Why Waterman Bchr?

[surprise123]

I've been around the fountain pen community for a little bit, and the prices of hard rubber Waterman pens keep on perplexing me. I once saw a Waterman #20 barrel go for $700+. What's the deal with these pens? They don't look any different from other brands, they don't have notoriously hard-to-restore filling systems, and they aren't very durable and are prone to oxidizing. So why are they so darn expensive? Is it the nib? Waterman #2 nibs regularly go for $30-$40, so it couldn't be that either. Pens like the TWSBI Eco have been successfully retrofitted (including mine, for a short period of time) with these nibs. Is it just mass flex hysteria or the brand name?

 

I can understand mottled hard rubber going for high prices (red mottled hard rubber is beautiful) but many pens I've seen have gone brown with age, but they sell higher than pens like Parker 51's and Pelikans!

[praxim]

I can understand mottled hard rubber going for high prices (red mottled hard rubber is beautiful) but many pens I've seen have gone brown with age, but they sell higher than pens like Parker 51's and Pelikans!

 

The Watermans are usually quite a bit older than Pelikans or Parkers from the 51. Being hard rubber, they are usually from the 1930s and much earlier. They also write very nicely. I am a little surprised the nibs are so cheap. I prize my several vintage Watermans, 1920s-1930s.

Edited December 5, 2018 by praxim

[woleizihan]

You mean Waterman #20? First, it doesn't use a #2 nib, it uses a huge #10 nib. So comparing the price with the price of a #2 nib makes little sense. If you can find a #10 nib in the wild, I bet it will cost you a fortune. Also, #20 is a huge pen and especially in good condition, very rare.

[Honeybadgers]

Oversized vintage pens go up in value almost exponentially. I just restored a vintage sheaffer balance oversize for a gentleman, replaced the lever, and shined it up. it's got an ENORMOUS nib, the pen is about the size of a MB 149, the nib is about a modern #8. The nib isn't flexible but the pen is in great shape, and I'd say it's worth 4-8 times as much as a standard balance with a rigid nib.

 

Thing is a stunning writer too. If the owner wasn't so in love with it, I'd beg him to sell it to me (as it is, he's letting me buy a vac fill mid sized doric (not the maxi or junior, but the most desirable model) for $200 in return for restoring his pens. The pen with the nib straightened and new diaphragms is probably worth $600-1200)

[surprise123]

You mean Waterman #20? First, it doesn't use a #2 nib, it uses a huge #10 nib. So comparing the price with the price of a #2 nib makes little sense. If you can find a #10 nib in the wild, I bet it will cost you a fortune. Also, #20 is a huge pen and especially in good condition, very rare.

 

It was just an example. I know that the #10 nib is extremely rare, but just a barrel, without the cap or nib? I would have thought it would be cheaper.

[surprise123]

Oversized vintage pens go up in value almost exponentially. I just restored a vintage sheaffer balance oversize for a gentleman, replaced the lever, and shined it up. it's got an ENORMOUS nib, the pen is about the size of a MB 149, the nib is about a modern #8. The nib isn't flexible but the pen is in great shape, and I'd say it's worth 4-8 times as much as a standard balance with a rigid nib.

 

Thing is a stunning writer too. If the owner wasn't so in love with it, I'd beg him to sell it to me (as it is, he's letting me buy a vac fill mid sized doric (not the maxi or junior, but the most desirable model) for $200 in return for restoring his pens. The pen with the nib straightened and new diaphragms is probably worth $600-1200)

Oversized pens are going to be expensive. I know that. But pens like the Waterman #12 are small, yet they command prices north of $150.

 

I love the Sheaffer Balance OS. I got to handle one from a collector at the DCPSS, and I loved it. Alas, some of us don't have that kind of money.

 

A mid-sized Doric for $200? You got an absolute steal! I've never touched one before.

Edited December 6, 2018 by surprise123

[mitto]

'...and they arent that durable'. You say that? Repent, repent.

[sidthecat]

Durable? They’ve been around for the best part of a century and they’ve held up better than I have.

[mitto]

Almost 100 years old Waterman 52s.

 

 

 

And still not durable?

[ParkerDuofold]

'...and they arent that durable'. You say that? Repent, repent.

 

Durable? Theyve been around for the best part of a century and theyve held up better than I have.

Hi Mitto, Sid, et al,

 

I understand what Surprise means... Ebonite can be quite brittle if it hadn't been stored in ideal conditions...

 

My very first Duofold... a 1923 Junior with the large logo and Christmas tree feed...

