Wish List Attributes For Buying My First Pen

[zamani]

I'm looking to get my first pen! (forgive me if I'm in the wrong area) would love to get some perspective from you all. here is my wish list.

1.super fine lines (this is what i want most in a pen - maru dip nibs are my best reference)
2.smooth writing - I understand this is probably not going to happen due to my #1
3.lightweight and or on the smaller side
4.eye dropper - I didnt know about burping.. sounds like a nightmare.. i guess cartridge/converter is my new favorite option
5.dependable.. least amount of nonsense (skipping, trouble starting, drying out)
6.trying to keep the cost low.
7.very open to the possibility of modifying a nib or doing something unconventional or creative to achieve the things on this list.
8. something that can handle fun inks with sheen and crazy colors.. don't really care about black ink. (i guess this also is just a dream.. fine lines limit these options too..)

 

considering the pilot penmanship.. some reviews say its a very fine line.

 

thanks so much everyone!

Edited January 4, 2019 by zamani

[WirsPlm]

You want a lower-cost Pilot pen, they're about US$15-20, while you can get many pens for cheaper on eBay I do not recommend them as your first pen unless you have someone close to you who can help test and troubleshoot cheap Chinese and Indian pens, much like I do not recommend Linux to people who don't have a good IT person. All the cheaper Pilot pens can swap nibs between them, and can be completely disassembled for tinkering, and of the other high quality Japanese brands I don't believe Sailor pens can be disassembled or swapped around, I'm not sure about Platinum.

 

Eyedroppers are a not a good choice for a first fountain pen, I applaud your willingness to dive into the deep end but you should start with something less likely to spill ink unexpectedly. A converter or cartridge is much, much, much better for a first fountain pen.

 

If you want fine lines start with an F nib, for Japanese brands F nibs lay down a line about the same width as a .5 mm pencil, but if you want smoothness you have to know that nibs of that size are small enough to be more sensitive to paper texture and the paper you use will influence the feel a great deal, for greater smoothness start with a Pilot M, about .7 mm width. I'm not saying that the PIlot F nibs are rough, far from it, but at a certain point how smooth the tiny nib tip is can only do so much you know?

 

Pilot Metropolitan or MR, which can be had for $13-18 on Amazon if you're not aiming for a special color. These are sturdy metal pens with a wide range of colors and designs, some people dislike the barrel shape but many people consider them a favorite pen. They come in M or F size nibs.

Pilot 78G for a lighter, smoother pen, these used to be $10 but have recently been discontinued and replaced by the less sturdy, more expensive Pilot 78G+. They come in M, F and B italic nibs and can be converted to eyedropper if you really want to.

Pilot Prera, M and F nibs.

Pilot Plumix, a small italic stub that's quite nice to write with, I like to swap them onto my Metropolitans because the Plumix is odd looking to say the least.

Pilot Penmanship, an extremely small EF nib that is a very good EF nib but still much scratchier than the larger nibs just because of its size, I take the nib off these and put it into a Metropolitan or 78G.

Pilot Knight, Cocoon - these seem to be essentially the same as the Metropolitan? I have not tried them however.

 

For fun, dark, inexpensive ink colors in the US try Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses, or several of the other dark Noodler's colors. You can also order small ink samples from most fountain pen stores such as Andersons or Goulets to cheaply try different inks.

Edited January 4, 2019 by WirsPlm

[Kodiac136]

Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I think you're correct that the Moonman M2 would be a good fit for you. The nibs can be a little toothy sometimes (I smoothed mine a bit) but they are, all things considered, very decent pens.

 

As for inks, check out some nice purples. I've found that they are a "fun" and safe alternative to the normal old blues and blacks. Some of my personal favorites are Herbin Poussiere de Lune and Montblanc Lavender.

 

Also, welcome to the forum.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Kodiac136

[senzen]

I'm looking to get my first pen! (forgive me if I'm in the wrong area) would love to get some perspective from you all. here is my wish list.

 

1.the finest lines

 

Compared to what? Japanese extra / ultra fine are the finest.

2.smooth writing

 

We all want that... On cheap paper? Decent paper?

3.lightweight and or on the smaller side

4.eye dropper

5.dependable.. least amount of nonsense (skipping, trouble starting, drying out)

 

As far as I understand eyedroppers burp, hence taking reliability points?

