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Sheaffer Balance OS - Grey Marbled Pearl


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#41 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:22

QUOTE
I could dredge up countless arguments you've made that you can't trust the catalogs and that various pens, though you have no proof, were made for years.

No you can't, as I have not done as you have claimed, and you will be unable to provide any support for your claim, so there is no need to address it.

--Daniel


Your memory is shot. Just one recent example is my solid gold 1934 Sheaffer Balance that you swear was probably made in what, the early 1940s? Your data? You don't have any? Is there any evidence that supports you claim? No. On the contrary, all the evidence that can't be manipulated (clip, cap, body etc) supports an earlier date.

I'm not surprised you don't think there's any need to address this issue, though. Its at the heart of what makes your input suspect and inconsistent.

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#42 Roger W.

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:33

Pete;

Jan's pen is clearly catalogued as A8T in the 1936 issue - visualated $10 (page 4).

Roger W.

#43 penpalace

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:40

Thanks for the clarification.
So we can reasonably assert that the grey pearl marbled (without red veins) was first made available in 1935 but in Vac fil only. The first mention of the grey pearl in lever fill was the 1936 catalogue - yes?

This makes sense now as I have only seen the lever fill pens with the later (radius) clip style.
[/quote]

Sarj,

Don't want to throw a wrench into your thoughts on the clips but I have a lever fill pen with the same clip as yours.
By the way your vac set is stunning! I have a vac as well but yours is certaily better, and I don't have the pencil!

Pearce.


#44 penpalace

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:44

Just another quick not to thank Sarj, Roger, and Daniel for posting some more info on this colour and size of pen. As I just mentioned in a post above I have a Sr in both Vac and Lever fill models, I had actually considered selling the lever fill model a while ago but finally decided against it, I had no idea as Daniel commented that the lever fill models were more scarce. You do see so few of them on Ebay these days, and between battling with several of you on the other rare Sheaffer pens that do surface I haven't really added an incredible piece in a while, (the roseglow that just went off went for much more then I could afford for example).

Thanks again for the info and I will certainly continue to follow this thread!

Pearce.


#45 Roger W.

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:46

Pearce;

Is your lever fill a white dot? That would make a difference.

Roger W.

#46 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:54

QUOTE(Sarj @ Jun 24 2007, 02:00 PM) View Post
So we can reasonably assert that the grey pearl marbled (without red veins) was first made available in 1935 but in Vac fil only. The first mention of the grey pearl in lever fill was the 1936 catalogue - yes?

This makes sense now as I have only seen the lever fill pens with the later (radius) clip style.

Grey Pearl marbled was first made available in 1934 in Vacuum-Fil only (non-Lifetime) as far as I know. First mention in lever fill was, as you say, in the '36 catalog.

Occasionally a lever fill OS Grey Pearl marbled pen will show up with a flat ball clip. I have at least one in that configuration. Difficult to date precisely, but not unreasonable to assume it replaced the red-veined version sometime between the '35 and '36 catalogs.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

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#47 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:56

QUOTE(Sarj @ Jun 24 2007, 12:54 PM) View Post
The earliest clip configuration that I have come across for the Grey Marbled pen is the set that I posted in this thread. That clip (flat ball humped, short clip) was first introduced in 1935.

I am reasonably confident based on catalogue information and pens in my posession that the grey marbled colour was produced for 2 years only. 1935 and 1936.

Flat ball clip dates to at least as early as 1934, as does the Grey Pearl marbled color, per ads, etc.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#48 penpalace

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 19:58

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 07:46 PM) View Post
Pearce;

Is your lever fill a white dot? That would make a difference.

Roger W.


Yes Roger, both of mine, the lever fill and vac fill are both white dot pens.

Pearce.


#49 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:01

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 03:22 PM) View Post
QUOTE
QUOTE
I could dredge up countless arguments you've made that you can't trust the catalogs and that various pens, though you have no proof, were made for years.

No you can't, as I have not done as you have claimed, and you will be unable to provide any support for your claim, so there is no need to address it.

