A Question Of Value

[Weaveras]

Hello All,

After reading some blog posts of pen economics (www.peneconomics.com), I've been thinking of how to define value in a pen. I put together a list of criteria for what a good pen would be:

Nib:

- smooth

- spring - if there is no cushioning from the nib to aid in the smoothness, what is the point?

- ink flow

- line thickness

Grip:

- grippy

- size/thickness

- impediments

- balance

Overall:

- material

- fit and finish - looking at things like plastic to metal interfaces that will wear with time, the tightness of the seams, etc. My Studio has a bit more slop in the cap after several years, and I don't have high hopes in my Aion considering that it is similar and posting is a press fit that can't help.

- ink capacity

- carrying cost - when my Lamy 2000 went in for nib repairs, quite frankly I was less than excited about a $150 CDN nib replacement. Of course, gold offers a little more spring (I'm not looking for flex, just a bit of dampening between my hand and the cheap paper they sell here), but a steel nib with a bit of spring with the smoothness... And before that discussion gets started, I think many steel nibs are so stiff because they make them with the same dimensions as the gold ones so that they all fit the same feed.

 

Style I didn't put in because of how objective it is. Basically what it showed when I went through my pens is that my Lamy 2000 is my best pen, but if I'm looking at a new pen, I'm trying to get at an objective way of determining if a pen that I'm looking at is worth the value. Like, why is the Montegrappa Fortuna so expensive? Is the Custom 74 worth it with the mark up applied by the local distributer?

I've had far too many misses in terms of pens that I've bought and was wondering what everyone's thoughts were.

Thanks!

[A Smug Dill]

The first eight attributes you listed essentially all add up to one thing: subjective user experience – from the 'doing' to the output of the task of writing.

 

There is no objective measure of smooth versus not-smooth, and no consensus in the broader user community that totally smooth (to the point of being frictionless) is better than 'toothy' or 'feedback-y'. There is no objective measure of ink flow, and no agreement among all users that wet is better or preferable. Line thickness can be measured, but then again, what is 'good'? Is laying down a 0.3mm line good? A 0.8mm line? A 1.3mm line?

 

Obviously you want a pen that gives you the sort of writing experience that you enjoy and the output that you like, but it doesn't mean the pen is 'worth' more in any objective way to anyone else; and there are probably $10 pens that can give you a similar writing experience to a particular $100 pen, but it still wouldn't mean one of those $10 pens is worth $100, or that the $100 pen is only worth $10.

 

As for whether "the Custom 74 worth it with the mark up applied by the local distributer", you're paying for access, convenience, customer service, and risk minimisation (through having domestic warranty, protection of local consumer law, etc.) and that's not really part of the equation of the worth of the pen itself.

[TheRealMikeDr]

I've been pondering how you define value in a pen too. Value for a tool would be gauged by how well it works and how long it works and how much it costs - in comparison to similar tools. While a pen can be considered a tool - in reality these are luxury items and don't fall into the same bucket IMO.

 

Value would include the materials as well as how functional it is along with several factors that could be called intangibles. Maybe resale value needs to be looked at as well. Clearly some of this is subjective, hence it's a challenging thing to look at.

[ParkerDuofold]

Hi Weaveras,

 

Don't try to be a proctologist for a gnat... I've been there and done that... it rarely pays out any real dividends.

 

 

The L2K is an outstanding pen... you can't really go wrong with one... the Pilot 74/91/92 are also excellent pens... I don't think you'd regret buying any one of them, either.

 

One word of caution... Pilot broad nibs have a tendency for baby's bottom... that's the only real problem I've encountered with the lot listed above.

 

 

When it comes to price/value... that's your call... trust your gut... you'll know when you've hit it when you begin to question the price they're asking.

 

Be well and enjoy life... and your pens.

 

 

- Anthony

[Weaveras]

To A Smug Dill - I think you just proved my point on value with your comments on the Custom 74 - most of the reviews of that pen state that they either got it on eBay or through Amazon. Srebrown actually stated in his review that it wasn't a good deal if not ordered from Japan directly as it moves into a price range where they don't compete as well. The fact that it is such a popular pen is testament to the fact that the value is high for the price from Japan.

 

TheRealMikeDr - Yes, there is an aspect of luxury item to fountain pens, particularly as the price goes up. At the same time, there must be an aspect of a value calculation that the manufacturers perform, otherwise their product wouldn't sell. Honestly looking for good value for the money, and as I'm not close to a comprehensive pen store, I'm trying to get at what price point do I get good value.