6.cheap as possible.

 

How cheap is cheap? $1? $10? Does cheap mean low price, or poorly made, with copycat design and no engineering?

7.very open to the possibility of modifying a nib or doing something unconventional or creative to achieve the things on this list.

 

As opposed to working well straight from the box? Poorly performing nibs can be adjusted, not sure the common mortal could modify them.

8. something that can handle fun inks with sheen and crazy colors.. don't really care about black ink.

 

Probably requires a feed with good flow.

I really love the look of the clear moonman m2

 

I like the idea of a stub/italic nib for easy line variation but I assume I'd have to give up having very fine lines which I wouldn't want to do.

 

Yup, one or the other!

 

would also love to hear any cheap versatile ink recommendations that perhaps works well on not the best papers. (fun but darker colors.. don't care for black or blue really)

 

 

thanks so much everyone!

[WirsPlm]

I know Moonman is considered one of the better brands of Chinese pens but IMO there isn't a long enough track record to say they're a pen I'd like to hand to a new fp user yet, other people say differently so YMMV as with so many things in life.

[Kodiac136]

I know Moonman is considered one of the better brands of Chinese pens but IMO there isn't a long enough track record to say they're a pen I'd like to hand to a new fp user yet, other people say differently so YMMV as with so many things in life.

 

I would generally agree... I would say Pilots are an excellent place for a person to start. But the Moonman is a decently reliable eyedropper. I can't think of any comparable products that are both eyedroppers and cheap.

 

Zamani, what is it about eyedroppers that so attracts you? They can be temperamental at times. Without something to regulate the chamber, they are known for burping ink. This isn't a huge deal, but it does happen.

[zamani]

Ok definitely still learning haha (even after many hours of research) I had no idea about the burping.. I guess now I am going for some kind of piston cartridge. I wanted the eye dropper because it seemed the easiest and cleanest method.

 

I listed smoothness but I guess I could leave that off, I will take a scratchy pen if thats what it takes to get the finest lines.. In my searching I never found anything smaller than EF nibs.. where can you get ultra fine or something thats focused on super fine lines?

 

thanks for all the info.. im so grateful!

[WirsPlm]

Pilot EF nibs are close to a .3 mm pencil lead, you really don't need anything finer than that, that's as small as pen and pencil tips go pretty much across the board AFAIK, I'm really confused as to what kind of writing you're doing that you'd need smaller? Also, since you may not know this, nib sizes are not standardized and each brand has different nib widths, Japanese brands are often the smallest so that's why I suggested Pilot as a good place to start.

 

The cleanest, easiest, best filing method to start with is cartridge/converter, anything else is simply going to be more mess and more work, other filling methods can hold more ink but each one is prone to issues that can cause significantly more trouble, there's a reason so many pens are c/c now.

 

Also, I don't see anything about the paper and ink you're planning on using? You really, really need to figure those out too if you want to use EF nibs, smaller nibs are a lot of more sensitive to paper texture and ink flow just because of their size, there's no getting around that and trying to use an EF nib on cheaper paper or with a dry ink will probably make writing harder. Also, different papers will effect line width due to how the ink soaks into the page, writing with an EF nib on cheaper paper that encourages spreading will produce a wider line than an F nib on better paper. Some inks are more prone to spreading or feathering too, so if you're really aiming for extreme line thinness that's something to consider.

 

There's a reason most people start with F or M c/c pens, and frankly given that you didn't actually understand the issues with the filling system you were set on I don't think you've figured this stuff out as well as you think you have.

Edited January 4, 2019 by WirsPlm

[zamani]

I did know about the size difference in western vs japanese. I also understand the interactions with paper types. I have a couple basic dip pens that i got from a craft store that had only 2 options for nibs and ink. My favorite of the two by far is this maru sized tiny nib. yes its scratchy on almost everything i write on but the fine lines are amazing. i like writing small.

 

are there any economical options to getting a UEF or XXF pens besides the platinum 3776 century for $150 ?

