Too Wide For Semi-Flex?

[Bo Bo Olson]

I would have put this in the Pelikan sub section, but there are many semi-flex pens, many other German brands too.

An inquisitive poster asked my opinion of a certain pen.

# 1 vintage '30-50-65-70 era nibs were half a width narrower than modern....so a B was like a fat M and is a writing nib not a signature nib.

Next a number of years ago I read Richard Binder's great article on metal fatigue. And stopped maxing my nibs all the time. My Alternate Name for that article is 'How to Spring your Nib.'

 

If a Wet Noodle goes 7 X and I do have two, I strive to stay at BB and not go out to BBB. The same with an Easy Full Flex (first stage of superflex) My post war 100n will go 5 X, but I strive to keep it at 4 X.

 

The first semi-flex I knowingly had was a Pelikan 140 OB. When I put that nib to my thumbnail to test it....I suddenly knew what all the fuss was about with out even inking it. Semi-flex is relatively a tough nib, it survived my Ham Fistedness for the three months it took to lighten my Hand.

I was not spreading the tines more than 3X and that in OB....(important for later) in the nib didn't seem to want to go wider than that. Not and be able to write....wasn't into making big fancy letters at no matter what cost.........I thought that for superflex.

 

Being 'noobie' OCD, I pressed my regular flex nibs to max...which was 3 X tine spread a light down stroke....no way to write even one word so pressed, but that had to do wtih tine spread, not tine use.

 

Pressed my semi-flex out to that width, and it reached that width easy enough that if one had Heavy Hands one wrote at 3 X often.....but not wider. The nib was telling me 3 X is enough. And I wasn't stubborn.

 

I'm very glad I got that semi-flex OB first, in the next pen I got that I thought was semi-flex wasn't. It was a Pelikan 400nn OF and in maxi....a term I'd not invented yet. But my Hand was light enough not to over stress that nib.

 

Enough of the back story.................the gentleman wanted a 'flexi' vintage Pelikan. A decade ago, 'flexi' was in use for any nib (in some cases even regular flex) from semi-flex to wet noodle....and superflex was not a general term yet.

It is my contention 'flexi' is one of the three superflex rates........but can still be missused to cover a what I see as an over stressed semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex nib.

 

I'm not sure when his Eversharp was made that gives him always that width, in the '30's Eversharp did make superflex pens. I read in the '40's semi-flex. I am ignorant of that pen. And hope he's not overstressing his nib if a semi-flex 40['s one.

 

I find this width way too wide............the nib has been over stressed out to at least 4 X, perhaps even 5 X tine spread over a light line.

And the selling scribble has no light lines....just heavy and superheavy.

 

So perhaps I'm talking apples....of a the flair of semi-flex; and others pears in a Ahab strength semi-flex that spreads it's tines wider to much wider than 3 X.....with...out....springing the nib.

 

Remember vintage OB = a modern fat M.....so I find the Pelikan 400 tortoise written part to be @ ok but not really light handed.

The first funny X's and Quick brown fox to be normal 3 X.

 

I find the second quick brown fox and funny X's to be way over stressed. Especially at how wide he's stressed the nib in the last picture.

Pictures not mine, but used here to show a 1000 words.

And I find the fancy curly Q to be more superflex.....

 

 

I find that well over 3 X tine spread, and the X's to be extreme.

The typical Ebay 'sprung nib".....if it's now sprung now....if that nib abuse continues it will be sprung. See Richard's article.

 

Could well be I'm wrong, have been often enough.....and that is what is expected out of semi-flex...is semi-FLEX, instead of my SEMI-flex.

Opinions wished.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[RudraDev]

Wow. I didn't know old Pelikans had this much flex. I'll definitely be trying one out.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The idea of the thread was the nib don't have that much flex.......it is over flexed.

Or so I think. But could be I'm wrong..........waiting for others with semi-flex pens to chime in.

 

If the nib is not sprung already, very soon it will be.

Richard Binder on his site has a very good article about metal fatigue, which I call how to spring your nib.

