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Sheaffer Balance OS - Grey Marbled Pearl


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#81 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 03:52

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 03:22 PM) View Post
QUOTE

QUOTE
I could dredge up countless arguments you've made that you can't trust the catalogs and that various pens, though you have no proof, were made for years.

No you can't, as I have not done as you have claimed, and you will be unable to provide any support for your claim, so there is no need to address it.

--Daniel

Your memory is shot. Just one recent example is my solid gold 1934 Sheaffer Balance that you swear was probably made in what, the early 1940s? Your data? You don't have any? Is there any evidence that supports you claim? No.

Now that you've finally conceded that I was correct that no lever-filling marbled Grey Pearl pen is listed in the 1935 catalog, we can move on to address the issue you raised above.

First, please provide the actual quote wherein I swear that your solid gold Sheaffer Balance was probably made in the early 1940s. Producing the quote is crucial so that it's perfectly clear which statement of mine you are addressing. Then, I can respond. Of course, if you can't produce the quote, well, see my previous statement you quoted above.

Thanks.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#82 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 06:06

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Apr 24 2007, 12:36 AM)
I got delivery today of a rare bird purchased on eBay late last week. Its a Sheaffer Balance Masterpiece. Its properly marked Sheaffer's and has the correct period font for the 14k hallmarks so I'm quite certain it isn't a jeweler's pen. The strange thing is that the feed and nib just seem to be 7 or 8 years later than the body and clip style. The clip screams 1932-1934 but I expected to find a flat feed and numbered Lifetime nib. I'm left wondering if the jewelry department at Sheaffer's lived on another planet with a different set of realities. That would figure as their production was low, costly and therefore specialized.

PeteWK

This is the typical configuration of the all-gold Balance-style pen. Sheaffer used this clip style on 14K pens they sold well into the 1940s.

In general, one should be cautious about assigning bracketed time periods (e.g. 1932-1934) to pen models or features, because it is illusory to consider the start date and the end date as being of the same class. Typically, the start date cited is indeed the start date -- date of first appearance. But the end date is almost never an end data at all -- it's actually the start date of the next version of that model or feature. The trap is thinking that when a new version of a feature or pen was introduced, that correlated with a termination of the older version of the feature or pen. Though the manufacturer's literature may give that impression -- they were trying to sell the newer version -- what was actually being made, assembled, and sold is usually quite different. Numerous examples demonstrate this principle -- flat-tops from 1937+, Jade pens from 1939+, etc.

--Daniel

This would be the one. And I'm still not buying what you're selling on the Grey and Pearl.


#83 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 06:38

Pete and Daniel;

I take from Daniel's comment this - Start info for Sheaffer is pretty darn good but, it is real hard to say with Sheaffer when something ended. I would agree with that sort of statement which makes date ranges hard because a start date can be well established but the end date is tricky. I said earlier the blue going '30-'33. Now that would be late '30 since it isn't in the catalogue and it may be '31 I think those are pretty strong dates. Since it isn't in the '34 brochure we might say it ended in '33 but you might have been able to order it a lot later though, probably only if it was in inventory and not because they'd make you one. I think because it is on the late '32 price sheet it was probably still in production. So late '30 early '31 good start date '32-'34 likely end dates - see lot less confidence on end dates.

One of the few times I see a solid stop to anything is the '27 transition to the limited gaurantee lines. 3-25's, 5-30's and 7-30's clearly replace 22 Student Specials, 46 Specials and Secretaries. So the last three end 1927 pretty solid end date and a darn rare event for Sheaffer.

The hardest thing to do it start making cases for pieces - they are all so interchangible. Things could look good for a pen being 1924 but it's got 1939 section and feed. You never know when the pieces got together. I like ring retained levers because it is hard to change how the lever was hooked on. I'm liking C, D, F as early radite markers because there is a lot of pen data to back it up though it is possible to polish this feature off. Clips, nibs, sections, feeds - cap to barrel matches - not a happy camper with any of this evidence - just too darn interchangible. We know pretty much what it ought to have been but there is overlap, possible archive info that has yet to make the light of day, possible left the factory that way anyway, possible dealer exchanges to make customers happy - lots of variables with pieces.

No "date codes" for us - we're Sheaffer guys and we have to do things a little differently. I'm amazed at how much "new" data we're able to come up with. This hobby has been going somewhere around 30 years and there is a boatload that we can still honestly know. Some things we'll never know but we haven't got there yet. Let's keep digging!

