Question Regarding A 1950S 149

[kandarp]

Hi FPN,

 

I recently received a celluloid 149 in the mail. This pen has all the correct features (Celluloid body, silver rings cap, telescoping piston) and comes with an "ebonite feed with grooves face & shank"

 

Upon unboxing it, I noticed the following issues with it

1. The ink window is not flat / cylindrical. It's subtle but the ink window is a concave cylinder. - Is that normal?
2. The pen is shorter than my other 1950s 149 (with a ski-slope feed), The barrel is ~4mm shorter than my other 1950s 149. - Did Montblanc make celluloid 149s in multiple lengths?
3. I can feel a 'seam'/joint between the bottom of the ink window and the barrel - Is that normal?

Does anyone else have a celluloid 149 with similar issues? I'm suspecting that this has been crudely restored.

 

Thanks

 

Edited to add pictures

 

If you look closely, there is some "pitting" on the ink window and it really feels like a different material too. My other celluloid pens don't have this weird texture or this curvature.

Another one

 

And the size comparison without the caps. My 149 is on the left and this new one is on the right. The section and piston cone around almost exactly the same length. The barrel is significantly shorter on the new one

Edited December 1, 2018 by Fountainpencrazy

[Michael R.]

(1) no

 

(2) according to some reliable source they were handmade on a lathe so subtle differences are possible. But 4 mm seems a lot. Is this with the cap on or body only? Maybe the caps screw on to different extends...

 

(3) yes this is normal. Black coating on the clear barrel was done on the outside on those pens resulting in a minimal seam.

Care to share a picture?

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[kandarp]

Michael,

 

I'll try taking a close up picture and share. The difference in length is with the cap off, the piston cone and grip section of the two pens are approximately the same length. The 4mm difference is purely due to the barrel.

 

Thanks for your response. I'm going to try and take better pictures.

 

(1) no

 

(2) according to some reliable source they were handmade on a lathe so subtle differences are possible. But 4 mm seems a lot. Is this with the cap on or body only? Maybe the caps screw on to different extends...

 

(3) yes this is normal. Black coating on the clear barrel was done on the outside on those pens resulting in a minimal seam.

Care to share a picture?

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[kandarp]

Here are some pictures.

 

If you look closely, there is some "pitting" on the ink window and it really feels like a different material too. My other celluloid pens don't have this weird texture or this curvature.

Another one

 

And the size comparison without the caps. My 149 is on the left and this new one is on the right. The section and piston cone around almost exactly the same length. The barrel is significantly shorter on the new one

[Michael R.]

Ah, ok.

 

The threaded area looks shorter as well.

 

Does it have a striped ink window?

 

To be honest it looks like sme kind of repair job in the ink window area.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[kandarp]

The threaded area looks shorter as well.

 

You are correct. The threaded area is shorter too!

 

Does it have a striped ink window?

 

It does, but it's very faint. Here is a picture of me holding it up to light. Also, as I twisting the piston for this picture, I realized that the cork does not travel into the ink window at all. There is significant resistance once it starts moving into the ink window. So I suspect that the inner diameter of the ink window is narrower than the rest of the body.

 

To be honest it looks like sme kind of repair job in the ink window area.

 

That's what I'm suspecting too, also the texture of the ink window is really off with lots of pitting. Looks like work was done in that region. The condition of the pen does not bother me (even thought it was described to be in great shape), what I find really annoying is the length and that weird concave section.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Fountainpencrazy

[zaddick]

I agree with Michaels assessments. My guess is there was a crack at the end of the original threads and the repair person trimmed them. Perhaps the warping in the window came from heat misapplied?

[kandarp]

Thanks for your comments. The pen was described to be in 'splendid' shape with the seller claiming that I'll be unable to 'find one in such good shape'. It's got other cosmetic issues, but the warping of the ink window and the length are deal breakers.

 

I feel much better about my initial assessment based on what I'm reading here. However, things took an interesting turn once I contacted the seller on eBay. The seller appears to have gone off the deep end, accusing me of fraud and claiming that I just ordered this pen so that I could scam him by returning the pen with replaced parts!

 

Oh well, I'll keep you all posted. Hopefully eBay / PayPal / my Credit Card company have my back!

