Writing With Grail Pens

[JakobS]

Reading almost all of the replies, I get the impression that none of you ever have vintage pens.

 

What about a pen that has significant historical value? One of a kind sample that may be the only surviving member of its entire production?

 

Are you still going to use it as though it's a Lamy Safari that you can buy from Amazon to replace if damaged or missing?

 

Yes, fountain pens are made to be used, but when they have significant historical value, they cease to be a tool, and became an artifact.

 

For me, there is a place in my collection for pens that I won't consider inking up and using. And no, I have no lacking of other pens (mostly vintage, actually) that I can enjoy and use.

The majority of my pens are vintage, my grail pen is not. The rarest vintage pen I have, is also one of my best writers, and if it crumbles between my fingers as I write, I would consider that to be the most appropriate way to go for such an amazing pen.

 

Obviously, a collector who is out to gather the most uncommon or unusual pens with little desire to actually write with them has a different idea of a grail pen, than others in the fountain pen community. Honestly though, I leave such collecting to actual museums and institutions that have the proper know how and facilities to preserve these pens. Otherwise, to be frank, I see most personal collections as sticks of plastic sitting around waiting to disentigrate, as no significant portion of humanity is ever going to see or understand them, or appreciate whatever historic value they may hold. History is for the masses, it is of no value ferreted away in hopes a descendent might someday appreciate the pen as much as you....

Edited February 27, 2019 by JakobS

[A Smug Dill]

Reading almost all of the replies, I get the impression that none of you ever have vintage pens.

 

What about a pen that has significant historical value? One of a kind sample that may be the only surviving member of its entire production?

What about it? Are these pens on some official world heritage list or register, such that there is an onus on the owner (or prospective buyer) to preserve its 'historical value' because the Government says so, as part and parcel of having clear title of such a privately-owned chattel or property, and penalties apply for failing to do so?

 

Are you still going to use it as though it's a Lamy Safari that you can buy from Amazon to replace if damaged or missing?

I'm just not sure whether you mean:

• I personally value the item's supposed/alleged historical significance, and have factored it into my consideration of whether it is a grail pen in my eyes, irrespective of any consideration of prestige of ownership or resale value; or
• you and/or some other fountain pen enthusiast think there is 'historical value' in the item, and that somehow (very tenuously) puts an obligation on the owner to protect it, outside of considerations of the item's value on the collectors' market; or
• the Government says I'd better not 'damage' the item of such 'significant historical value' OR ELSE.

I personally wouldn't care if a fountain pen was the only one ever carved out of dinosaur bone, if the Government did not tell me that my ownership rights are constrained by virtue of that, and I have no plans for selling the item and thus want to extract the highest price for it. The pens that I own but can't bring myself to use are precious in my eyes, not because of any 'historical value' and not because anyone else says so (indirectly by the market price of NOS versus used, or otherwise). The last Delta fountain pen off the production line before the company shut down its operations does not have any more value than a currently still in production model of Pilot pen that sells for the same price or more, unless I think I may want to sell the Delta at some point.

 

Yes, fountain pens are made to be used, but when they have significant historical value, they cease to be a tool, and became an artefact.

Sorry, and I don't want to be rude, but here's the rub: not on your say-so alone, if you're not the current owner of that item. You can choose to treat any fountain pen you own as artefacts, but your views in that regard have no standing with anyone else (who may or may not be collectors or resellers of fountain pens).

 

Something I own 'is' an artefact or treasure and will be treated as such if I say so, and not because someone else 'knows better' and tells me how that item ought to be treated, used and/or disposed.

[Sicblades14]

I did get a couple of vintage pens and I did enjoy writing with them but I guess I prefer modern pens more at this particular point in time.

 

There is just so much to the hobby that I can't feel like whatever I do is the "right" thing to do. We all have our preferences, and I guess for certain pens the emotional attachment to them is different.

 

I can't see myself owning more than 6 pens at this point in time, but I see people with hundreds of them... I don't know how functional is it to have 100s of pens, but people have them anyway. I couldn't imagine keeping track of all that, I can hardly remember what I ate for breakfast

[penwash]

The majority of my pens are vintage, my grail pen is not. The rarest vintage pen I have, is also one of my best writers, and if it crumbles between my fingers as I write, I would consider that to be the most appropriate way to go for such an amazing pen.