 

Anthony - I don't trust my gut after my most recent pen purchase where the pen felt good in my hand, and I liked the style, but the ink flow issues and the annoying way it posted made it a vastly mediocre purchase. It's still an OK pen, but one that I can take or leave and am not really excited about using. Thus, trying to use my analytical skills to make it more objective.

[ParkerDuofold]

Anthony - I don't trust my gut after my most recent pen purchase where the pen felt good in my hand, and I liked the style, but the ink flow issues and the annoying way it posted made it a vastly mediocre purchase. It's still an OK pen, but one that I can take or leave and am not really excited about using. Thus, trying to use my analytical skills to make it more objective.

Hi, again, Weaveras,

 

Yes, I know... and I understand. Devising an analytical, objective matrix for selecting new pens I'll leave for others with more time than I have to expound on.

 

For me, I'll just say this:

 

Sometimes, (censored) happens.

 

No matter how much objective research you do... and I have my doubts if TRUE objectivity is even possible where a personal avocation is concerned, (and I'm not advising you not to try), just don't wring your hands or obsess over it.

 

But with fountain pens... there is only one immutable fact... each one is different... and no matter how much research you do or objective logic you apply, it's always a crapshoot.

 

I've purchased pens that I thought were great... and/or everyone raved about... and mine turned out to be garbage... I've bought multiple pens, of the same model, but different colors or nib sizes... some were great... a few were terrible... the same pen... the only difference was the color. This has happened to me with Safaris, Al-Stars, Online Magic's, etc.

 

Each and every pen is going to be a gamble and involve some risk... it's the nature of the beast.

 

All that said, I sincerely hope you can find a formula or matrix that works for you. Be well.

 

 

- Anthony

[miwishi63]

Anthony's comments above are spot on. My sense is that the value of a fountain pen is largely subjective, although that is, of course, debatable. I value some of my inexpensive pens more than the expensive ones simply because I find the experience of writing with them more enjoyable. In other words, how I experience the pen is more important to me than the cost, especially given that my purchases are limited to the amount of discretionary income at my disposal.

 

- Mike

[A Smug Dill]

To A Smug Dill - I think you just proved my point on value with your comments on the Custom 74 - most of the reviews of that pen state that they either got it on eBay or through Amazon.

I don't see it that way. If the local retailer mark-up is US$50 on an item, say, the question is not whether the item itself is worth the extra US$50, but whether the non-tangible aspects of the transaction is worth that dollar amount. The pen itself could be Pilot or Pelikan or Jinhao, and US$2000 or US$200 or US$2.

[TheRealMikeDr]

TheRealMikeDr - Yes, there is an aspect of luxury item to fountain pens, particularly as the price goes up. At the same time, there must be an aspect of a value calculation that the manufacturers perform, otherwise their product wouldn't sell. Honestly looking for good value for the money, and as I'm not close to a comprehensive pen store, I'm trying to get at what price point do I get good value.

 

My apologies - I was caught up in my own thoughts and didn't make an attempt to answer your question!

 

My opinion (I've got about 125 pens - ranging in cost from $1,000 to $1.00) is the sweet spot for "best value" happens in the $75 to $150 range. You can get a 14K gold nib and on some a piston filler (two things that many consider to be nice features - my opinion varies on that a bit) on a pen that will be reliable for years to come. That includes mainstream pens like the Pilot Custom 74, the Platinum 3776, the Lamy 2000, the Pilot CH 92. I own all four of those and would recommend all of them.

 

If you want to spend another $200 you get a lot of great pens to choose from - but you don't (in my opinion) get much more value for the money - rather you get more "art" and intangible things. Things which may or may not matter to most. Branding, etc.

 

Have fun with the hunt - that's all part of the enjoyment!

Edited November 27, 2018 by TheRealMikeDr

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO a nail is a nail, be it gold...14K or 18K or steel..........there is no 'soft' to it.

 

What I think with this "soft" gold, is a gold semi-nail is compared to a steel nail.

 

If I compared a steel semi-nail with one of my gold nails........'soft steel'.

[senzen]

Value depends on a lot more than product attributes, like what and who we identify with, what it says about ourselves, how it lets us express ourselves. Think of it as a continuum between looking for a product and looking for our brand. My original quest was to arrive at legible handwriting which didn't hurt (death grip) and helped me compartmentalize my ideas. Along the way I discovered the simple joy of looking at nice colours like Tsuyu Kusa, or calming colours like Hisoku.

[jar]

Srebrown like everybody else has opinions and his have just about the same value as any other opinion out there.

[Weaveras]

Hello Mike & Anthony,

I agree that sometimes it doesn't pan out. In fact this conversation has been useful to me in keeping that perspective. At the same time, my tolerance for a poor pen as the price goes up is increasingly low. Personally I want to be more objective in hopes of longer satisfaction with the product vs swept up in the hype.