Edited December 2, 2018 by Fountainpencrazy

[CS388]

That's a nasty response from the seller. Especially when there are obviously some issues in the ink window/threads area.

I agree with previous posters, looks like some work has been done in that region?

 

Was this an Ebay purchase? If so, you should be well covered. Despite all our concerns with Ebay, they are good at protecting the buyer, if the item was not accurately described - which this pen was not, if it was described as being in 'splendid' shape. It's possible that the seller was unaware of any previous repair work, so may not have been deliberately dishonest - but, it seems that work has been done, so even if it was accidental misdescription, the law is still on your side.

 

Good luck.

[kandarp]

Thanks for your response. It makes me feel much better.

 

Yes, it's an eBay purchase. He appears to be a decent seller with lots of Montblanc pens for sale. Has some great looking vintage ones too. Everything looked great in the pictures.

 

I just messaged him to let him know about the extreme resistance in the piston too. Not looking forward to his response.

 

I'm quite concerned that the seller may try to scam me once I return the pen by claiming that I sent something else or switched components.

 

I'm probably going to take a video of me packaging this pen and handing it over to the postal service to ensure this guy does not try to scam me.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Fountainpencrazy

[siamackz]

The pitting looks like a repair job using a solvent like MEK or acetone, but gone wrong. This would make sense if the repairer cut the ink window and barrel shorter to repair a crack. All the best with the return! Been there, done that, and it happens with even some credible sellers at times - maybe unknowingly. But it happens especially when dealing with high end pens like this in my experience. Ive started to think that pen shows are the place to buy expensive pens so that you can examine them first. I just bought a 139 that needs to be returned because it has a crack that was repaired on - I only caught it under serious lighting and magnification a few weeks after it came to me. Sad day.

[meiers]

I have learned a lot reading his thread. Thanks.

[kandarp]

Thanks for such detailed and informative response. The nib is quite nice and the flow is exceptional.

 

Will keep everyone posted. The seller has been doing everything possible to delay the process. I've been waiting for a label for 4 days now...

 

The pitting looks like a repair job using a solvent like MEK or acetone, but gone wrong. This would make sense if the repairer cut the ink window and barrel shorter to repair a crack. All the best with the return! Been there, done that, and it happens with even some credible sellers at times - maybe unknowingly. But it happens especially when dealing with high end pens like this in my experience. Ive started to think that pen shows are the place to buy expensive pens so that you can examine them first. I just bought a 139 that needs to be returned because it has a crack that was repaired on - I only caught it under serious lighting and magnification a few weeks after it came to me. Sad day.

[dascott]

This is a great education for all of us buying pens online. Sorry you had to experience it though. Hope ebay pull through.

[jmnav]

Thanks for your comments. The pen was described to be in 'splendid' shape with the seller claiming that I'll be unable to 'find one in such good shape'. It's got other cosmetic issues, but the warping of the ink window and the length are deal breakers.

 

I feel much better about my initial assessment based on what I'm reading here. However, things took an interesting turn once I contacted the seller on eBay. The seller appears to have gone off the deep end, accusing me of fraud and claiming that I just ordered this pen so that I could scam him by returning the pen with replaced parts!

 

Oh well, I'll keep you all posted. Hopefully eBay / PayPal / my Credit Card company have my back!

 

It certainly looks a repairment. Most of the lenght shorting seems to come from the shorter thread which, associated to the ink window deformation, strongly points to a repair. It won't go better: it is a tension point, both when you operate the piston and just by screwing/unscrewing the cap; odds are it will break again unless you bought it as a collection item you don't plan to use.

 

I'd say also say this kind of defense is typical of guilty people: looking ab-so-lute-ly astound that you even thought of something bad from their side; the more they cry the more sure you can be they knew there was a problem. In this case it even seems that you were framed, as it seems nobody holding that pen in his hand can't avoid but seeing the problem of the barrel, still he said it was "perfect". This or a Chewbacca defense. Then, as @siamackz says, it hasn't to be the case that the seller is an openly fraudster: most of their items may be legit; he's just the kind of person that, knowing they got a false bank note, will try to pass it away to somebody else instead of burning it.

