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Which Extra Fine Nib Is Really Extra Fine?


76 replies to this topic

#21 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:58

But actually most folks here are talking about XXF nibs as "EF".

 

Sigh....EF is not for shading inks....not even fat western EF. 

F and above unless one has perfect paper and ink....and great eyes.

EF is not for Laid or Linen Effect papers either....Actually M or B works well with those papers. Western M or B, not the miss marked Japanese printing nibs.

 

My Pelikan 200 EF is at Western semi-vintage and vintage EF and narrow enough for me. My Geha 790 EF to many is unfortunately a maxi-semi-flex....so unless I work at being light handed, will scribble towards F. ...It too is vintage 1/2 a width narrower than modern Euro pens....outside the Aurora.  ( :lticaptd: Sadly the Aurora users are now shamed their once skinny nibs are considered  fat...so don't say anything here.....like Waterman users. (Before Japanese pens took over, there use to be flame wars with Waterman bragging their skinny nibs. :huh: ))

I lucked out and one of my regular flex 1745's was an EF and not the normal F....so I kept the EF (gave the F to my godchild)....but like the thicker 200 more. Somewhere I have a MB 320 EF,  a nail, so don't get any use.

 

I'm covered with EF.....just don't have a reason to buy a XXF nib...............then I'd have to buy a super wet ink for a spiderweb nib. :rolleyes:

Odd, none seem to care for dry Pelikan 4001 inks in their XXF nibs....that would make them a write mite thinner.................could be scratchy. :P


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 10 January 2019 - 12:59.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


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#22 LizEF

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 15:06

PS. If anyone owns a Lamy and wants a true EF nob for it . . . the 0.2mm Preppy nibs fit and work a treat. My Lamy Aion is loving this swapover B)

 

Tas, Tas, Tas.  Do you have to report this sort of thing?  I'm perfectly content with my Lamy Al-Start EF nib (which writes like a western F, if not wider), and I have no shortage of EF nibs.  But now I feel compelled to get a Preppy out of sheer curiosity!  I've never had a Preppy, let alone tried to stick one's nib on a Lamy.  I have no need for any of this, but now I'm feeling compelled! :gaah:  I also feel somewhat compelled to try the Preppy marker pen, again, just out of curiosity - I have no need for a marker.  And then there's the highlighter, and the whiteboard ink from Noodler's, and their rollerball nib (that I'm led to believe can be hacked into a preppy marker?).... :rolleyes:

 

Hopefully my curiosity will wear off before winter is over (not ordering until after winter, so I can get ink without worrying about it freezing).



#23 Tas

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 15:37

 

Tas, Tas, Tas.  Do you have to report this sort of thing?  I'm perfectly content with my Lamy Al-Start EF nib (which writes like a western F, if not wider), and I have no shortage of EF nibs.  But now I feel compelled to get a Preppy out of sheer curiosity!  I've never had a Preppy, let alone tried to stick one's nib on a Lamy.  I have no need for any of this, but now I'm feeling compelled! :gaah:  I also feel somewhat compelled to try the Preppy marker pen, again, just out of curiosity - I have no need for a marker.  And then there's the highlighter, and the whiteboard ink from Noodler's, and their rollerball nib (that I'm led to believe can be hacked into a preppy marker?).... :rolleyes:

 

Hopefully my curiosity will wear off before winter is over (not ordering until after winter, so I can get ink without worrying about it freezing).

 

We're meant to share our thoughts to help others right . . . ? :D 

It'll be something else to look forward to as the winter draws to a close.



#24 A Smug Dill

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:21

If anyone owns a Lamy and wants a true EF nob for it . . . the 0.2mm Preppy nibs fit and work a treat.


Ha! What a wicked idea. I haven't really found the Preppy 0.2 nibs to write all that finely, though, certainly not for all inks. I was just testing all my Platinum Plaisir pens – six out of eight are inked with Pilot Iroshizuku colours – to see which ones would 'benefit' from a nib swap from 0.3 to 0.2, and where a swap was warranted, the 0.2 nib doesn't write more finely than the 0.3 for a different ink colour.

Meanwhile, my Lamy Safari now inked with Diamine Graphite surprised me.