[goodpens]

Moonman M2: excellent choice except for eyedroppering/burping risk

 

TWSBI Eco xf nib: excellent choice, except slightly larger and more expensive

[LizEF]

I tend to agree that Pilot is probably the closest match to what you want. You can get a fine or extra-fine Kakuno for very cheap - the CON-70 converter (which will hold the max ink of any Pilot converter) will cost about as much as the pen. Any of the other low-end Pilots use the same nibs, but not all will take the CON-70 (just FYI, not necessarily negative, some don't like the CON-70), and not all have EF as an option.

 

Further, smoothness and super-fine are somewhat contradictory (though a well-tuned EF nib with a light hand needn't feel rough, let alone scratchy - no nib with properly aligned tines should feel scratchy). Further, cheap paper makes the nib feel rougher than it is - especially with EF nibs - think of a small wheel (like roller skates) running over a pitted road versus a car tire on the same road - it will feel smoother to the car tire.

 

Finally, sheen can be hard to see in an EF (especially Japanese EF, let alone UEF) nib. It's not impossible, but unless the ink is a super-sheener, it will be hard. I cannot think of a non-blue ink that I've seen sheen in an EF nib (I use them almost exclusively). On top of that, with an EF nib, one of two things may be true:

• It's dry, so the ink looks paler from it
• It's wet, and the line is so fine that a dark ink looks basically black

Please note that I'm not trying to argue you out of your goals - not at all - I love EF nibs. Rather I'm sharing what I know, pointing out some contradictions so that you can make an educated choice that will get you as close to your goals as possible. Were I you, I would go for a Pilot Kakuno in EF with a CON-40 converter - it's the cheapest way to get to a Japanese EF (that I know of, other than perhaps an EF Platinum Preppy) - and see whether it suits my needs, or whether I need something finer.

 

For inks that are not blue, not black, and on the darker side, I might try samples of:

• Diamine Classic Green
• Diamine Salamander
• Sailor Tokiwa-Matsu
• Robert Oster Astorquiza Rot
• Sailor Yama Dori (though some people see this as blue)
• Nearly any darkish brown - Robert Oster Aussie Brown or Visconti Sepia would look nice (dark brown, but not black from an EF)

I left off orange and pink/magenta, cuz they're not dark (in my mind).

[WirsPlm]

Yes, we all want you to find the pen that makes writing fun for you, we're not trying to rain on your parade just trying to point out some things it seems like you may not know but could be important factors in your decision.

[LizEF]

are there any economical options to getting a UEF or XXF pens besides the platinum 3776 century for $150 ?

 

I'm not certain, but I think the Platinum desk pen might come in a UEF nib - worth searching, it would be another cheap way to get a very fine line (even if you just got an EF nib on it).

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm looking to get my first pen! (forgive me if I'm in the wrong area) would love to get some perspective from you all. here is my wish list.

 

1.the finest lines

2.smooth writing...................................XXF western/EF Japanese is not going to be all that smooth.

Ink and paper will make up to a width difference.......Suggest an EF European or a F Japanese. If you print go Japanese, the nib is designed for a tiny printed script. Western nibs are designed for cursive.

 

3.lightweight and or on the smaller side.....I don't know Japanese pens. A couple have been recommended that match that..

 

4.eye dropper..

Why.???,Eyedroppers died before 1912 when Sheaffer came in with the lever pen...For good reasons, time to load, mess, burping....then and now. Lever is still the fastest loading....but slowest to clean...........Let me take you aside....and tell you about Esterbrook pens..... :puddle:beautiful vintage, sturdy great light pens........of course one needs 6 or 8. A decade ago all 'noobies' were told to buy one, back when they were $15...now thirty....you can swap nibs........comes in standard sized DJ, thinner SJ, and smaller LJ.... Double Jewel, slim, and lady. Do go to the Esterbrook subforum.....and save up $30.

 

 

Eyedroppers have problems with burping....long cartridges which can be re-filled with a needle syringe or a converter makes much more sense. Buying just cartridges is way too expensive, but one does need a few to refill. Get some short international ones too, so you can change inks on whim....and that whim will happen and often.

Swish out the cartridge with your needle syringe.............get a rubber baby bulb syringe to clean out the C/C pen. Takes a whole minute.

Would be cleaning out an eyedropper takes lots longer. Keep remembering eyedroppers have a reputation of burping.

Over the last decade since I returned to fountain pens....I've read more ...problems, than oh...holds so, so much ink..............Whoppie.