Roger W.

#84 Sarj

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 07:43

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 13 2007, 03:02 AM) View Post
As for the Blue 3-25, I suppose this is as good a place as any unless Roger wants another thread. This stretches the date for the Blue Balance at least from 1932 only to 1931 and 1932. I hope this illustrates the problem that arises from making hard and fast claims about dating Sheaffer's and probably other brands as well. We simply have only a small percentage of the total picture available. Our desire to get the cold hard facts are trumped by their need to react to market conditions and produce their wares in a timely, cyclical manner.

The original is a huge document at 21.5 X 32.5 inches and was sent to Sheaffer dealers as a sort of newspaper trumpeting new offerings. I suppose Sheaffer did this when they weren't producing catalogs sort of in the IN-BETWEEN years. Cost less when money really mattered.

PeteWK


Hi Pete,

This is fantastic 'new' information. I really appreciate you posting it.
Did I interpret your comments in an earlier post correctly? Is this collateral available via the PCA library?
I would love to see a full size reproduction of the whole document.

Many thanks for posting and sharing it here.
I am learning so much on this forum.

Sarj

#85 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 08:00

Sarj;

Pete, states that Fred had so much material that the PCA did NOT copy it all (much to the loss of the library!). The PCA does not have this '31 flyer that is why, for me, it is such great new information. We had nothing that I knew of in print on the blue balance until I found it on the price sheet and this is much better information than that. "N" is the code for blue by the way - it is on the '31 flyer and the '32 price sheet.

Roger W.

#86 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 14:12

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 13 2007, 02:06 AM) View Post
QUOTE(PeteWK @ Apr 24 2007, 12:36 AM)
I got delivery today of a rare bird purchased on eBay late last week. Its a Sheaffer Balance Masterpiece. Its properly marked Sheaffer's and has the correct period font for the 14k hallmarks so I'm quite certain it isn't a jeweler's pen. The strange thing is that the feed and nib just seem to be 7 or 8 years later than the body and clip style. The clip screams 1932-1934 but I expected to find a flat feed and numbered Lifetime nib. I'm left wondering if the jewelry department at Sheaffer's lived on another planet with a different set of realities. That would figure as their production was low, costly and therefore specialized.

PeteWK

This is the typical configuration of the all-gold Balance-style pen. Sheaffer used this clip style on 14K pens they sold well into the 1940s.

In general, one should be cautious about assigning bracketed time periods (e.g. 1932-1934) to pen models or features, because it is illusory to consider the start date and the end date as being of the same class. Typically, the start date cited is indeed the start date -- date of first appearance. But the end date is almost never an end data at all -- it's actually the start date of the next version of that model or feature. The trap is thinking that when a new version of a feature or pen was introduced, that correlated with a termination of the older version of the feature or pen. Though the manufacturer's literature may give that impression -- they were trying to sell the newer version -- what was actually being made, assembled, and sold is usually quite different. Numerous examples demonstrate this principle -- flat-tops from 1937+, Jade pens from 1939+, etc.

--Daniel

This would be the one. And I'm still not buying what you're selling on the Grey and Pearl.

Pete -

I'm not sure you read my post with care.

You said,

"Just one recent example is my solid gold 1934 Sheaffer Balance that you swear was probably made in what, the early 1940s?"

To back up your statement you need to produce the quote of mine where I said that. The quote you posted above has no such statement; perhaps you inadvertently selected the wrong post of mine to excerpt. To support your claim about what I said, you need to produce the quote of mine where I assert that your pen was probably made in the early 1940s.

If you can't produce the quote you say exists, it would, of course, cast serious doubt on the truth of your claim, as I'm sure you understand.

I'd love to discuss the solid gold Balances; there are a couple I've selected from omy holdings that I'd like to shoot for discussion. But let's make sure it's clear what my actual claims are first.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe


#87 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 14:21

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 13 2007, 02:06 AM) View Post
I'm still not buying what you're selling on the Grey and Pearl.

Well, let's explore that and see if we can't come to agreement.

- You now agree that the lever filler version of the marbled Grey Pearl pen is not listed in the 1935 (or 1937) catalogs, but is listed only in the 1936 catalog

- You agree that therefore, according to the catalog listings, that model was likely made for about a year (mid-1936 to mid-1937)

- Presumably you have abandoned your argument that Sheaffer made the pen in 1935 because they had the rod stock for the Vac-Fil version, as you now realize that the barrel rod stock is a different material

- You haven't disagreed with my proposition that the marbled version may have replaced the red-veined version of the lever filler sometime between the 1935 and the 1936 catalog

So what exactly is it that I'm "selling" that you're not "buying"?