--Daniel

Your memory is shot. Just one recent example is my solid gold 1934 Sheaffer Balance that you swear was probably made in what, the early 1940s? Your data? You don't have any? Is there any evidence that supports you claim? No. On the contrary, all the evidence that can't be manipulated (clip, cap, body etc) supports an earlier date.

I'm not surprised you don't think there's any need to address this issue, though. Its at the heart of what makes your input suspect and inconsistent.

First things first. Has the truth found you on the question of which Sheaffer catalogs list the Grey Pearl marbled pen in a lever-filler? I said just 1936; you first claimed 1935, 1936, 1937, then just 1935 and 1936.

Let's put that issue to bed, and then we can move on to the matter raised in your post above.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#50 Roger W.

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:04

Daniel;

I would venture to say that grey pearl dates to '33 as the brochure for "New profitable items for 1934" is dated January of 1934 and ebonized pearl is brand new and grey pearl is just a regular offering suggesting that it had debued some time before.

Pearce;

A flat ball clip on a lever could be transition from '35 to '36 as Daniel states. The '36 catalogue actually came out in July of that year.

Roger W.

#51 penpalace

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:15

Great to know the dates of the pen, thanks Roger! I'll have to bring a few Sheaffer pieces to show you in Ohio this year.

Pearce.


#52 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:18

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 04:04 PM) View Post
Daniel;

I would venture to say that grey pearl dates to '33 as the brochure for "New profitable items for 1934" is dated January of 1934 and ebonized pearl is brand new and grey pearl is just a regular offering suggesting that it had debued some time before.

The Grey Pearl referred to and shown in the brochure is the red veined variety.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe


#53 Roger W.

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:29

Daniel;

Yes the red veined variety - it was going back to your 1934 comment. We kind of have two theads running at once here. Should have noted to stay clear on the topic.

Roger W.

#54 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 20:52

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 04:29 PM) View Post
Daniel;

Yes the red veined variety - it was going back to your 1934 comment. We kind of have two theads running at once here. Should have noted to stay clear on the topic.

Roger W.

Yes, I was referring to marbled Grey Pearl in my 1934 comment. Note that red-veined Grey Pearl dates to at least as early as late '32, as it's on that order blank.

--Daniel

Edited by kirchh, 24 June 2007 - 20:53.

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#55 Sarj

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 22:21

QUOTE
Sarj,

Don't want to throw a wrench into your thoughts on the clips but I have a lever fill pen with the same clip as yours.
By the way your vac set is stunning! I have a vac as well but yours is certaily better, and I don't have the pencil!

Pearce.

Hi Pearce,
Thanks for your kind comments - the set is definitely one of my favourites.
Daniel and Roger have confirmed your clip style observation.
You must have one of the earliest lever fillers in this colour.
When you refer to Senior Balance, I assume you mean oversized?

I think that grey pearl OS pens are at least as rare as Roseglows. In fact, if you use ebay as a barometer, then I would say that fewer of the grey pearls crop up.

On your other comment regarding the Roseglow OS that went for just south of $800.....
Well, definitely more than I would have paid. Especially with the personalisation (worn at that)
I think it is healthy for the hobby that choice and desirable pieces attract so much attention on ebay, but it often disappoints me that so many pens are sold for premiums which far outweigh their market value when you consider the condition.

That was a $500-$600 Roseglow in that condition... no more (IMHO of course)

(link for those of you that didn't see it ...... http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=290129829607
Sarj

#56 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 23:19

QUOTE(kirchh @ Jun 24 2007, 07:21 PM) View Post
QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 03:16 PM) View Post
QUOTE(Jan @ Jun 24 2007, 07:06 PM) View Post
Just for grins, here's a pic of an OS lever filler gray pearl.

Nice pen. Also a non-catalog pen. Very interesting.

PeteWK

Cataloged as model A8T on page 4 of the 1936 catalog. See your own scan here.