I do like the patterns of the big ebonite Indian pens.....but would only buy a cartridge/Converter one.........There are two versions of the international standard cartridge - 'short' 38mm cartridges and 'long' 73mm cartridges.

Perhaps you can find the old 160ml Sheaffer cartridge...which holds as much ink as a MB149!!!!

 

5.dependable.. least amount of nonsense (skipping, trouble starting, drying out)...We are talking cheap pens...right.

6.cheap as possible.....those Japanese pens.....or good metal Chinese ones. ...and real dirt cheap Chinese is not the way to go.

7.very open to the possibility of modifying a nib or doing something unconventional or creative to achieve the things on this list.????????????????????????????? BS.....buy another cheap pen with a wider nib........in going super skinny you have reached a limit to one side.

You can buy Knox nibs and put in fatter nibs............but why screw with it when you can buy Japanese economical pens with wider nibs..........Japanese B = Western M. Get the whole pen for some $15-20 or buy a nib for $7-8, and fiddle around.....& you have a second pen to fill up with different ink.

Trying to cheap out means, you are still a one pen man, and hopefully changing out the nib all the time don't wear the mouth of the section so much your feed becomes loose. Buy a second pen with a wider nib....that way you never run out of ink....having two pens in your shirt pocket..........................do not sit on your pen....they were not made for that...............if you want to sit on a fountain pen, buy ones that can be used as spare axles for your skateboard.

 

(Remember the Estie.....and it's screw out nibs....much more expensive now than a decade ago....but with inflation ,,,, actually same o, sameo.

 

8. something that can handle fun inks with sheen and crazy colors.. don't really care about black ink.....

You need a B in Japanese (western M)...for Shading....think wider nibs do Sheen better too....(BUT you want XXF/EF Japanese) So you are going to need two....make that three of those Japanese pens. The XXF/EF, a B/M western and something in the middle...sooner or later. A M or western F is lots smoother than a XXF needle.

 

I like western M (Japanese B....for shading....those crazy two toned colors.

 

.......and good to better paper.....

Writing is 1/3 nib width/flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink and in that order.

 

 

 

would also love to hear any cheap versatile ink recommendations that perhaps works well on not the best papers. (fun but darker colors.. don't care for black or blue really)............

.......It appears to me, that most 'noobie's want a dark saturated ink, similar to their gel or hybrid ball points. Vivid, boring supersaturated inks.

Noodlers makes a lot of them. & some shading inks...............there can be problems....is cheap.

Pelikan 4001 ink shades.............Herbin ink shades. Kaweco is cheap. R&K is E8.50....

I understand Japanese ink is cheap.....$12 in the states. Many are wet and well liked for their colors.

Even $12 is cheap...and a BIG 62ml bottle of 4001 Pelikan be had for that. I pay E4.25/$5.15 for a 30ml bottle.

A bottle of ink lasts a long time....especially when one has three or four bottles of different colors.

 

Some folks do like Parker Quink ink..............could be it's cheap. I don't care for it. I'd be more interested in Sheaffer ink....but it's hard for find in Germany.

 

 

MB inks used to be only somewhat expensive with 60ml for E12/13...Then a couple of years ago they went to E15 and now jumped out of my range at E19.

Irish Green can be matched by R&K Verdura exactly, for@ E8.00. I made a mistake and luckily ordered two bottles of Verdura...........a great green-green shading ink.

 

I can remember think why the hell would anyone use a green ink....then lucked into a marked down bottle of the now discontinued Pelikan 40001 Brilliant Green..........within that year bought some 14 green-greenish inks....now have 17-18 greenish inks.

 

90g copy paper costs twice as much as common 80 g copy paper. Get the laser paper. It will shade with shading inks. Common cheap copy paper will not shade even with shading inks..............never use any Ink Jet paper for fountain pens....it is designed to absorb ink super fast so feathers and bleeds like hell.

 

A ream of 90g costs here E6.00 vs E3.00 or so for 80g. I can scribble for well over a year with 500 sheets of good paper.....if I don't feed a printer.

 

You can get a free template and print lines on your paper....narrow lines for narrow nibs, middle wide lines for M nibs and wide lines for B nibs.....

 

Good to better paper costs two mechanically delivered cans of Coke or cups of Starbucks coffee more than normal paper..