 

http://i.imgur.com/wIkaghe.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/3moEv5A.jpg

 

A fall from my desk onto a thick rug caused the threaded nipple that secures the blind cap in place, to break clean off... resulting in the blind cap dangling off the filler button... and a useless pen.

 

That would never happen with an L2K...

 

...or even a P51.

 

 

- Anthony

 

P.S.: Btw, nice looking Watermans, Mitto.

[ParkerDuofold]

The accomplice...

 

http://i.imgur.com/RrwVaOS.jpg

 

 

- A.C.

[bass1193]

The accomplice...

What a cute pen murderer!

[mitto]

Get a new replacement barrel for your pen.

Edited December 8, 2018 by mitto

[kazoolaw]

It was just an example. I know that the #10 nib is extremely rare, but just a barrel, without the cap or nib? I would have thought it would be cheaper.

 

It's not the material, it's the scarcity.

 

OS vintage pens are rare. If memory serves, the Waterman 20 was the largest, followed by the 58. You feeling is on the mark if you compare BHR to RHR for the same OS parts the red far exceeds the black.

 

gary

[ParkerDuofold]

What a cute pen murderer!

 

Hi Bass,

 

Yes, she is... that's probably what's saved her life on a couple of occasions... ...that, plus she's as sweet as she is cute.

 

That's her at my fountain pen workbench... waiting for the next project to "help" me with.

 

- Anthony

 

 

Get a new replacement barrel for your pen.

Hi Mitto,

 

Yes, I know,... but that's not the point.

 

 

- Anthony

[Lam1]

 

It was just an example. I know that the #10 nib is extremely rare, but just a barrel, without the cap or nib? I would have thought it would be cheaper.

 

I understand it is an example, but that one is particularly rare.

I have seen the #20 sell for $2,000 or (way) more. If you have the other parts (particularly if you found it relatively cheap in the wild), wouldn't you pay $700 for a good barrel? I would (if I had the money).

So, rarity explains this one.

 

But Waterman's usually have wonderful nibs, and I believe that is the other reason they are so expensive. I have many vintage pens in my collection, but they are mostly just for viewing pleasure since the nibs are not to my taste. The only vintage pens I actually use are Waterman's, Pelikans and English Duofolds, because of their wonderful nibs. That's worth a premium for me.

 

But, yes, the durable part...Like ParkerDuofold, I totally understand what you mean. Sure, they have been around for a while, but I vowed never to attempt repair hard rubber pens again.

[FarmBoy]

Get a new replacement barrel for your pen.

Replacing the nipple is a relatively easy repair. The pen was made from a tube that was plugged then threaded. The repair would be correct and essentially undetectable.

 

FB

[surprise123]

I would loathe to see yet another hard rubber pen crumble in my fingers.

 

However, Mitto, surviving examples like your stunning 52's are great, and easy to resac. But that, more often than not, is the exception. My experiences with ebonite have been unpleasant, ranging from oxidation all the way to straight up crumbling when I remove the section.

 

They are mostly always great nibs, as long as it doesn't look like it was used on a dart board. Waterman nibs can be excellent. I tried out a Pink nib at the DCPSS and I have never felt anything like it, from any other brand.

 

Mitto, I repent. Durable wasn't the right word. Yes, some have survived for a century, but I wouldn't be as keen to throw a Waterman 52 in the pencil pouch as confidently as I do with the franken Duofold I carry. Both are great pens, but I don't trust the Waterman as much as the Duofold.

[surprise123]

 

But, yes, the durable part...Like ParkerDuofold, I totally understand what you mean. Sure, they have been around for a while, but I vowed never to attempt repair hard rubber pens again.

I agree. They are scary to restore. Not only do you have to worry about cracking, but improper restoration often leads to hairline cracks, which leads to to more cracking. Epoxy is only ever a temporary solutuon.

[praxim]

I have over 30 hard rubber pens plus a couple of barrels. I learned my first sac, plunger and piston restorations on them while breaking none. None of them has "crumbled" in any respect. Nor would I treat any vintage pen, HR, celluloid or plastic, as I might a modern plastic frankenpen. This is a matter of value as much as fragility. Most modern pens I own are not to be treated in a cavalier fashion either.

 

It is odd that on the one hand surprise123 argues rarity and supposed fragility allied with great nibs, and then wonders why they are considered valuable? If I were the happy owner of a Bugatti Type 43 I think I would treat it carefully yet in modern terms it is not even a good car, whereas vintage pens are among the best writers.