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Turned-Up Tips Vs. Oval/round/ball/dome Points - Dip Pen Edition

nibs tips oval point turned up tip dip pens

5 replies to this topic

#1 AAAndrew

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 01:39

I got a new toy for my birthday, a digital microscope. I decided to test it out with a bag of unsorted dip pens I had on hand and so I took pictures of the difference between a turned-up tip and a Oval or Round or Ball or Dome point tip. (depending on branding). 

 

These types of tips were originally made to create a smooth-writing pen. Instead of a sharp tip resting on the paper, the deformation of the very tip of the pen created a broader surface and allowed for smoother writing across the paper. The earliest form was the turned-up tip. This was just by turning up the very tip of the tines to create the broader surface. 

 

This is a Barion Pen #45. It's harder to see from the tip view, but the side view shows it very clearly. 

 

fpn_1543454744__barion_pen_45_turne_up_t

 

fpn_1543454756__barion_pen_45_turne_up_t

 

 

 

And on the bottom you can see the slightly broader, more rounded surface. 

 

fpn_1543454763__barion_pen_45_turne_up_t

 

 

 

The next is a Spencerian #42 Gilt Point Dome Point. This is the Spencerian version of the type of point made by using a very small and very hard punch to create a small bowl shape into the very tip of the tines. This creates a round shape on the bottom which makes for a very smooth writing experience. 

 

fpn_1543454710__spencerian_oval_tip_42.j

 

 

And then the bottom of the Spencerian. 

 

fpn_1543454693__spencerian_oval_tip_42_b

 

 

 

The last pen is an Esterbrook 902 Oval Point. You can see the shape of the bowl or indentation is slightly different, but the effect is basically the same. 

 

fpn_1543454642__est_902_oval_tip_top2.jp

 

 

fpn_1543454617__est_902_oval_tip_side.jp

 

 

fpn_1543454628__est_902_oval_tip_bottom.

 

 

 

 

These various kinds of tips were quite popular. Esterbrook's 788 was one of its best sellers. But because of the slightly broader surface area, you can't use these pens to get very fine hairlines. They will always make a slightly broader line than a sharp-pointed pen. As a result these were pretty much exclusively used for business, correspondence and other general uses, and not calligraphy. 

 

I think I'm going to like my new toy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



“When the historians of education do equal and exact justice to all who have contributed toward educational progress, they will devote several pages to those revolutionists who invented steel pens and blackboards.” V.T. Thayer, 1928



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#2 Honeybadgers

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 03:14

That esterbrook nib looks like it would be a very smooth writer.


Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#3 AAAndrew

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:14

Heres a list of the Oval Points made by Esterbrook. The numbers that are repeated come in different finishes. (Gray, gilt, etc...)

Attached Images

  • 63E61D2F-088E-4C93-BF80-33AB538F6D16.jpeg


“When the historians of education do equal and exact justice to all who have contributed toward educational progress, they will devote several pages to those revolutionists who invented steel pens and blackboards.” V.T. Thayer, 1928



Check out my Steel Pen Blog


"No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly."

-Montaigne


#4 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:21

Good post Andrew....another eye opener.

 

In 'white collar' clerks stood 12 hours a day at a slanted desk, they wrote with a business script, similar to Palmer. Speed and clarity of the script was what they were paid for.

At first the middle class paid to send their boys to HS, so they could get a job as a Clerk.....and the HS was much more intensive than today's pale shadow of education. 

Then more was required of Clerks, especially if one wanted to be promoted to the good jobs.

There were Business collages if you were fast you could get though in 6 weeks if not 12 weeks, and you were paying by the week. HS was not enough anymore.

 

There were many learn at home books, that taught business script.

Spenserian was for the upper class to show off with............or to sign a document. ...that didn't have a carbon. Only a Boss had a desk........in everyone knew, a clerk would goof off, if he actually sat down at the job.