 

Obviously, a collector who is out to gather the most uncommon or unusual pens with little desire to actually write with them has a different idea of a grail pen, than others in the fountain pen community. Honestly though, I leave such collecting to actual museums and institutions that have the proper know how and facilities to preserve these pens. Otherwise, to be frank, I see most personal collections as sticks of plastic sitting around waiting to disentigrate, as no significant portion of humanity is ever going to see or understand them, or appreciate whatever historic value they may hold. History is for the masses, it is of no value ferreted away in hopes a descendent might someday appreciate the pen as much as you....

 

I'm curious as to the origin of your condescending comment on those who like to collect pens for their historical value?

 

Look at Pen Hero, Jim Mamoulides. He collects, publishes, and tell "the masses" how unique and cool vintage pens are. You don't have to be a museum or "have the facilities to preserve" to own vintage pens that is unique. You just have to like them enough and appreciate them.

 

Just as your bent on "writing until it crumbles" freedom, everyone is also free to collect and treat some pens as artifacts and never write with them. No?

[penwash]

Sorry, and I don't want to be rude, but here's the rub: not on your say-so alone, if you're not the current owner of that item. You can choose to treat any fountain pen you own as artefacts, but your views in that regard have no standing with anyone else (who may or may not be collectors or resellers of fountain pens).

 

Something I own 'is' an artefact or treasure and will be treated as such if I say so, and not because someone else 'knows better' and tells me how that item ought to be treated, used and/or disposed.

 

 

There is simply nothing to be rude about. That paragraph I quoted above is your say-so also, isn't it?

So the same rule applies that I don't have to agree with it, just like you don't agree with me.

 

You may think that only you gets to decide what's an artifact and what is not. And in a narrow degree of application, it can be, there isn't a pen police or a pen judge who will put a penalty for any violation, after all we are talking about a harmless hobby where all agreements are based on goodwill and transactions where it applies.

 

But there are certain standards that are considered by anyone in this hobby to be an artifact or at least worth some preservation effort. Otherwise, none of the books written and research done by a lot of people in this hobby matters. And they do matter, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[A Smug Dill]

I'm curious as to the origin of your condescending comment on those who like to collect pens for their historical value?

How is that condescending? The gist of JakobS's comment as I read it is, "you do you." No other buyer, collector and/or user of fountain pens need concur with either your assessment of the value of an individual writing instrument (whether it is "vintage" or not), or what you see as the underlying values of the hobby (that others have simply not signed up to share).

 

Just as your bent on "writing until it crumbles" freedom, everyone is also free to collect and treat some pens as artifacts and never write with them. No?

They're indeed free to do so, but you seem to imply that anyone who "have vintage pens" would know to cherish their supposed "historical value", or are under some sort of obligation to consider others' sentiments about such "artefacts", when at the end of the day we're talking about chattels owned by someone else, and just consumer goods at that by the very nature of the products. The very same only surviving unit of a 1890s limited edition fountain pen of twelve ever made could be regarded as an artefact, or a "grail pen" for whatever qualities it possess as a fine writing instrument, or a still-in-service user-grade device with which to make ink marks on paper, or a piece of junk by four different (current or prospective) owners. People are of course more than welcome to share their views with the "community", but "this is a fine writing instrument with significant historical value" as an opinion of a given pen does not inherently warrant more respect that another community peer's opinion that "this is an old piece of junk that is looking rather tarnished and barely writes." You cannot reasonably expect the more favourable opinion of a thing to be regarded as carrying more weight, or that someone with a poorer opinion of it to accommodate others and yield possession of the item to those who value it more highly, in the name of "the hobby". The acquisition, collection and/or use of fountain pens is ultimately an individual pursuit, and not a shared initiative or activity. Three random joggers in the botanic gardens need not agree on any aspect of running as a hobby, irrespective of whether they all meet somewhere and have exchanges about their views; nothing invalidates how they choose to run.