 

TheRealMikeDr - thanks for your insight. Intuitively I was coming to a similar conclusion in terms of price point. I also appreciate someone with a lot more pens stating to look in a certain bracket for best value.

 

Pseudo88 - I agree. As soon as you start looking for value, you also reveal a lot about your values and priorities. Although I didn't mention it, something I quite appreciate with my Lamy 2000 is that it is quite subtle around my office.

 

Bo Bo Olson - sorry, a little too quantitative vs qualitative. When I see a nib of set dimensions, and then look at the materials, I'm thinking more Young's modulus and elasticity. In the case of someone like Lamy, their Safari and Studio have the same feed and interchangeable nibs. From what I've observed, the gold and steel nibs are the same dimensions, and due to gold being the softer metal, there is a spring like effect. The reality is that if the dimensions of the steel nib were changed to be thinner, in theory, they could be made to write the same, thus getting... Soft steel...

 

Jar - I like that srebrown has done a lot of reviews and he is somewhat consistent, so if I like a pen and see what he says, I can ballpark what I will think of another. At the same time, he kind of reminds me of a slightly less bombastic version of Jeremy Clarkson - you always end up with the pinnacle being expensive Italians.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you want to believe your gold nail is softer than your steel nail.........The Gold Myth is so nice....

 

Deleted. Logic has little to do with nibs.

IMO a gold semi-nail compared to steal nail = soft gold.

 

Why should a steel nib be the same thickness as a gold nib?

 

Both gold and steel can be alloyed to give the nib maker what the customer wants.

Checked a few nibs.....a nail's nail 14 K 400 D nib, vs a regular flex steel 120, and a maxi-semi-flex 14 K 400nn's nib....hard eyeballed the same width. Had expected the nail's nail to be thicker.

The difference in shape was minimal also. Expected more difference considering the difference in flex rate.

 

It's not the % of gold it's the rest of the alloy and same with the steel....which steel?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Weaveras]

Hey Bo Bo,

A question for you - after accidentally dropping my Lamy 2000 and being quoted for a new nib, a steel nib with a bit of spring is quite appealing. Do you have any recommendations?

[inkandseeds]

Don’t confuse the value with the price. As others have pointed out, you can find a great writing experience (value) in an inexpensive pen. A lot depends on what you are using the pen for, i.e. desk pen versus pen for field notes.

[Weaveras]

Completely agree. My Lamy al-star with the partially worn off paint and dent is great for a true beater pen that writes well for what it is. In a more controlled environment, it doesn't compare to my 2000.

At the same time, I was looking at a Faber-Castell Loom for similar reasons, but when I consider the price vs the Made in China stamp under the clip, the value plummeted vs if it said Germany instead.

[A Smug Dill]

but when I consider the price vs the Made in China stamp under the clip, the value plummeted vs if it said Germany instead.

But why is that? That, to me, is the question to ask.

 

Not that I disagree with you; I'm of Chinese background, and I'll choose a German-made pen in spite of an up-to-20% price premium over a Chinese-made pen, all else being equal about that pen. But that's subjective, not objective. Even if you're looking at resale value – which is based on prospective buyers' subjective perception – it still doesn't make a German-made pen objectively better (or better value).

 

With close to a hundred fountain pens in my household now, my personal conclusion is: forget what anyone else thinks is good value. The only value of and in the pen I own is based on how much I value it, given I spare no thought of (re)selling any pen I have, be it a $5 pen or a $500 pen. That includes the 50th Anniversary limited edition Pilot Vanishing Point pen I cannot bring myself to ink and use, for fear of staining the light-coloured maple barrel. I love looking at it, I like the feel of it, and it's great as a decorative piece for me right now, but as a writing instrument it is of no value. All the same, I do not regret buying it (and the current asking price for it on eBay and so on is far higher now, not that I care for how much others are prepared to pay for it today).

[TheDutchGuy]

My original quest was to arrive at legible handwriting which didn't hurt (death grip) and helped me compartmentalize my ideas. Along the way I discovered the simple joy of looking at nice colours like Tsuyu Kusa, or calming colours like Hisoku.

+1.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Weaveras, Lamy will do a free repair, it is a life long type of thing. more. Like Cross.

Just send it back to Lamy. Which is a 15 minute drive from where I live. I did a newspaper won factory tour some 6 or so years ago.

 

A vintage Artus, if you want to stay by Lamy, for a springy regular flex nib.

 

Best and Cheapest (Best Buy) is a Geha School pen (with serial number) , that you can get on German Ebay for E12-19.....or buy it on US Ebay for only $89.....push the Buy Now Idiot button.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson