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Sheaffer Balance OS - Grey Marbled Pearl


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#61 penpalace

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 04:24

Hi Pearce,
Thanks for your kind comments - the set is definitely one of my favourites.
Daniel and Roger have confirmed your clip style observation.
You must have one of the earliest lever fillers in this colour.
When you refer to Senior Balance, I assume you mean oversized?

I think that grey pearl OS pens are at least as rare as Roseglows. In fact, if you use ebay as a barometer, then I would say that fewer of the grey pearls crop up.

On your other comment regarding the Roseglow OS that went for just south of $800.....
Well, definitely more than I would have paid. Especially with the personalisation (worn at that)
I think it is healthy for the hobby that choice and desirable pieces attract so much attention on ebay, but it often disappoints me that so many pens are sold for premiums which far outweigh their market value when you consider the condition.

That was a $500-$600 Roseglow in that condition... no more (IMHO of course)

(link for those of you that didn't see it ...... http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=290129829607
[/quote]

Sarj,

I agree with you on the Roseglow, I'll buy an OS one of these days, but not at that price.

Yes I should have said OS, I use OS and SR as the same which is probably a mistake. I consider the other model a Full Sized Model, and not OS or SR. I guess I lucked into the earlier model. I had a chance to buy a later model last year at a show but at $385 it was a little more then I wanted to spend (not to mention I had already spent most of my budget, and the next budget after that...) You know how pen shows can go, there are just so many pens, and I have to admit that my collection is all over the map, and the Sheaffer's I am still looking for are scarce and expensive.

Pearce.

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#62 kirchh

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:16

Pete -

You've stated that the Balance lever-filler in marbled Grey Pearl is listed in the 1935 catalog.

In support of this, can you simply show the listing in the 1935 catalog of the marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there?

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#63 kirchh

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:34

Pete -

I very much wanted to address the issues you raised above regarding the solid gold Balance models, but we should first get closure on the previous matter. You've stated that the Balance lever-filler in marbled Grey Pearl is listed in the 1935 catalog. In support of this, can you simply show the listing in the 1935 catalog of the marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there? Obviously, if you agree that there is no such listing, you would be in agreement with me on that point and the matter would be settled.

I want to clear that up before I get into the all-14K Balance questions -- I went and dug up my examples of that solid gold model and I wanted to address the points you raised about them.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#64 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 15:39

Daniel, I've simply been ignoring your posts. I haven't read them at all. I've lost count of the times you've switched back and forth between "you can't date a pen by it's clip" and "I date this pen to thus and such a year because of the clip"; and "thus saith the catalog" versus "you can't trust what the catalog says". And all the other waffles. I simply don't take you seriously anymore and I generally don't think you views are trustworthy given your gross inconsistency. I think its great that you repair pens for a living, there's a need for that in the community, but I'd never assume my Honda mechanic was an expert in field of Automotive History.

PeteWK


ps - happy now?

#65 kirchh

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 15:41

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 10 2007, 11:39 AM) View Post
Daniel, I've simply been ignoring your posts. I haven't read them at all. I've lost count of the times you've switched back and forth between "you can't date a pen by it's clip" and "I date this pen to thus and such a year because of the clip"; and "thus saith the catalog" versus "you can't trust what the catalog says". And all the other waffles. I simply don't take you seriously anymore and I generally don't think you views are trustworthy given your gross inconsistency. I think its great that you repair pens for a living, there's a need for that in the community, but I'd never assume my Honda mechanic was an expert in field of Automotive History.

PeteWK


ps - happy now?

Indeed. Back to the matter at hand:

You've stated that the Balance lever-filler in marbled Grey Pearl is listed in the 1935 catalog. In support of this, can you simply show the listing in the 1935 catalog of the marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there?

You might consider the effect on the reliability of your claim that you are apparently unable to simply post the listing from the catalog that you say is there.

--Daniel

Edited by kirchh, 10 July 2007 - 15:42.

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#66 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 16:11

I'll tell you what, let's meet half way and look at this differently. Take the Sheaffer Blue Balances. They're commonly dated 1932 based on the evidence from one price sheet (as I understand it) How confident is the pen collecting community about this date given that we certainly have a fairly small percentage of the data (read: catalogs, advertisements, fliers etc) that once existed?

PeteWK

#67 Roger W.

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 17:32

Pete;

Blue balances were commonly dated 1932 without the aid of anything that I knew of. I found the 1932 price sheet had them listed first as "blue" not blue and black or blue and black and white veined or anything else. So that makes them 1932 for certain and I'd easily allow for production to have been a little earlier and a little later but, as very few of these seem ever to have been produced a tight date range is indicated.