As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#25 Tas

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:33

Ha! What a wicked idea. I haven't really found the Preppy 0.2 nibs to write all that finely, though, certainly not for all inks. I was just testing all my Platinum Plaisir pens – six out of eight are inked with Pilot Iroshizuku colours – to see which ones would 'benefit' from a nib swap from 0.3 to 0.2, and where a swap was warranted, the 0.2 nib doesn't write more finely than the 0.3 for a different ink colour.

Meanwhile, my Lamy Safari now inked with Diamine Graphite surprised me.

Ooo, I really like your little "teardrop macro" shots :)

Strange though. My 0.2mm Preppy's ar hugely different to thier 0.3mm siblings. Hmm. Perhaps the Iroshizuku inks are a little too free flowing?  :unsure: 



#26 A Smug Dill

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:36

First every company has it's very own standards.


Yes, and every individual user can have his own idea or 'standard' or what is 'really Extra Fine', but it's up to that individual to specify and communicate the applicable measurements and/or test criteria, and understand that he neither controls the narrative nor obliges everyone else to share his terminology, framework or views, in an open discussion.
 

Western nibs are designed to be written in flowing cursive. Japanese nibs which are miss marked @ one width narrow are designed to print a tiny printed script.


No, they are not 'miss marked'. A Platinum nib that leaves a line measuring 0.28mm-0.34mm (with 50g pressure applied and the nib writing at 60°) would be correctly marked as Fine, because that is the company's published standard.
 

If you wish to make others use a magnifying glass, go Japanese.


Nothing really stops someone from writing with an x-height of 5mm using a 'Japanese EF' nib.
 

Tolerance..........


Um, ... yeah.


As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#27 LizEF

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 18:04

We're meant to share our thoughts to help others right . . . ? :D 

It'll be something else to look forward to as the winter draws to a close.

 

Maybe the folks on this forum should start a business - Enablers R Us. ;)



#28 A Smug Dill

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 22:02

My 0.2mm Preppy's ar hugely different to thier 0.3mm siblings. Hmm. Perhaps the Iroshizuku inks are a little too free flowing?  :unsure:

 
Maybe. All I can say is that, on the whole, the Platinum Preppy nibs aren't what I'd be using if I was looking to lay down a 'really' fine line:

fpn_1547157397__comparing_preppy_nibs.jp

On that page scan, the top EF is a steel EF nib on a Rotring 400. The bottom EF is a Pilot Penmanship EF nib. The MF is the 14K gold 1911 H-MF nib on my Sailor koshu-inden pen.

fpn_1547162427__comparing_pen_cup_ef_nib

Edited by A Smug Dill, 10 January 2019 - 23:21.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#29 Tas

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 23:25

 
Maybe. All I can say is that, on the whole, the Platinum Preppy nibs aren't what I'd be using if I was looking to lay down a 'really' fine line:

 

Interesting. :unsure:  Glad my 0.2mm aren't as fat as yours seem to be.
(Liking the look of that Rubinato Blu_Nero :wub: )



#30 A Smug Dill

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:41

I think this 'humble' steel EF nib on my Diplomat Aero, which I'm really enjoying using because it seems to be a little stubbish, probably qualifies as being EF (but then I usually write with a light hand, and the nib is not at a 60° angle):

fpn_1547174243__diplomat_aero_ef_nib_wri

The finer of the two nibs on my Sailor koshu-inden pens probably also makes the grade:

fpn_1547174460__black_sailor_koshu-inden
As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#31 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 13:54

No, they are not 'miss marked'. A Platinum nib that leaves a line measuring 0.28mm-0.34mm (with 50g pressure applied and the nib writing at 60°) would be correctly marked as Fine, because that is the company's published standard.

 

 

Still IMO miss marked............once before the mid '90's to early 2000's, Japanese pens were very, very nitch, Japan only, where they developed their nibs for a or two tiny printed scripts. Are the nibs marked in Japanese? No.

Why?

 

Only in European script as a false representation. No facts to back that up....

 

Late 19th century, early 20th century, in Japan; European/American was IN....fountain pens were IN.........they were European/American.

I've no idea when Japan started using a Latin based marking system....could have been from the start. Could have been after the war........I'd tend to think that. In I'd think in the '20-30's at the top of Japanese nationalism, they'd used Japanese characters to mark a nib............again, WAG.

If I really cared, I'd go to the Japanese section and ask that question. Maybe I should.

 

The Japanese are very good at thinking 50 years in advance....like their car industry.