 

At first, one had a double sided carbon, where one kept the original, which had a mirror copy on the back, proving you made the copy you mailed. So even then, somewhat rigid nibs were needed for carbon copies. Not Spenserian.

 

In the late 1860's single sided carbon paper came in. The RR's train orders were one original and 5 carbon copies. The Station Agent/Manager got the last & least readable copy.

The original was given to the $5.00 a day Captain of the Train, while checking 'clocks', the Conductor.  The Station Agent/Manager always had a spare good RR  pocket watch to give to the Engineer or Conductor should their watch be off. The RR company paid for the repair. Everyone working for the RR from track layer, boiler maker, and up, had a good pocket watch...if he'd fallen so low and sold his, he'd not get a job.

 

The Conductor was much more than the ticket puncher. He'd worked his way up from the tracks, to brakeman running up and down the roof of the train in all weathers, so was tough. He once welded the 'Staff of Ignorance'. Beating Hobos who hadn't paid the much lower Hobo price. The 'Staff of Ignorance' was used to give leverage when applying the brake wheels, or testing the wagon wheels when the train stopped.They got copy 4&5. The Conductor worked his way from the Freight Trains to the Passenger trains...........and was the Captain of the Train.

 

Eagle Eyes, the engineer was paid $4.00. He and his apprentice, the fireman....who was never like Hollywood shows an old back. They worked their way up out of the yard. They got the second and third copies. There was always a ledge and a railing along the locomotive. The fireman was in charge of oiling the cylinders, with hot lard or tallow  while the train was under way....in blizzards too.

 

No Engineer could take a run anywhere, with out having done an orientation run with another engineer. That house, that rock, that tree. He had to know where to slow down, and where to speed up and how much. One didn't want to de-rail nor run into another train. One had to be on time.

The fireman, had worked his way up to having driven locomotives in the yard, so was a true apprentice engineer. If I was to direct a Western....I'd have an Eagle Eyes pointing out a marker and going faster or slower, as the stunt man goes out to oil the cylinders.

 

There was western union and the rail roads for telegraphing.

Carpal tunnel syndrome, was why being a telegrapher was a young man's job. Women were paid 1/3 less and were stuck in saloon less whistle stops. Cowboys would ride 50-70 miles just to stare at that erotic/exotic creature....who had no man telling her what to do..........even if she did nothing....she might!!!! (Sigh cubed.....they never did, they were good girls.)

 

The Telephone operator, was the start of woman's lib....or to put it correctly, the first job normal women could get that paid more than less than starvation wages of 50cents a 12 hour day. Men Telephone operators had been late to work, rude and gossiped for drinks about the business they had over heard ....in Telephone was to 99% all business. (1876 zero telephones, 1881 - 76,000....and three to four women telephone operators in the world. Three in Colorado, and one perhaps in Kentucky.) You paid for the telephone line from the mast to your business, and the original City Directories of the time..had XXX telephone...." Hello Bob, give me George....George Smith." grumble, like there was another George with a telephone.

Women were on time, cheerful and wouldn't be caught dead in a saloon....the last was the most important of all.

With in the next decade, dexterous women who could type with more than two fingers soon took over the secretary job from men...........................men who had been a secretary were often promoted into management positions. Secretary became a dead end job......after women took it over.

 

 

 

So any argument that nails/manifold nibs came in in the 1930's because of carbon paper is wrong..........single sided carbon paper had been in handwritten use from @ 1867, and used in typewriters from 1872.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#5 surprise123

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 16:38

How much is a digital microscope? The snow season this year is going to be quite lucrative for me.

#6 AAAndrew

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 17:55

I believe mine was less than $70. Celestron USB Microscope Pro.

“When the historians of education do equal and exact justice to all who have contributed toward educational progress, they will devote several pages to those revolutionists who invented steel pens and blackboards.” V.T. Thayer, 1928



Check out my Steel Pen Blog


"No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly."

-Montaigne




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