically made to disappear such as washable varieties. 


Edited by JakobS, 23 April 2019 - 14:32.

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#4 amberleadavis

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 16:54

Take a small writing sample, - cut it in half - put one in a window for two weeks, the other in a dark drawer.  After two weeks, compare them - if you see a lot of fading, then don't use the ink in journals.  The process of exposing the writing to light, speeds up the decay process.

 

BTW, Jakob, while I would agree with you, my experience and tests have shown differently. I put ink bottles directly in to a window that receives Las Vegas sun and heat and the ink did not break down.

 

 

 

Here are some threads which may help.

 

Inky T O D - Have You Ever Had An Ink Fade?
http://www.fountainp...ad-an-ink-fade/
Inky T O D - Have You Ever Had An Ink Change Color After It's On The Paper?


http://www.fountainp...s-on-the-paper/

 

Light Fastness Tests - Thanks Arkanbar. (His are the ones marked "mine.")

 
Here's a list of fade test threads I keep handy.
 
A list of all the ink fade comparisons/tests I've been able to find on FPN.

http://www.fountainp...-mark-overview/

http://www.fountainp...onth-fade-test/

http://www.fountainp...nten-and-other/

http://www.fountainp...e-2#entry637859

http://www.fountainp...tfastness-test/

http://www.fountainp...-faded-flowers/

http://www.fountainp...k-fade-testing/

http://www.fountainp...fastness-scans/

http://www.fountainp...mini-fade-test/

http://www.fountainp...term-fade-test/

http://imgur.com/gallery/0MzOR (mine)

http://www.fountainp...lass-fade-test/

http://www.fountainp...rn-usa-uv-test/

http://www.fountainp...tfastness-test/ (scroll)

http://www.fountainp...e-2#entry637859

http://www.fountainp...nten-and-other/

http://www.fountainp...ting/?p=3854815

We have some more:
 
Fading Test For 4 Black Inks
http://www.fountainp...k-inks/?hl=fade
 
 
 
2017 Fade Boards
http://www.fountainp...are-up/?hl=fade
 
 
Not the same as a fade test but sort of:
Ink Comparison From 15+ Years Ago
http://www.fountainp...de#entry3767327
 
 
Quick Fade Test
http://www.fountainp...e-test/?hl=fade
 
 
The ever important:  
Results - Does Ink Fade In The Bottle?
http://www.fountainp...bottle/?hl=fade



Endurance Test http://www.fountainp.../page-1?hl=fade
 
122 Inks - For The 2015 Fade Olympics - More Will Arrive Soon
http://www.fountainp...e-soon/?hl=fade
 
March 2013 Maryland Uv Fade Test
http://www.fountainp...e-test/?hl=fade
 
Ink Sample Fading Test
http://www.fountainp...g-test/?hl=fade
 
June 2013 Maryland Uv Fade Test
http://www.fountainp...e-test/?hl=fade
 
September 2012 Uv Test
http://www.fountainp...de#entry2700986
 
Fade Test A Few Purples
http://www.fountainp...urples/?hl=fade
 
December 2012 Maryland Fade Test
http://www.fountainp...e-test/?hl=fade
 
More Maryland Fade Tests
http://www.fountainp...de#entry2589494

 

Inky T O D - Have You Ever Had An Ink Fade?
http://www.fountainp...ad-an-ink-fade/

Inky T O D - Have You Ever Had An Ink Change Color After It's On The Paper?
http://www.fountainp...s-on-the-paper/

Here was the 2012 - I'm having to reupload images:
 
How Much Sun Can My Ink Take
http://www.fountainp...=1#entry2263109
 
And the 2013 scans
Fade Olympics 2013 Sponsored By T L V P P
http://www.fountainp...sored-by-tlvpp/
 
Sunny Experiments - # 4 - Need Help[/size]
http://www.fountainp...eed-help/page-1
 
Sun Test On Ink, Toner And Solid Ink Printer
http://www.fountainp...r/#entry2321170


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#5 lectraplayer

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 17:28

I agree with the paper in the window test, though I don't think the ink will break down in quite the same way, or at least as quickly to have the sun shining on the bottle, as the same light would be absorbed by more of it.


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#6 Freddy

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 17:38

C.S. .. Depends on your age.....Will not make any difference....in the next fifty years.....

By the way...found some work I did in 1960 using Parker blue ink...Papers stored in 

file folders that were in boxes shielded from light and variations in temperature.

Papers are in outstanding condition..without any fading.....

        Fred..



#7 JakobS

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 18:45

Take a small writing sample, - cut it in half - put one in a window for two weeks, the other in a dark drawer.  After two weeks, compare them - if you see a lot of fading, then don't use the ink in journals.  The process of exposing the writing to light, speeds up the decay process.

 

BTW, Jakob, while I would agree with you, my experience and tests have shown differently. I put ink bottles directly in to a window that receives Las Vegas sun and heat and the ink did not break down.

 

 

 

 

Was asking how journals were stored, not ink bottles.