I did have once a Sheaffer  pen made in the'70's in Japan, very narrow nib...but Sheaffer made for the US a narrow nib. Parker a fatter one. It was a nail, so I sold it.

 

Fountain pens were first made in Japan in 1912. By that time Waterman, Paul Wirt, Soennecken, Kaweco were old established firms. MB was just starting and of course was making nibs widths with in the size range of other more established firms. (One trained the customer back in the One Man, One Pen days to want their brand and width of nib

....Parker was wider, Sheaffer narrower....and Parker didn't make a Sheaffer width nib....or some customer could make a huge mistake and buy a Sheaffer.......and Parker would have to wait 7-10 years for the nib to wear out....constant daily use, to lure their customer back.)

 

Those nibs were designed for cursive script, the Japanese for a tiny printed script.

 

So a decade or so ago, long before the Com divided up to Japanese and other regions, there were flame wars here about the once thin/still are Waterman nibs, vs the fatter Pelikan nibs............no one was mentioning Japanese nibs being much skinner than Waterman. No Japanese fans.

 

In the meanwhile, many started out on the cheap and affordable Japanese pens.....long pre-china. Their eye was calibrated therefor Mark 2......with Japanese nib width as their standard. So all western nibs are too fat........an EF is an EF to them.....not the XXF it is when matched to Western.

I started long ago with Western pens, so I have a Mark 1 calibrated eyeball, and find Japanese miss marked one size narrow.

 

We had real wide nibs, like the Conway Stewart. Wide when compared to Sheaffer Parker nibs....and once Pelikan was thinner than all three in semi-vintage days of pre'98, and the thinner Waterman. Aurora didn't get much mention in the nib width Flame Wars either.......wasn't then as popular as later days.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#32 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 17:01

Peerless1 stated, """

Western markings on nibs have been used for over 100 years. Japanese characters were used somewhat during the latter years of World War II when the government dissuaded industry from using Western writing.

 

There are a number of pens from the 1920s in my collection and all have Western markings on nibs and clips."""

 

So I was  wrong about when............still say they are miss marked to size vs western.

But many keep saying Western is fat.........because they started with Japanese pens, I'll maintain they are too skinny for marked size, having started with US and later vintage German nibs.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#33 A Smug Dill

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:13

So I was  wrong about when............still say they are miss marked to size vs western.


It's your prerogative to maintain that opinion and say it. My point is that 'Western' is neither a global standard nor the central narrative in the world of fountain pens; European and American pen manufacturers do not even agree all between themselves. The nib width grade or 'size' is about as indicative of actual measurements to the global consumer as sizes marked on clothing labels.
As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#34 ethernautrix

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:42

It's your prerogative to maintain that opinion and say it. My point is that 'Western' is neither a global standard nor the central narrative in the world of fountain pens; European and American pen manufacturers do not even agree all between themselves. The nib width grade or 'size' is about as indicative of actual measurements to the global consumer as sizes marked on clothing labels.


Well said.

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#35 BaronWulfraed

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:47

I have five Platinum pens in which the nibs ARE marked in Japanese: two Carbon Desk pens (bought last fall), two "Modern Maki-e", and an older "Elegant" (base model for the Modern Maki-e). So it is not universal that all pens marked using "western" letter grades.



#36 Ron Z

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 23:26

Pilot Prera - the fine is already an extra fine - and if they make an extra fine, it would be a needle point.


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#37 A Smug Dill

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 23:43

Pilot Prera - the fine is already an extra fine - and if they make an extra fine, it would be a needle point.


If Pilot offered EF nibs as an option for the Prera line, it would be essentially the same nibs as on the Pilot Penmanship pens: http://www.fountainp...-pen/?p=4152132
As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#38 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 23:54

The western companies, of course never agreed on a universal standard among them selves. They weren't stupid.

Japanese are not using the exact same standards outside of being skinner than western. I've learned lately....this post or so, Platinum is often the thinnest. But they have overlap..............so did western pen makers.

Tolerance makes that impossible not to overlap....but the edges of tolerance was a good half a width or more different.

It was though easy to get the nib  width one wanted.....at the Corner Pens shop one tried a brand name pen, until a nib was found that suited the buyer. That was reported to the brand HQ.

 

Back in the day of One Man, One Pen..............Parker made a wider nib than Sheaffer for a good reason.........so the customer didn't get confused and buy a skinny nibbed Sheaffer.