 

I suggest buying some good to better paper with every three bottles of ink.... Go to Target or Home Officer or just look up Southworth papers...expensive but you are not using them all the time....look for 25% cotton 24 pounds...why not ivory, or Almond or some fancy color....will make the ink dance to a different tune.

Coke a Cola is bad for your liver,...makes one fat, so is coffee bought out in the wild....buying hamburgers is very bad for your ink or paper supply...............

 

Do as I tell ya, not as I did. I bought a slew of pens, a boat load of inks....before finally buying good paper.

Ink dances on good paper..............it don't dance on poor paper.

The sad news; there is no perfect pen, no perfect nib, no perfect ink nor no perfect paper. There is however lucky perfect accidents ...and Remember too Write them down..... n at least two places.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[Kodiac136]

Bo Bo makes a good point on Esterbrooks. Excellent pens. Easily found nowadays in the $35 range.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I'd go for the TWSBI Eco for a starting pen. Or just jump straight to something like Platinum 3776 or Pilot Custom 74... though it may be a little more expensive ($70 range), they are pens that could last you a lifetime.

[Bo Bo Olson]

What ever you do, do not join the Pen of the Week in the Mail Club.

If you buy a pen every quarter year you have a better chance of getting a keeper.

 

No BS, there can be an instant gratification greed factor .... so many pretty pens....now....now. Gee half of them I don't even use any more.

 

The Golden Rule of Fountain Pens is to take your time......the more time you take the better. The more research one can do, to what the nib does?...........does it have balance?...........is it so well made it will last 70 years or another 70 years?

 

Do rest a fountain pen behind the big index knuckle at 45 degrees right after the big knuckle, at 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb or if the pen is long or heavy rest it at 35 degrees in the pit of the web of the thumb.

Don't hold it like a ball point before the big index knuckle....that tends to make little grand canyons in the paper....is part of the reason why pens write scratchy.

[zamani]

Bo Bo makes a good point on Esterbrooks. Excellent pens. Easily found nowadays in the $35 range.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I'd go for the TWSBI Eco for a starting pen. Or just jump straight to something like Platinum 3776 or Pilot Custom 74... though it may be a little more expensive ($70 range), they are pens that could last you a lifetime.

 

Where do I find prices that low?

[sirgilbert357]

 

Where do I find prices that low?

 

 

zamani,

 

PM me your address, I'll send you a Pilot 78g in medium nib. This particular one is black with the gold plated nib. I'll throw in a cartridge of Pilot blue black ink to get you started. If you like it, you can order a Pilot converter for it (probably about 5-8 bucks online).

 

ETA: I'm assuming you're in the CONUS.

Edited January 4, 2019 by sirgilbert357

[Kodiac136]

 

Where do I find prices that low?

 

I'm not sure what the rules are about linking merchants here.

I will say that I've purchased one from MidnightPens on etsy (yes, I know, weird places for a pen shop) and it was stellar.

He restores pens and sells them for very fair prices. Quick shipping time. Personalized note. All around, a lovely experience. Looks like he has one for 40 available right now.

You could also check the dreaded evil bay (many a dollar have been wasted on ebay). There may also be some available on the classifieds here.

If you want an Esterbrook, take a moment to familiarize yourself with how Esterbrook named their nibs. As Bo previously stated, their nibs units are easily exchanged and they can be found in all ranges of sizes and characteristics.

 

Perhaps someone else knows some reliable sellers?

[pajaro]

What ever you do, do not join the Pen of the Week in the Mail Club.

If you buy a pen every quarter year you have a better chance of getting a keeper.

 

No BS, there can be an instant gratification greed factor .... so many pretty pens....now....now. Gee half of them I don't even use any more.

 

The Golden Rule of Fountain Pens is to take your time......the more time you take the better. The more research one can do, to what the nib does?...........does it have balance?...........is it so well made it will last 70 years or another 70 years?

 

Do rest a fountain pen behind the big index knuckle at 45 degrees right after the big knuckle, at 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb or if the pen is long or heavy rest it at 35 degrees in the pit of the web of the thumb.

Don't hold it like a ball point before the big index knuckle....that tends to make little grand canyons in the paper....is part of the reason why pens write scratchy.

 

Very, very true. I think, though, that we all have to make our own mistakes. I have lots of pens I avoid using.