 

Unluckily I've had a very recent experience like this, not at e-bay, but in the classifieds section of this very site. Act quickly -you won't find help from the vendor's side. In my case, it took me too long to notice the problem, and now I own a fountain pen broken in two pieces and no recourse.

Edited December 9, 2018 by jmnav

[kandarp]

Quick update for everyone who was interested. The seller did responded to my case on the very last day before eBay could intervene. He accepted my return and agreed that he out of line and I'm not trying to scam them.

 

However, He has not issued a return label and requested that I significantly undervalue the item for customs. Without checking with me, he has also sent me some money via PayPal to cover the return. There are two problems with this setup.

1. The address on the case is different (typo in the country name) than the address they want me to return this item to.
2. If I undervalue this for customs then I'm breaking the laws in the US and will not be able to insure this package for it's full value.

I've pointed out both these issues to the seller and they have not corrected them. Contacted eBay, they have told me to not ship this item without a label generated via eBays return process as even a minor discrepancy in the return address will cause me to lose buyer protection. They have also instructed me to only respond to the seller via the case and not via messages or email.

 

eBay and has repeatedly tried to contact the seller for a week now without any response from their end.

 

Another 2 days to go before I can escalate the case again and hopefully force eBay to issue a return label.

 

I know I'll get my money back, it's just a pain having the seller drag this out...

[siamackz]

 

Act quickly -you won't find help from the vendor's side. In my case, it took me too long to notice the problem, and now I own a fountain pen broken in two pieces and no recourse.

This is very good advice. I learned this the hard way. When I receive a pen I usually go through with a loupe quick. But its easy to miss stuff unless you use really bright light. I missed cracks on two pens - one was a 139!! From now on, when I receive a pen I will immediately take a powerful loupe and put the pen under very strong light and take a close look over. Gotta be super careful with vintage pens, especially higher end ones.

[kandarp]

Thanks. That really is great advice. For a high value item, I setup my phone on a tripod and record the entire process of unboxing as well as inspecting the pen in great detail in one shot while ensuring the package or the item never leave the frame.

 

I did it for this pen too, however, did not notice the curvature or length till later that night when I was trying to compare it with my other 149 from the same era.

 

 

This is very good advice. I learned this the hard way. When I receive a pen I usually go through with a loupe quick. But its easy to miss stuff unless you use really bright light. I missed cracks on two pens - one was a 139!! From now on, when I receive a pen I will immediately take a powerful loupe and put the pen under very strong light and take a close look over. Gotta be super careful with vintage pens, especially higher end ones.

 

 

Act quickly -you won't find help from the vendor's side. In my case, it took me too long to notice the problem, and now I own a fountain pen broken in two pieces and no recourse.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Fountainpencrazy

[jmnav]

Quick update for everyone who was interested. The seller did responded to my case on the very last day before eBay could intervene. He accepted my return and agreed that he out of line and I'm not trying to scam them.

 

However, He has not issued a return label and requested that I significantly undervalue the item for customs. Without checking with me, he has also sent me some money via PayPal to cover the return.

 

It really doesn't matter if the seller is acting knowingly or not as all that matters is what happens from your side. For all practical purposes, the seller is acting as if, by tightening the rope on his side, he's waiting for a false step on your side, so don't fall in the trap. Make sure you follow eBay's instructions to the t and make sure they are aware of any news you get so they have a clear track record.

[kandarp]

Good point. This is exactly what eBay told me too. The seller has been ignoring ebay's messages to provide a label and just wants to deal with me directly.

 

It's just frustrating that I've spent two weeks chasing this down and the end is not yet in sight. Even if he sends a label tomorrow, it will take a few weeks for him to receive the item (barring any customs issues) and issue my refund.

 

It would be a lot less frustrating if I could ink this pen and keep it in my rotation while I waited...

 

 

It really doesn't matter if the seller is acting knowingly or not as all that matters is what happens from your side. For all practical purposes, the seller is acting as if, by tightening the rope on his side, he's waiting for a false step on your side, so don't fall in the trap. Make sure you follow eBay's instructions to the t and make sure they are aware of any news you get so they have a clear track record.