--Daniel



My memory is so sharp I even almost remember that scan I put up today. I hit 40 recently and the mind is fading. I've included the detail here. My interpretation of that would be the Grey Pearl lever pen should be have Gold Fill as the A8T pen does. It would seem to me that Sheaffer would issue different part numbers for a pen depending on the trim fill. That would make the above pen a non-catalog item. That's certainly OK by me. As for other limiting factors in establishing dates etc., refer to my response to Roger.

PeteWK

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#57 Guest_PeteWK_*

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 23:34

QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 07:20 PM) View Post
Pete;

You have to study the catalogues as Daniel and I have done. Daniel concluded and I agreed some time ago that the "A" designated a gray pearl no red veins and the "M" designated one with red veins. It is clear when following the liturature as we were concerned about the pictures and what they illustrated and Daniel determined quite correctly that it is in the code as to which were gray pearl and which were gray pearl red veined. So you are correct, saying it doesn't make it so but the evidence supports the conclusion that I was making.

Quoting Richard's web site is far from evidence as he refines his information as additional data is found. It is an attempt to be definitive limited by the information at hand so it is by no means entirely conclusive. It's very nature of updating for new information puts it leaps and bounds ahead of the book available on the subject.

Roger W.



I could make a long list of objections but they generally emit from my side of the mountain (they say you take a stand based on where you've been sitting). Like many on this board I've slogged through a col-edge edgamakayshun (that's Greek for College Education). In my Research Methods coursework I learned many things about acceptable scholarship. Opinions are great but they must go through rigorous debate and peer review before a hypothisis can be considered anything but. I would call this board a platform for rigorous debate. I've read the catalogs as well and have come to a different conclusion. What's needed is much deeper than we're either capable of or motivated to accomplish. The below scans are from that 1935 catalog.

In this discussion we're limited by Sheaffer's own admission that their catalog isn't complete. We simply can't know the things you and Daniel are taking for fact. We can guess. You're guessing one way and I'm guessing another, seperated by one year. Sheaffer mentions that there are 4 primary colors in the catalog but that others (colors? pens? styles?) are included. I agree with Daniel that at least Grey Pearl with red veins can be seen in the catalog. What else was available? We don't know. The paragraph pretty much (at the very least) does in the assertion that a non-red veined Grey Pearl lever pen COULD NOT have been made in 1935.

That leaves both of us free to assert different views of the same data. Short of a smoking Sheaffer gun or letter signed by W. A. Sheaffer himself we may never know for sure.

My issue here is that what passes for pen scholarship (is there such a thing?) is lacking. I reject anyone's infallibility.

Pete

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Edited by PeteWK, 24 June 2007 - 23:43.


#58 kirchh

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 23:38

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 07:19 PM) View Post
QUOTE(kirchh @ Jun 24 2007, 07:21 PM) View Post
QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 03:16 PM) View Post
QUOTE(Jan @ Jun 24 2007, 07:06 PM) View Post
Just for grins, here's a pic of an OS lever filler gray pearl.

Nice pen. Also a non-catalog pen. Very interesting.

PeteWK

Cataloged as model A8T on page 4 of the 1936 catalog. See your own scan here.

--Daniel

My memory is so sharp I even almost remember that scan I put up today. I hit 40 recently and the mind is fading. I've included the detail here. My interpretation of that would be the Grey Pearl lever pen should be have Gold Fill as the A8T pen does. It would seem to me that Sheaffer would issue different part numbers for a pen depending on the trim fill. That would make the above pen a non-catalog item. That's certainly OK by me. As for other limiting factors in establishing dates etc., refer to my response to Roger.

PeteWK

I don't understand your statement "the Grey Pearl lever pen should be have Gold Fill as the A8T pen does." The A8T is the Grey Pearl lever pen, and it has chromium-plated trim, as do all marbled Grey Pearl pens in the catalog.

The pen shown is exactly that listed in the 1936 catalog as the A8T.

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#59 kirchh

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 00:44

QUOTE(PeteWK @ Jun 24 2007, 07:34 PM) View Post
QUOTE(Roger W. @ Jun 24 2007, 07:20 PM) View Post
Pete;

You have to study the catalogues as Daniel and I have done. Daniel concluded and I agreed some time ago that the "A" designated a gray pearl no red veins and the "M" designated one with red veins. It is clear when following the liturature as we were concerned about the pictures and what they illustrated and Daniel determined quite correctly that it is in the code as to which were gray pearl and which were gray pearl red veined. So you are correct, saying it doesn't make it so but the evidence supports the conclusion that I was making.

Quoting Richard's web site is far from evidence as he refines his information as additional data is found. It is an attempt to be definitive limited by the information at hand so it is by no means entirely conclusive. It's very nature of updating for new information puts it leaps and bounds ahead of the book available on the subject.

Roger W.

I could make a long list of objections but they generally emit from my side of the mountain (they say you take a stand based on where you've been sitting). Like many on this board I've slogged through a col-edge edgamakayshun (that's Greek for College Education). In my Research Methods coursework I learned many things about acceptable scholarship. Opinions are great but they must go through rigorous debate and peer review before a hypothisis can be considered anything but. I would call this board a platform for rigorous debate. I've read the catalogs as well and have come to a different conclusion. What's needed is much deeper than we're either capable of or motivated to accomplish. The below scans are from that 1935 catalog.

In this discussion we're limited by Sheaffer's own admission that their catalog isn't complete. We simply can't know the things you and Daniel are taking for fact. We can guess. You're guessing one way and I'm guessing another, seperated by one year. Sheaffer mentions that there are 4 primary colors in the catalog but that others (colors? pens? styles?) are included. I agree with Daniel that at least Grey Pearl with red veins can be seen in the catalog. What else was available? We don't know. The paragraph pretty much (at the very least) does in the assertion that a non-red veined Grey Pearl lever pen COULD NOT have been made in 1935.

That leaves both of us free to assert different views of the same data. Short of a smoking Sheaffer gun or letter signed by W. A. Sheaffer himself we may never know for sure.

My issue here is that what passes for pen scholarship (is there such a thing?) is lacking. I reject anyone's infallibility.

Pete

Your position is baffling.

You accept that the 1935 catalog shows red-veined Grey Pearl pens. You accept that the 1935 catalog shows marbled Grey Pearl pens. The color code for red-veined Grey Pearl is indisputably M; the color code for marbled Grey Pearl is indisputably A. You accept that the catalog lists the Oversize Grey Pearl pen in Vaccum-Fil ("visible") as code A8W, which is marbled Grey Pearl; you accept that the catalog lists the Oversize Grey Pearl pen in lever-filler as code M8TC, which is red-veined Grey Pearl. There is no listing in the catalog for an Oversize marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler, which would be code A8TC.

Therefore, the 1935 catalog does not list an Oversize marbled Grey Pearl lever filler.

Please explain which statement you consider erroneous, and why.

In the alternative, simply point out the listing in the 1935 catalog of the Oversize marbled Grey Pearl lever-filler you say is there.

--Daniel

Edited by kirchh, 25 June 2007 - 00:51.

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
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#60 Roger W.

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 01:30

Pete;

Daniel laid out the case as well as anyone could and it is based on facts supported in the catalogues. This rises to a high standard of evidence which typically, when it runs against your grain, you start throwing out as things being made up or our little theories or anything but what it actually is. I would state emphatically the you can study the catalogues for years and still not have grasped everything. So if someone comes along and starts spouting catalogue info that, without the careful study and reflection necessary, is wrong it is indeed fair to point out the errors and hope that we attain a higher truth. Grey pens typically have chromium trim, it is a huge falicy to state otherwise when the catalogues and pens bear this out. Please show me the scads of grey pearl non red veined OS's that are in gold trim - I've not seen one and the catalogues do not support such a model. So the A8T is an OS gray pearl with chromium trim as it is in the catalogue no interpretation necessary, no letter from Walter (or Craig at this time) or smoking gun Sheaffer memo needed.

Roger W.






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