[sidthecat]

I covet old dip nibs because I have the opposite problem: I have such a light hand that I almost never flex a nib to its capacity, much less beyond it. I bought a Waterman with a Red nib recently: cost a packet and it’s only somewhat flexible. I’ll probably end up selling it on.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Sidthcat, You might have to go to a pen where you can mount a dip pen nib, like a Hunt 99-100-101.....they make a wet noodle look uncooked. Zebra G that is well liked is rather stiff in the dip pen world....from my reading. I don't have a Zebra G.

 

I came back to fountain pens after 40 years of ballpoint use.....so I was rather heavy handed.....but no where near as heavy handed as the person doing Olympic Splits with a semi-flex nib. I had an 140 semi-flex OB and was often writing at @ 3 X tine spread, until my Hand started getting lighter.

And IMO even if that is a maxi-semi-flex that is too much tine spread.............well, I think a maxi is limited to 3 X tine spread for safety.............after reading Richard binder's article on metal fatigue, was never tempted to see how long it would take me to spring my nib.

 

I guess my question is...............in some must have semi-flex nibs.............do they have a similar tine spread as the last part of the picture with the Max X's or not?

[OMASsimo]

I think your question can't be answered seriously because people overstressing a semi-flex nib most probably are not aware that it's only a semi-flex (or even regular flex). As I already mentioned in another post (which of course was ignored), Pelikan and most other German makers generally did not produce nibs for flex writing. Instead, their broad and oblique nibs were designed to produce the line variation, which was widely appreciated by the customers. The flex of the nib, at least in my opinion, was mostly for a more comfortable feeling while writing. The option to really flex the nib probably was a rarely used option. Even Osmia went this route. I have an Osmia 34 G with a Supra B nib, which is super soft. A broad B nib makes no sense in flex writing and certainly wasn't meant for it. But it's a fantastic nib with good flair IF you write VERY light-handed.

 

To come back to your final question, I do have dozens of pens which could be spread like the one in your last picture. But I'm not crazy enough to do it more than maybe once for testing. Some nibs from England (Mabie Todd Swan), Italy (OMAS), Germany (Osmia), and the US (Wahl-Eversharp) are OK for this but I would call them full flex (or maybe your maxi-semi-flex) and they are rare. The majority of the nibs from the same makers are certainly not meant for this and probably would suffer from that kind of treatment. Furthermore, some of my OMAS nibs from the 1940s are very flexible, yet they show little line variation. So, here it's obvious that the flexibility is only for the comfort of writing. I wonder why I can't get rid of this feeling that the flex writing thing here on FPN is a little bit of a hype - or what am I missing?

[Bo Bo Olson]

Finally a good answer, I'd been hoping for. Omassimo , I do always enjoy reading what you write.

Even the narrow nibs gave line variation. I do like the F/OF more than the EF's. I do have a maxi EF that goes out to F easy and can be pushed a bit to M on decenders or T crossing. I'm not so heavy handed as I once was. That Supra Osmia nib is what I call a maxi....Osmia is the only pen where one can be sure one has a maxi, before ordering.

 

Unfortunately, I guess I have to agree with you, that many still think a semi-flex nib is a 'flex' nib and don't come on the com to say how they sprung them.

I've always said that semi-flex is a flair pen, a tad stiff for easy fancy letters. Maxi does fancy letters easier but again.....in not a 'flex' pen, in it too has a 3 X tine spread limit before it could spring..............................the nibs seem to say Whoa....at 3 X.......it appears due to so little feed back.....................Whoa is a forgotten word when testing nibs.

 

I had expected more feed back, in there are many Pelikan, MB, Osmia and even Whal-Eversharp users with semi-flex nibs & a rare '50's Sheaffer Snorkel.

Swan made the whole gamut of nib flexes.....a decade ago I was chasing a 'flexi' Swan....didn't get one, got a Degussa marked steel nibbed no name German war pen instead..........'flexi' was so vague a decade ago. It became as I see it, the first stage of superflex.....Easy Full Flex....(perhaps maxi could well have been included, does have nice tine bend but not the tine spread of a superflex.