Now, Pete, the way in which you phased your question, do you have something new to offer and if so why not just start a new thread as the blue balance has little to do with this discussion. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen blue balances with pinned levers which suggest '31 production so that would not surprise me a bit. If you are questioning the validity of 1932 because we have only the 1932 price sheet...well, I just don't see any logic in that. Now if you want to discuss the price sheet, it indicates that "Christmas term will apply...and 2% Feb. 10, 1933". I take this to mean that the price sheet was being used for Christmas orders in 1932. I could allow that this is January 1933 as it might be indicating that Christmas terms were being extended into 1933 and 2% Feb. 10 was on 30 days credit but, it does not state Feb. 10 is 30 days, 45 days, 60 days or more which would have infinitely aided in dating the price sheet. Also, being that some blue balance exhibit pins which would be earlier I tend to believe that the price sheet is solidly in 1932 for Christmas sales.

If you have new information please add it to the scant information we have for 1931-1934. I believe that we have a vast majority of catalogues and advertisements used by Sheaffer, especially advertisements as they were distributed in much greater numbers than catalogues. I will gladly admit there are many holes yet to be filled by the ads that did not have the circulation of the Saturday Evening Post, etc. and that a few more catalogues can certainly show up all of which would be vital in my estimation but, we are filling holes more than discovering vast stretches of unknown territory. There are key gaps, the teens, 1931-34 and 1942-45 any additional information in these periods would be more important than areas that are better covered.

Roger W.

#68 kirchh

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 20:58

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 12:11 PM) View Post
I'll tell you what, let's meet half way and look at this differently. Take the Sheaffer Blue Balances. They're commonly dated 1932 based on the evidence from one price sheet (as I understand it) How confident is the pen collecting community about this date given that we certainly have a fairly small percentage of the data (read: catalogs, advertisements, fliers etc) that once existed?

PeteWK

That's a really interesting brand-new topic. I suggest you post it as a separate topic so that it is most visible and properly placed in the forum.

This thread is about the marbled Grey Pearl Balance.

You've stated that the Balance lever-filler in marbled Grey Pearl is listed in the 1935 catalog. In support of this, can you simply show the listing in the 1935 catalog of the marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there?

Please note that this is not a matter of disagreement about when the model in question was actually manufactured, it's a matter of which catalogs list it. You've made a very specific claim about a listing in the 1935 catalog. I dispute that claim. All you need to do is post the listing from the 1935 catalog that you say is there. Surely that should be simple for you to do.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#69 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 00:53

QUOTE(kirchh @ Jul 12 2007, 08:58 PM) View Post
QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 12:11 PM) View Post
I'll tell you what, let's meet half way and look at this differently. Take the Sheaffer Blue Balances. They're commonly dated 1932 based on the evidence from one price sheet (as I understand it) How confident is the pen collecting community about this date given that we certainly have a fairly small percentage of the data (read: catalogs, advertisements, fliers etc) that once existed?

PeteWK

That's a really interesting brand-new topic. I suggest you post it as a separate topic so that it is most visible and properly placed in the forum.

This thread is about the marbled Grey Pearl Balance.

You've stated that the Balance lever-filler in marbled Grey Pearl is listed in the 1935 catalog. In support of this, can you simply show the listing in the 1935 catalog of the marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there?

Please note that this is not a matter of disagreement about when the model in question was actually manufactured, it's a matter of which catalogs list it. You've made a very specific claim about a listing in the 1935 catalog. I dispute that claim. All you need to do is post the listing from the 1935 catalog that you say is there. Surely that should be simple for you to do.

--Daniel




As for the Blue Balance, it does belong here because it has to do with dating Sheaffer pens.

As for the 1935 I'll agree with you in one place and disagree with you in another. The lever pen isn't listed in the catalog. My opinion is that it was being made and not in the catalog. I have no proof that it was other than reason and you have no evidence that it wasn't.

For the 1936 and 1937 question there can be not doubt at all that the Grey Pearl without red veins was being both made and sold in both years.

Consider the dates of the catalogs. The 1936 catalog is dated July of 1936. Let's assume that they started making the products listed just before that, maybe June, for the sake of argument. They then produced the 1937 catalog on August 1 of that year. We might assume that the pens contained in it were made a little earlier, maybe July of that year. That would place production of the non-red veined Grey and Pearl in both 1936 AND 1937, two years rather than the one year you claim. That's where you're going to have to meet me half way yourself unless you want to claim that Sheaffer made the pens from July of 1936 until December 31st of that year. I'll personally stick with the third year as well but feel free to disagree.

As for the Blue pen, even without any extra data, we would have to assume that Sheaffer did the same with them; making them late in one year until the middle of the following year or longer depending on how they were selling. This is the typical cycle Sheaffer used. They did just what the car companies did in rolling out their new models.

Most of the stuff the Pen Collector's of America have in their archive came from Fred's shop here in Southern California. And to hear Fred tell it they didn't scan everything, that would have been a VERY tall order. I like to read his stuff when I'm there and I suppose I just assume these things are common knowledge when they're not. I'll post a couple of scans in a minute or two: one about the 1931 Blue 3-25s and another I selected for Roger about the early 1924 pre-white dot, pre-plastic Sheaffer ads the company was running before the new models came out.

PeteWK

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 01:51

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 07:20 PM) View Post
Pete;

You have to study the catalogues as Daniel and I have done. Daniel concluded and I agreed some time ago that the "A" designated a gray pearl no red veins and the "M" designated one with red veins. It is clear when following the liturature as we were concerned about the pictures and what they illustrated and Daniel determined quite correctly that it is in the code as to which were gray pearl and which were gray pearl red veined. So you are correct, saying it doesn't make it so but the evidence supports the conclusion that I was making.

Quoting Richard's web site is far from evidence as he refines his information as additional data is found. It is an attempt to be definitive limited by the information at hand so it is by no means entirely conclusive. It's very nature of updating for new information puts it leaps and bounds ahead of the book available on the subject.

Roger W.



Edit here - Oops, forgot to add anything.

That's all fine, the lettering isn't lost on my but Daniel's logic is. As I said in the above post, there's simply no way that lever pen is a one year only pen. At the VERY LEAST it was made between the 1936 and 1937 catalogs which would mean it was produced TWO years. For my money in 1935, when Sheaffer had the rodstock to make the Vac-fil Models they were also making the Levers. It's just common sense. Add that to the fact that Sheaffer admits their catalog isn't exhaustive and I feel more than comfortable saying the Grey Pearl without red veins was a three year (though probably 24 consecutive months) pen.

PeteWK

Edited by PeteWK, 13 July 2007 - 01:56.


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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:02

As for the Blue 3-25, I suppose this is as good a place as any unless Roger wants another thread. This stretches the date for the Blue Balance at least from 1932 only to 1931 and 1932. I hope this illustrates the problem that arises from making hard and fast claims about dating Sheaffer's and probably other brands as well. We simply have only a small percentage of the total picture available. Our desire to get the cold hard facts are trumped by their need to react to market conditions and produce their wares in a timely, cyclical manner.

The original is a huge document at 21.5 X 32.5 inches and was sent to Sheaffer dealers as a sort of newspaper trumpeting new offerings. I suppose Sheaffer did this when they weren't producing catalogs sort of in the IN-BETWEEN years. Cost less when money really mattered.

PeteWK

Attached Images

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  • Blue_06.jpg

Edited by PeteWK, 13 July 2007 - 02:05.


#72 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:17

Pete;

That's a damn nice piece and situated in a dark corner - 1931-34. Some amazing desk set stuff. As I said based on pinned levers I would not be surprised at all if 1931 was involved in blue balances. I've never said they were 1932 only but, they have been touted as one year only by many. There are key areas which more documents will come to light for those looking for them. Many people have documents that have never been even causually examined for clues as to certain aspects on Sheaffer. You have to spend a lot of time looking over stuff and then, sometimes, wow, this is news. I'll be looking over this document for some time - such a lot there.

Roger W.

#73 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:29

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post
As for the 1935 I'll agree with you in one place and disagree with you in another. The lever pen isn't listed in the catalog.

I really appreciate your willingness to admit your error in this regard; it means that when anyone reads this thread thoroughly, it will be clear that you have retracted your several earlier statements to the contrary, and that there is now agreement on this point. We have enough misinformation in the hobby without leaving factual questions like this up in the air on these boards.

QUOTE
My opinion is that it was being made and not in the catalog. I have no proof that it was other than reason and you have no evidence that it wasn't.

You are free to hold and express that belief, and no one will be misled as long as you no longer claim that your opinion is supported by a catalog listing that doesn't actually exist.

QUOTE
For the 1936 and 1937 question there can be not doubt at all that the Grey Pearl without red veins was being both made and sold in both years.