 

We also have to realize, though a lot of great effort has been put into these fade tests, they are done so with no control of any variables that can also cause ink to fade, and have no temporal meaning.  How many days, months, years, or decades does six months fading in a window equal to that same deterioration in a closed notebook? There simply has never been any established correlation, and cannot if these other variables such as humidity, air pollution, light (filtered, direct, reflected etc), and paper choice to name a few, are not controlled for.  Las Vegas is bright, hot, dry, and also one of the most air polluted places in the country(specifically ozone, a major cause of dye fading), the conditions present for ink in that environment will be far different than in environment that is often overcast, cool, humid, and has far less or different types of air pollution. These variables over the long term can cause different deterioration or the lack thereof than what is seen in a window fade test over a few months, it's not apples to apples. I know you are trying to copy the method that academics and industry use to assess aging of products or material, but this is done is a controlled environment where they can apply different amounts of light, temperatures, levels of humidity, and air pollution etc. so they can understand how each effects the aging process. This simply is lacking with the window fade tests that are commonly done here, they may be dramatic, but they aren't as meaningful as many want them to be.....


Edited by JakobS, 23 April 2019 - 19:36.

FP Ink Orphanage-Is an ink not working with your pens, not the color you're looking for, is never to see the light of day again?!! If this is you, and the ink is in fine condition otherwise, don't dump it down the sink, or throw it into the trash, send it to me (payment can be negotiated), and I will provide it a nice safe home with love, and a decent meal of paper! Please PM me!For Sale: TBA

#8 amberleadavis

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:31

Jakob, I (and the results) disagree with your result.  When I mentioned the bottles, I had misread your line about storage, I have stored, and still store inks in direct light.  However, I have also stored images and papers in direct light and have even posted up some of the disasters caused by super expensive signs fading in the desert sun.

 

We are not trying to determine the rate of decomposition of the ink - because your position would be correct, we do not exactly how fast these inks fade.  However, we do know how fast BSB fades (fast), and at least one of the fade tests has also used the blue wool sheets to compare the amount of light being absorbed.   BSB which fades quickly in direct light, fades in closed journals.

 

We had these reviewed by scientists and somewhere in one of those links is an explanation of the efficacy of the experiments.  Basically, the point of adding heat or light is simply to speed up the decay process.  We know from the many experiments that the ink which fades quickly in direct sun, will fade in closed notebooks. 

 

Also, check out the links with images from closed notebooks.

 

We are not trying to sell any ink as fade proof, I am trying to give Charles an easy way to ascertain if a particular ink will suit his needs.  Having reviewed thousands of inks over a 10 year period, including a lot in closed files,  I would say that this process will gives Charles meaningful information.


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#9 amberleadavis

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:38

Charles, in the thousands of inks I looked at, yellows were quicker to fade than many blacks, which is not to say that a particular black didn't fade faster than a specific yellow.


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#10 JakobS

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:45

But without controlling for it, you have no clue what effect the large amounts of ozone in Las Vegas or Maryland (Both get F's for an ozone grade by the ALA) had on the fading of those inks, and papers, or outdoor signs. Ozone and high levels of other pollutants (ie. NO2) are larger causes of inks or dyes fading in stored and most displayed material not in intense, direct sunlight. Light may of not been the most significant cause for their fading. 

 

 Light and heat, are but two variables out of more than half a dozen that lead inks to fade, it cannot be conclusively determined they alone are the cause, if none of the other variables are measured, limited, or removed from the process of decay. 

 

As is, I have never seen actual measurements of light or heat in any of the fade tests done over the years, please direct to the info if I have mis-remembered. But, this is important in understanding how much light, its intensity, and amount UV produced has upon inks and paper. If someone with Low-E windows assumes their ink writings are equally susceptible (if choosing only this variable to focus on), though the amount of direct UV rays traveling into their home is significantly less than a house with conventional windows, they worry for naught potentially...


Edited by JakobS, 24 April 2019 - 16:37.

FP Ink Orphanage-Is an ink not working with your pens, not the color you're looking for, is never to see the light of day again?!! If this is you, and the ink is in fine condition otherwise, don't dump it down the sink, or throw it into the trash, send it to me (payment can be negotiated), and I will provide it a nice safe home with love, and a decent meal of paper! Please PM me!For Sale: TBA

#11 amberleadavis

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 22:01

Jakob, we are not trying to determine what causes the fading, we know that many inks (and paints) fade.  The goal is only to see which inks will fade faster / slower.  The ozone is likely the same in the room where I store my notebook, as it is where I have my window.  We don't need - for these projects - to know what causes the degradation, only which inks will be a better choice for Charles.


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#12 A Smug Dill

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 01:46

I think I'm with Amberlea on this one. From my reading, Charles is asking for a very high-level risk appraisal for his current choice of ink, paper and operating environment for his journalling, and not some sort of risk management plan that lists the contributing factors for each identified risk and the actions to mitigate or otherwise treat it. We don't need to know most of the stuff you seem to be focussing on, because we're not looking to extrapolate any conclusions here to our own set of circumstances or our applications.


As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#13 JakobS

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 01:51

Jakob, we are not trying to determine what causes the fading, we know that many inks (and paints) fade.  The goal is only to see which inks will fade faster / slower.  The ozone is likely the same in the room where I store my notebook, as it is where I have my window.  We don't need - for these projects - to know what causes the degradation, only which inks will be a better choice for Charles.

In order to know if this 3 Oysters Mustard ink will work for Charles, you need to know the variables that may cause that ink to fade faster or slower and if they are present/absent in significant amounts in the environment he is keeping/writing his journals in.

The nature of journals is that they will likely sit closed more than opened, and UV light is not going to be a significant factor in any fading of the ink therein. The main variables that will effect the fading of ink in a closed journal will be ozone, acidity of the paper and/or ink, either initially or concentrated and created over time through interactions with other air pollutants, humidity, and temperature.

Certainly, because UV and ozone are oxidizers, an ink that fades by one process, could fade by the other, but this will be done at diffferent rates, and or not at all depending on the environment Charles lives in. In other words, if ozone and other air pollutants are not significantly present in Charles's environment, he may never see any fading of the ink in a time that is acceptable to him, or ever. Thus, though an ink may fade in a UV fade test by UV and any other unknown variable, it will not be exposed to those variables (ozone,air pollution, acidity, temp, humidity) in concentrations that can cause it to fade in a closed journal.

Charles can't make the best decision about using the ink he wants to if he doesn't know what in his environment will cause the ink to fade faster or slower in a closed journal, and UV fade tests are simply not structured to do this in a meaningful way.....

 

Charles, If you do want to go ahead and use 3Oysters Mustard for your journal writing, and want to find out what the ozone and other air pollution levels are in your neck of the woods, you can find so by going to either the ALS website, and type in your zip code in the box on the left, or the AIrNow.gov and do the same in the box in the top right. 

 

If you do find you live in an area of high ozone and other air pollution levels, there are a few things you can do to remove them from the area where you store your journals. One way, is to use a MicroChamber Book Phase Box, which is made to remove pollution and deterioration byproducts before interacting with the enclosed book/journal. This would be a great option for your journal collection no matter the type of ink used, as it will limit paper deterioration as well.  The second, is to use a activated carbon filter either through your furnace, or a dedicated activated carbon air filter. The dedicated air filter will remove ozone and other gas based air pollution quicker and more regularly, they can be reasonably affordable to pricey depending on what features they have. You can also line whatever you store your journals in with activated carbon cloth (just one place you can find it) which can absorb gas pollutants such as ozone before they interact with your writings. Both MicroChamber board, and activated carbon cloth also can be used for those of us who have large collections of vintage plastic pens that are prone to off gassing, capturing these gasses before they interact with vulnerable pens.  Even if you live in a low ozone or other air pollution level area, these options might be good just as a precaution, as other environmental events such as wildfires, or a long term increase in daily temperature may form higher levels at some point down the road.


Edited by JakobS, 25 April 2019 - 17:45.

FP Ink Orphanage-Is an ink not working with your pens, not the color you're looking for, is never to see the light of day again?!! If this is you, and the ink is in fine condition otherwise, don't dump it down the sink, or throw it into the trash, send it to me (payment can be negotiated), and I will provide it a nice safe home with love, and a decent meal of paper! Please PM me!For Sale: TBA

#14 Karmachanic

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 07:10

I'm fading! I'll be disappearing in a few years too.


"Simplicate and add Lightness."


#15 amberleadavis

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 20:06

 

If you do find you live in an area of high ozone and other air pollution levels, there are a few things you can do to remove them from the area where you store your journals. One way, is to use a MicroChamber Book Phase Box, which is made to remove pollution and deterioration byproducts before interacting with the enclosed book/journal. This would be a great option for your journal collection no matter the type of ink used, as it will limit paper deterioration as well.  The second, is to use a activated carbon filter either through your furnace, or a dedicated activated carbon air filter. The dedicated air filter will remove ozone and other gas based air pollution quicker and more regularly, they can be reasonably affordable to pricey depending on what features they have. You can also line whatever you store your journals in with activated carbon cloth (just one place you can find it) which can absorb gas pollutants such as ozone before they interact with your writings. Both MicroChamber board, and activated carbon cloth also can be used for those of us who have large collections of vintage plastic pens that are prone to off gassing, capturing these gasses before they interact with vulnerable pens.  Even if you live in a low ozone or other air pollution level area, these options might be good just as a precaution, as other environmental events such as wildfires, or a long term increase in daily temperature may form higher levels at some point down the road.

 

 

Jakob, I think we are going to disagree generally, but the advice above is very interesting and I do agree should absolutely help with the journals.  Have you personally tried the phase box for all your journals?  Though I do think these are GREAT suggestions for valuable pen collections.


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