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe


#88 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 14:52

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 07:34 PM) View Post
In this discussion we're limited by Sheaffer's own admission that their catalog isn't complete.


QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
The lever pen isn't listed in the [1935] catalog. My opinion is that it was being made and not in the catalog.


QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 09:51 PM) View Post
For my money in 1935, when Sheaffer had the rodstock to make the Vac-fil Models they were also making the Levers. It's just common sense. Add that to the fact that Sheaffer admits their catalog isn't exhaustive and I feel more than comfortable saying the Grey Pearl without red veins was a three year (though probably 24 consecutive months) pen.

Though the catalog is abbreviated in that Sheaffer didn't include illustrations of every model in every color, there's no indication that Sheaffer did not consider the listings to be complete. As you rely heavily on this misinterpretation in your reasoning regarding the availability of a lever filling marbled Grey Pearl Balance at the time of the 1935 catalog, it would seem that your claim in that regard is further undermined.

In light of the fact that the two bases for your argument -- availability of rod stock and Sheaffer's admission that the catalog listings are not complete -- are not valid, do you still believe that there is evidence that the lever filled marbled Grey Pearl pen was offered at the time of the 1935 catalog, and, if so, what is that evidence?

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe


#89 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 00:17

[/quote]
Though the catalog is abbreviated in that Sheaffer didn't include illustrations of every model in every color, there's no indication that Sheaffer did not consider the listings to be complete. As you rely heavily on this misinterpretation in your reasoning regarding the availability of a lever filling marbled Grey Pearl Balance at the time of the 1935 catalog, it would seem that your claim in that regard is further undermined.

In light of the fact that the two bases for your argument -- availability of rod stock and Sheaffer's admission that the catalog listings are not complete -- are not valid, do you still believe that there is evidence that the lever filled marbled Grey Pearl pen was offered at the time of the 1935 catalog, and, if so, what is that evidence?

--Daniel
[/quote]


Please refer to my answer in the new thread I've posted.

PeteWK

#90 kirchh

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 01:52

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 13 2007, 08:17 PM) View Post
QUOTE

Though the catalog is abbreviated in that Sheaffer didn't include illustrations of every model in every color, there's no indication that Sheaffer did not consider the listings to be complete. As you rely heavily on this misinterpretation in your reasoning regarding the availability of a lever filling marbled Grey Pearl Balance at the time of the 1935 catalog, it would seem that your claim in that regard is further undermined.

In light of the fact that the two bases for your argument -- availability of rod stock and Sheaffer's admission that the catalog listings are not complete -- are not valid, do you still believe that there is evidence that the lever filled marbled Grey Pearl pen was offered at the time of the 1935 catalog, and, if so, what is that evidence?

--Daniel

Please refer to my answer in the new thread I've posted.

PeteWK

The post to which you refer supports my statement that it's reasonable to assume that the marbled Grey pearl version of the lever-filled pen replaced the red-veined variety sometime between the 1935 and 1936 catalogs, so that doesn't address my question.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe


#91 kirchh

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 04:18

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
Consider the dates of the catalogs. The 1936 catalog is dated July of 1936. Let's assume that they started making the products listed just before that, maybe June, for the sake of argument. They then produced the 1937 catalog on August 1 of that year. We might assume that the pens contained in it were made a little earlier, maybe July of that year. That would place production of the non-red veined Grey and Pearl in both 1936 AND 1937, two years rather than the one year you claim. That's where you're going to have to meet me half way yourself unless you want to claim that Sheaffer made the pens from July of 1936 until December 31st of that year.

Do you contend that Sheaffer offered all the models in a given catalog up until the time they began producing the models in the subsequent catalog? For example, do you contend that Sheaffer offered all the models in the 1935 catalog up until about June of 1936?

Do you think Sheaffer would have offered slow-selling models right up until the next year's catalog when those models were dropped? Do you think Sheaffer might cease offering a model well before the next year's catalog?

Do you have any Sheaffer materials from 1937 showing a marbled Grey Pearl OS lever-filler (or any marbled Grey Pearl Lifetime pen)?

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe







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