Consider the dates of the catalogs. The 1936 catalog is dated July of 1936. Let's assume that they started making the products listed just before that, maybe June, for the sake of argument. They then produced the 1937 catalog on August 1 of that year. We might assume that the pens contained in it were made a little earlier, maybe July of that year. That would place production of the non-red veined Grey and Pearl in both 1936 AND 1937, two years rather than the one year you claim. That's where you're going to have to meet me half way yourself unless you want to claim that Sheaffer made the pens from July of 1936 until December 31st of that year.

I think you're confused. Perhaps you could provide the actual quote of mine in which I claim that the model in question was only being made in calendar year 1936.

What you seem to be saying above is that according to the information in the catalogs you've examined, the model was likely made for about a year, is that correct? That is, strictly according to the information that's in the catalogs.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#74 sheafferkid

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:37

Wow Pete, that is a very nice document. Stunning pictures (although black and white.) Man, I bet that ensemble with a desk pen, a pocket pen, a golf pencil. and a normal pencil would go for a bunch if found NIB. Man I'd like one... wub.gif I wish I could read the writing for each ensemble, desk set, and pen/pencil set. That is just fabulous!! Thanks for sharing that!!

Evan
Sheaffer all the way!

#75 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:47

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 09:51 PM) View Post
That's all fine, the lettering isn't lost on my but Daniel's logic is. As I said in the above post, there's simply no way that lever pen is a one year only pen.

Let's be clear: by the above, you mean "there's simply no way that lever pen is a one calendar year only pen."

Please provide the quotation in which I claimed that the pen was a one calendar year only model.

QUOTE
At the VERY LEAST it was made between the 1936 and 1937 catalogs which would mean it was produced TWO years.

Let's be clear: by the above, you mean, "At the VERY LEAST it was made between the 1936 and 1937 catalogs which would mean it was produced during TWO calendar years, and for about one year."

QUOTE
For my money in 1935, when Sheaffer had the rodstock to make the Vac-fil Models they were also making the Levers. It's just common sense.

By that reasoning, Sheaffer was also making red-veined Vacuum-Fil models.

Then there is the fact that the rod stock for the marbled Grey Pearl Vacuum-Fil barrels is different from the rod stock for the marbled Grey Pearl lever filler barrels -- a fact that voids your reasoning.

QUOTE
Add that to the fact that Sheaffer admits their catalog isn't exhaustive and I feel more than comfortable saying the Grey Pearl without red veins was a three year (though probably 24 consecutive months) pen.

In light of the failure of the rod stock argument, that time period would decline to a period about a year long based on the catalogs we've examined. Not unreasonable to conclude that it could be a somewhat longer period as it can be assumed that the marbled lever pen replaced the red-veined version sometime between the '35 and '36 catalogs.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#76 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:49

Pete;

On reflection, I think the blue is such a special piece that you should start a seperate thread for it. The info is going to be lost to many in this meandering thread. So please post it seperately - I'll put my scan of the catalogue page up and we'll be covering October '31 to Christmas '32 for the blue - just great info. I love that we have something with a picture on it as the price sheet never jumped out at me until last year looking a 3-25 pricing.

Roger W.

#77 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 02:52

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jul 12 2007, 12:11 PM) View Post
Take the Sheaffer Blue Balances. They're commonly dated 1932 based on the evidence from one price sheet (as I understand it) How confident is the pen collecting community about this date given that we certainly have a fairly small percentage of the data (read: catalogs, advertisements, fliers etc) that once existed?

PeteWK

I'm not sure who "commonly dates" blue Balances to 1932, but examples consistent with late-1930 manufacture are regularly seen.

--Dnaiel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#78 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 03:04

Daniel;

I believe 1932 is stated on Richard's site. I think it may be qouted in books for that date but, we know what that is worth.

You and I and certainly Pete agree that the Blue was in production in 1931 and may have been in '30 as we don't know precisely that the factory changed entirely to the internal ring retained lever in November 1930 per the internal memo or started then and was probably completed in early '31. We know that the blue is on a late '32 price sheet - therefore, still available for sale in '33 as far as I'm concerned. So '30-'33 or '31-'33 would be a more accurate range for blue's production.

This should really have it's own thread.

Roger W.

#79 kirchh

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 03:06

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jul 12 2007, 11:04 PM) View Post
This should really have it's own thread.

Roger W.

I think I said that a few posts back...

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#80 Roger W.

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Posted 13 July 2007 - 03:32

Daniel;

I said it one post above your post. thumbup.gif

Roger W.






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