 

But there are certain standards that are considered by anyone in this hobby to be an artifact or at least worth some preservation effort. Otherwise, none of the books written and research done by a lot of people in this hobby matters. And they do matter, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

If something is not authoritatively declared, decreed and/or defined, and I'm not looking to trade, then others' opinion and valuation have no standing with me, even though as a matter of course I respect (and would gladly acknowledge) their prerogative to hold such opinions to the same degree I respect my right to ignore their views and conclusions.

[bobje]

The tone of this thread needs to become more respectful. Let’s not ascribe intent to other people when we have no idea of their intent, and let’s acknowledge that it’s entirely possible we are wrong. We are talking about fountain pens. This is not a medical decision involving life and death.

[Honeybadgers]

Let's just all agree it'd be weird for someone to use JFK's pen.

 

Nobody's actually wrong here. Some things do have true historical, unique significance, and others, while they may be limited editions and utter works of art in their own right, are still just tools.

 

Also, you can consider writing with a grail pen as doing the world a favor. You may not be doing it any favors, but think of it like running up and down the streets waving your Picasso over your head. Other people get to enjoy it as well. So there are merits to all sides of both arguments. It's stupid to run around with a $15,000 work of art maki-e pen. But it's also stupid not to.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[Uncial]

I've been following this with interest and the robust debate has been an interesting read that has parallels in all sorts of collecting hobbies. In another hobby area that I used to collect (back when I could afford it before prices went crazy) there are certain 'collectors' who 'buy to burn'. There are some areas of the antiques and collectible markets where the same thing happens and there are those who 'buy to burn' or 'buy to destroy'. It usually happens where there are multiples of an object that is still relatively rare and a collector can purchase the multiples, keeping one or two of the best examples and burn or destroy the rest to create a 'false' inflation of value. Thankfully I have never heard of this happening in pen collecting communities. Perhaps the conversation has moved from what most of us would consider a 'grail' pen (something we would probably most likely use) and into the realm of 'rare' pens, which to me at least might be a slightly different topic. A rare pen might also have some historical significance, like a connection to a famous person or the first off the manufacturing floor or one of the last surviving eight models known to exist from an important company or manufacturer.

 

In the case of a grail pen, I have one or two that I truly hankered after and now that I own them I use them. They aren't especially rare, so I don't have any concerns about using them. I think if I owned a pen that was classified in the 'rare' department and was historically significant I might have qualms about using it. When it comes to owning anything that is rare and has historical significance (not that's there's much in that category in my house!), I don't think of myself as the owner. I try to preserve it as best I can and consider myself a custodian.

[Tadeo]

Lets suggest another classification!

 

We may consider Value and Utility. Any object has both properties and those are assigned inside everybody's brain in a context-dependent manner.

 

Herein, utility is defined as what use(s) does the object have. For a pen it might be as a tool to perform a task, as a status symbol, as a source of pleasure, etc. The number of utility categories is not fixed and categories may overlap.

 

Value, as defined here, refers to how the object is ranked after a global evaluation of its utility. As each person assigns different weights for all uses considered, the ranking ends up being totally idiosyncratic.

 

So, in this case, it is completely understandable that someone who ranks higher the capacity of a tool to perform the task for what it was intended, ends up using the pen to write. Another person who ranks higher the capacity of an object to produce pleasure because of its beauty may end up preserving the look of the pen and not using it for writing.

 

Of course, the ranking scheme varies in the same person over time and over objects, so I can have an overly expensive pen in constant use, while I keep a pen that I consider pretty in its box to admire it ocasionally, and also have a pen that I consider awful to look at and not functional but keep it because it belonged to a famous character that I admire, so the pen is not for writing or admiring , but to remember.

 

We should not feel surprised if we don't agree on the use vs preserve issue, even with our past and/or future selves!

 

Tadeo

[zaddick]

Lets suggest another classification!

 

We may consider Value and Utility. Any object has both properties and those are assigned inside everybody's brain in a context-dependent manner.

 

Herein, utility is defined as what use(s) does the object have. For a pen it might be as a tool to perform a task, as a status symbol, as a source of pleasure, etc. The number of utility categories is not fixed and categories may overlap.

 

Value, as defined here, refers to how the object is ranked after a global evaluation of its utility. As each person assigns different weights for all uses considered, the ranking ends up being totally idiosyncratic.

 

So, in this case, it is completely understandable that someone who ranks higher the capacity of a tool to perform the task for what it was intended, ends up using the pen to write. Another person who ranks higher the capacity of an object to produce pleasure because of its beauty may end up preserving the look of the pen and not using it for writing.

 

Of course, the ranking scheme varies in the same person over time and over objects, so I can have an overly expensive pen in constant use, while I keep a pen that I consider pretty in its box to admire it ocasionally, and also have a pen that I consider awful to look at and not functional but keep it because it belonged to a famous character that I admire, so the pen is not for writing or admiring , but to remember.

 

We should not feel surprised if we don't agree on the use vs preserve issue, even with our past and/or future selves!

 

Tadeo

So a fancy way to say do what you feel?

[Tadeo]

So a fancy way to say do what you feel?

Well, yeah, but it is not a suggestion, it is an observation. This is what we do. Our valuation of objects (and people) may be similar to someone else's, but is not identical, and the you of the past, the you of now and the you of the future are different persons.

 

We already have this solved. We are FPN community members because we value fountain pens, and we agree with some members more than with others. Each opinion is justified, but the complete justification is only available for orurselves. New information changes our valuation scheme, and because we are constantly picking new information, our opinions flow (some more than others)

 

Tadeo.

[zaddick]

I'm all for civilized sharing of opinions and photos and writing samples. I'm less about trying to create absolutes in a relative world.

[como]

Do what you feel most comfortable doing: sell it, use it, touch it, look at it, or whatever. Just don't agonise over it. That's a torture! Personally I would just use it. When it gets lost, stolen, broken etc, you'd be glad that at least you got the most out of it.

[Sicblades14]

I sold it

 

I'm sure in it's a better place now - I'm glad to have written a couple of sentences with it, but it's in a better place

[Madeline]

I sold it

 

I'm sure in it's a better place now - I'm glad to have written a couple of sentences with it, but it's in a better place

 

I think that's a great way to look at it. I suspect that every pen that passes through our lives carries a bit of us with it as it moves on to another owner. And hopefully your pen's new owner will feel that joy within this very special pen.

 

By the way, I appreciated what you said about "keeping track" of our pens: "I can't see myself owning more than 6 pens at this point in time, but I see people with hundreds of them... I don't know how functional is it to have 100s of pens, but people have them anyway. I couldn't imagine keeping track of all that, I can hardly remember what I ate for breakfast." As another who can barely remember this morning's breakfast, I am also somewhat bewildered by my own collection of fountain pens. It's already outgrown the box that I bought for it. I'll try to remember what you said each time a new pen sneaks into the house via the letter box!

 

(Say, does this mean that you can now start looking for a new grail pen? )

[Sicblades14]

 

I think that's a great way to look at it. I suspect that every pen that passes through our lives carries a bit of us with it as it moves on to another owner. And hopefully your pen's new owner will feel that joy within this very special pen.

 

By the way, I appreciated what you said about "keeping track" of our pens: "I can't see myself owning more than 6 pens at this point in time, but I see people with hundreds of them... I don't know how functional is it to have 100s of pens, but people have them anyway. I couldn't imagine keeping track of all that, I can hardly remember what I ate for breakfast." As another who can barely remember this morning's breakfast, I am also somewhat bewildered by my own collection of fountain pens. It's already outgrown the box that I bought for it. I'll try to remember what you said each time a new pen sneaks into the house via the letter box!

 

(Say, does this mean that you can now start looking for a new grail pen? )

 

I have a Nakaya Piccolo Negoro Red Cloth, which I bought as a comfort pen due to a pretty nasty breakup. Not sure I'll ever sell that one - but I'm currently at my limit! So no more pens for me right now.

[Madeline]

That one sounds like a beauty! Perhaps enough comfort for a lifetime. Recognizing limits is the beginning of wisdom (something I still need to discover!)

[sidthecat]

Well, I’m not likely to ever buy my Grail Car, either.

[como]

I sold it

 

I'm sure in it's a better place now - I'm glad to have written a couple of sentences with it, but it's in a better place

 

Congratulations, more to that you don't have to worry about it any more. That's a great feeling!