 

Today where a 20 pen man is not the least bit unusual, the only 'confusion' I can see is XXF nibs marked as EF.

 

As mentioned a couple times I never see my B or M is too fat or skinny....just my needle nib is not narrow enough.

 

 

In the old days.....There were market surveys from the corner pen shop...what did the customers want in nib widths. And Parker customers wanted and were trained to want a fatter line.

....and the then skilled pen salesman (the good old days ;) ) knew how to push a nib. If the customer was a Parker man, then he was shown Parker pens, and a nice wet line was pushed. If he was a Sheaffer man, then the thin crisp line was pushed.

Same with other now dead companies.

 

The pen companies, did not want a universal standard. It pushed what it was selling, a fat line, a skinny line. A Parker nail, the nib flex assortment of Sheaffer.

As stated when one bought a new pen every 7-10 years confusing a Parker fan with a skinny nib could have the man make a huge mistake and buy a Sheaffer. :yikes:

 

Wahl-Eversharp had a flexible line in the '30's, semi-flex in the '40's....and went under, ending up a cheap pen ... too cheap for Parker's name.

Waterman had to run to France to survive....flexible nibs was passe in the States. Parker had to run to France also.........Sheaffer to Indonesia.

It is so sadly funny, Cross, a ball point maker in my youth.....bought up the failed Sheaffer and is now making them probably in China.

 

Ford and Chevy, was the same thing....I personally could never see a difference, but like fountain pens.....brand loyalty was needed. So one could count on a Parker to be wider than a Sheaffer.

 

 

This threads is about modern skinny nibs....which Japanese nib is skinniest oddly is not much played.. How very Odd, when skinny is all important.

.....just Western is too Fat...their EF is EF instead of being XXF.....miss marked Western nibs :lticaptd: ..............sounds so much like the old flame wars with Waterman for skinny nibs.

 

Some fine poster started to do a survey that was to show Parker and Sheaffer was not fat...close to Japanese....don't know what ever came of that.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 12 January 2019 - 00:06.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#39 Honeybadgers

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 06:50

Ha! What a wicked idea. I haven't really found the Preppy 0.2 nibs to write all that finely, though, certainly not for all inks. I was just testing all my Platinum Plaisir pens – six out of eight are inked with Pilot Iroshizuku colours – to see which ones would 'benefit' from a nib swap from 0.3 to 0.2, and where a swap was warranted, the 0.2 nib doesn't write more finely than the 0.3 for a different ink colour.

Meanwhile, my Lamy Safari now inked with Diamine Graphite surprised me.

 

I screwed up a preppy nib early in my career - I got bored a few months ago and just used some pliers to clip off the tipping at a hard 40-45 degree angle, sanded it on some 600-1800 sandpaper and then micro mesh, and wound up with a crisp italic oblique 1.1 preppy nib. I have it on a plaisir and it makes a bananas signature nib.

 

also "standard" is just a stupid term in general in this hobby. Lamy can't even standardize their own Z50 nib in EF and F, some EF's are fat M's.

 

even the "standard international" converter/cartridge ain't that. the diplomat traveler section is narrow enough that 90% of my SI converters fall right off.

 

I do think japan is the closest we have to a standard between EF and M. outside of japanese EF, F, and M, it just goes out the window. a coarse custom 74 is different from a coarse 3776, but pilot, platinum, and sailor's nibs are amazingly consistent. The preppy gets a bit of a pass because that pen is built down to such an incredible price the fact that they always write at all is a miracle.


Edited by Honeybadgers, 12 January 2019 - 06:53.

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#40 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:08

"""also "standard" is just a stupid term in general in this hobby. Lamy can't even standardize their own Z50 nib in EF and F, some EF's are fat M's."""

And that is done by a big blocky robot machine (4m by 8-10m). At least in the steel nibs. They were all made by the same machine. Upstairs was older machinery for the gold nibs.....different department. I won a newspaper sponsored factory tour some five years ago.

The nib slicer, is a very thin diamond dust coated rubber disk.

 

Well does depend on what one is using as a 'standard' M nib.....MB, Pelikan, (both much fatter than vintage/semi-vintage days) Lamy or Japanese.

Waterman was known for it's thin nibs. Don't know what happened to Parker nibs once it closed down it's US and British factories and set up inside the Waterman factory in France.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 




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