I did mention the article a fine poster showed us, that in the '30's Waterman was after tine bend and not tine spread. Only after 3 X tine spread!!!!! Could be we are all over stressing our superflex nibs.

 

I do have a number of superflex pens, which would spread as wide as the tine spread in the pictures. I wouldn't dream of spreading the tines of my semi&maxi's so wide.

....It seems many do more than dream, and do so as normal use...........in feed back has been limited.

 

I like regular flex it gives a nice springy line a +. It is dry enough that in F&M or B, one can use shading ink on 90g paper.

With line variation and even softer ride semi-flex is ++ and maxi is +++. Semi-flex requires a better match of ink and paper to shade in it is wetter.

:headsmack:As 'noobie' I had a maxi from the start, but being ignorant, thought it one of the wet and juicy nibs all were raving about...........the cork didn't last long, and it was my mdl 540 Osmia Supra in M.

 

Took me for ever to actually send the pens off..............I had plans to do it my self, had everything but a bottle of determination, but can't clear my desk off due to the Western Saga................laziness wins.

 

Just looking in my index card box for what ink it had, and the Osmia/Faber/Castel 540 wasn't listed (but it had had Turquoise), along with 4 other Osmia's I'd just had re-corked.

 

Sigh cubed, got too many inked right now....my normal 17....but as I run out of ink it's soft riding line variation semi&maxi Osmia time!

3X max and only when I wish to flair a fancy decender or a crossed T.......

The nib of the O-F-C 540 is 'soft' and wet to write with....smooth too because of wetness, pretty too.

 

If one gallops a horse into a raging river, it will drink. The rider too.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[lectraplayer]

Can somebody please link that metal fatigue thread? I'm finding squat and have been wondering how I can know how wide I can push a flexy nib.

[SpecTP]

Can somebody please link that metal fatigue thread? I'm finding squat and have been wondering how I can know how wide I can push a flexy nib.

 

perhaps this reference can help https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/fountain-pen-nib/nib-function-geometry-movement-forces/nib-stress-strain/

[gyasko]

I saw that for sale post where that picture was posted & thought "no way i'm buying that pen ; it's probably sprung"

[gyasko]

Can somebody please link that metal fatigue thread? I'm finding squat and have been wondering how I can know how wide I can push a flexy nib.

 

Is this what you're looking for?

 

http://richardspens.com/ref/ttp/disaster.htm

 

Can't argue with the general argument, but it's a little short on specifics. How do i know I'm in the green zone?

[WLSpec]

Beautiful pen! My only semi-flex is a small vintage Carter, and it's really a full on flex. It has been used, so it might have been overflexxed in the past, but those do tend to have more flex then you would expect. I easily get 3x width, maybe more, with that nib.

Edited April 19, 2019 by WLSpec

[lectraplayer]

 

perhaps this reference can help https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/fountain-pen-nib/nib-function-geometry-movement-forces/nib-stress-strain/

Thanks. I was thinking it was on this board.

[Pen Engineer]

Hi, thanks BoBo for this inspiration.

 

The increase of readers on the "Stresses and Strains" article brought me here. Next time, give me a hoy!

 

I read Richard's article and his diagram he shows well the behaviour of nibs.

 

I like to say: Almost anything can be designed, well-designed. It depends on the intention. What wanted the designer/ingeneer to achieve? The mechanics of springs is well understood and fatigue was already taught when I went to uni (LONG time ago).

 

If one can apply this knowledge to ordinary springs (coil, flat, spiral etc.) then, it can be applied to nibs and tines... It can, I may add as well. I have written already more about it in the chapter on flex nibs in these two articles :

 

The Technical Side More Technical enjoy!

 

I may add something about fatigue to the "Stresses and Strains" article.

 

A reader of this topic asked the question: "How do I know how far the tines can be spread?" A responsible, caring manufacturer could embos a number on the nib, 3 for 3X for example, which would take the guesswork and anxiety out of writing with a new nib.

 

It doesn't cost anything extra, there is already a letter for the width of the nib, so an F3 would be a fine nib that is designed (with some safety margin) to be spread 3X. Of course, what it still does not say is, how much force is required.

 

What about using the classification of pencil hardness? So, an F3B is the nib from before which deflects easily... an F3B6 could be an overcooked noodle and a B1H6 could be a nail.

 

Here we go! Problem solved. I wish all things in life would be this easy.

[Bo Bo Olson]

LOL cubed.

 

Outside a modified Pilot one can't get anyone to make a semi-flex nib any more............too much repair costs....and mostly for regular flex too. It is outside the Japanese 'soft' nibs rare in western nibs, just the 200/100 nibs any more.

Many a sad story where not only ball point users but nail users ruin a softer nib, because of Jack Hammer hands.

So telling someone how much tine spread one could get...would end up with someone pogo sticking the nib and then complaining the it don't spread the tines to 3 X fast enough.

 

xxxxx

 

Whal-Eversharp was superflex in the '30's, when in the '40's it went over to being semi-flex I don't know.

That Carter might well be a superflex....and not a semi-flex.

I don't know US semi-flex....do know that the Esterbrook was not well admired on the Com as semi-flex. Having laid hands on enough German pens, never chased an Estie semi-flex.

 

With German sem(maxi)i-flex I find that @ 3 X is what one can expect in tine spread. I do have a couple EF's that perhaps I could take out to 4 X, but I don't want to risk it.

There is a different in ease of tine bend and spread between Semi&maxi and superflex. I do have somewhere a superflex nib that only goes 4 X tine spread but the tine bend is much easier than semi/maxi. It is a superflex nib and even my most flexible maxi, my Rupp nib is not.

(Every time I saw a Rupp nibbed pen on German Ebay.....I finished third....so don't know if all Rupp nibs were so great.)

 

Now that I look at the extreme wide tine spread in the pitcure.....I start to understand the comments of some about having to write real slow in semi-flex....while I not getting the drift am blabbering, I have no problem writing fast in semi-flex.

I was not writing as wide as I could spread the nib either.

 

If I strove to max my many semi&maxi nibs, I wouldn't need as many.....in they would not be a nice flair nib for writing but something to draw fancy letters with.

And probably grew tired of doing so soon, in superflex does a much better job and much easier than overstressing a semi-flex.

 

An Ahab is a superflex nib that requires semi-flex pressure to make it do tricks. Semi-flex pressure is hard work when tine spreading. When the Ahab Mod...half moons ground into the nib like the Pilot mod, the Ahab becomes a first stage superflex; Easy Full Flex and lots more fun.....it is easier to work.

 

There is a huge difference between line variation and drawing huge fat letters. Those letters in that picture are so fat....one could think someone was using a fat italic nib.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[OMASsimo]

Hi, thanks BoBo for this inspiration.

 

The increase of readers on the "Stresses and Strains" article brought me here. Next time, give me a hoy!

 

I read Richard's article and his diagram he shows well the behaviour of nibs.

 

I like to say: Almost anything can be designed, well-designed. It depends on the intention. What wanted the designer/ingeneer to achieve? The mechanics of springs is well understood and fatigue was already taught when I went to uni (LONG time ago).

 

If one can apply this knowledge to ordinary springs (coil, flat, spiral etc.) then, it can be applied to nibs and tines... It can, I may add as well. I have written already more about it in the chapter on flex nibs in these two articles :

 

The Technical Side More Technical enjoy!

 

I may add something about fatigue to the "Stresses and Strains" article.

 

A reader of this topic asked the question: "How do I know how far the tines can be spread?" A responsible, caring manufacturer could embos a number on the nib, 3 for 3X for example, which would take the guesswork and anxiety out of writing with a new nib.

 

It doesn't cost anything extra, there is already a letter for the width of the nib, so an F3 would be a fine nib that is designed (with some safety margin) to be spread 3X. Of course, what it still does not say is, how much force is required.

 

What about using the classification of pencil hardness? So, an F3B is the nib from before which deflects easily... an F3B6 could be an overcooked noodle and a B1H6 could be a nail.

 

Here we go! Problem solved. I wish all things in life would be this easy.

 

Thanks for the links and your engineer insight. I couldn't agree more. Just a minor addition: My grandfather learned about stress and fatigue and the mechanics of springs. He started engineer school (today a technical university) in 1919!

 

Anyway, your suggestion is cool but would work only for new pens. I couldn't care less, but I'm really concerned about all the wonderful vintage pens getting killed by pen "enthusiasts" over stressing the nibs.

 

@Bo Bo:

Thanks for the compliments. I think it's just that we care for the same characteristics in a pen/nib and thus collect similar pens. I have a Wahl-Eversharp Doric from the 1930s with a wonderful nib but I was very disappointed with later US productions, especially the much treasured and popular Parker pens. Despite all the pretty designs and cool filling mechanisms, I stopped chasing for US pens because I'm mostly disappointed by the nibs.

 

 

 

There is a huge difference between line variation and drawing huge fat letters. Those letters in that picture are so fat....one could think someone was using a fat italic nib.

 

I totally agree. This seems like an extreme abuse of the nib. And I can't even imagine writing a couple of pages in this way with a semi-flex or even more flexible pen without breaking my wrist. I'm not a construction worker with paws as big as a toilet lid.

 

But now comes the question: How could anyone get this point over to the community here? You try very hard and do and admirable job. Yet, I have the feeling that this is largely ignored. People tend to pick from your posts what they want to hear to confirm their own opinions. They read "anything"-flex and feel not reading any farther. The brain seems to be drained in dopamines so much that the warning "don't overstress the nib" doesn't register anymore. What can be done?????

[Arkanabar]

Bo Bo is why I don't bother chase flex any more. He made me realize that I don't have the skill for flex calligraphy, nor the patience to develop it. And so I have preferred stubs for quite some time now, even though I don't really have the patience to develop skill with edged pen calligraphy, either.

[Pen Engineer]

Quoted from Omassimo, from above: Thanks for the links and your engineer insight. I couldn't agree more. Just a minor addition: My grandfather learned about stress and fatigue and the mechanics of springs. He started engineer school (today a technical university) in 1919!

 

Thanks Omassimo... wow! That's a hundred years ago! I started in 1965, also at an ingeneer school, Ingenieurschule, and now they call it a technical university. I better not start on that topic.

Beside of all that:

 

Happy Easter to all

[Bo Bo Olson]

Bo Bo is why I don't bother chase flex any more. He made me realize that I don't have the skill for flex calligraphy, nor the patience to develop it. And so I have preferred stubs for quite some time now, even though I don't really have the patience to develop skill with edged pen calligraphy, either.

I defiantly don't have any skills nor patience to practice, but with semi-flex and or maxi, I get that old fashioned fountain pen flair with out having to do anything.

(With regular flex, shading is easier to get.) Semi-flex requires a better ink and paper match to get both line variation and shading.

German semi-flex is stub.......(I do have a few German/Austrian pens from the '60's that are not stubs but have the 'American Bump Under' but on the whole the vintage pens of that era and area are stubs.

 

I do have have a very nice italic calligraphy book, that I take my hammer and chisel to occasionally, to break open it open from being dust rust shut. I lack a bottle of persistence or was that determination.

Being lazy don't get one far.

 

But by not asking the world more than what semi-flex can deliver, I do have fun with them....29 semi's and 16 maxi's.

 

I don't ask much from my superflex nibs either.....

 

Do not ask what your nib can do for you, ask what you can do for your nib...by not overstressing it.

xxxxxxxxx

 

Omassimo ...we got to come up with a new name for semi-flex.......in as we have said before, all is seen is xxx-FLEX.

In regular flex is no longer used, and only Japanese soft is......

Double soft........Soft squared, and maxi would be soft cubed.

 

...really, really got to push the modern modified nib and put down the unmodified non-butter smooth vintage nibs.

Tell the the noobie, don't waste money on an old worn out vintage pen, when a modern factory modified Pilot nib is finally it. ****

I have read posters saying their modified Falcon will go 5 X....A B to 5X would = those pictures.

 

 

****We tell the new myth loud enough and often enough, perhaps the price of old pens will come down.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson