Jump to content

Reactions Between Inks


adim

Recommended Posts

I was thinking: there is a general precaution and practice to thoroughly wash (flush) a pen especially when changing inks and/or colours. My guess is that, aside from the actual "colour impurities" (e.g. getting a blueish red if one changes from blue to red and doesn't flush properly), there may be some chemical reactions between inks, which can cause some damage to the internals of the pen.

 

However, I have to ask: how realistic, how likely is this possibility of chemical reactions between inks, if one uses well-known and respected brands, fresh ink, without special components (e.g. some kind of glitter, special formula, shimmer etc)? Have you actually noticed such a problem?

 

I'm thinking in practical terms: I highly doubt that most heavy users (e.g. writers) actually flushed their pens regularly and I also doubt that they had money to spend on pens, but neither did they write with broken junk. So my guess is that if one actually uses their pens regularly or even better, heavily, there are little concerns to have for any kind of maintenance, provided the pens and inks are not "extra special". Yes, I know, the extent of "extra special-ness" is the actual cause of debate and caution, but still...

 

What do you guys think?

 

I would go as far as saying that if, say, one has a Pelikan, Lamy, Parker, Montblanc, ST Dupont, Visconti, Montegrappa (...) pen and uses Pelikan, Lamy, Parker, Montblanc, Diamine (...) inks, one never has to clean or "maintain" their pen, unless it actually breaks or they mind impure colours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 33
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • adim

    7

  • KBeezie

    6

  • Bo Bo Olson

    3

  • Honeybadgers

    3

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi Adim,

 

Well, nightmare scenarios can... and do actually happen... ask anyone who didn't COMPLETELY flush Bay State Blue out of their pen before they filled it with another ink. :sick:

 

The thing is, dyes and chemicals can have negative interactions... a lot of it depends on whether or not those dyes and chemicals are suspended in an alkaline solution or an acidic one. Mixing those can cause clogging, nib crud, etc. (And yes, it's happened to me... it's pretty difficult to COMPLETELY flush a modern plastic feed with its 8,000 fins :D).

 

When you refer to professional writers and heavy ink users, I'm assuming you're referring to the days of yore; since most publishing companies now demand digital submissions, (and typewritten since the '20s/30s).

 

Way back when... before there was an internet and a true global market... this wasn't really an issue because each region of the world had their own preferences, e.g., in Europe and North America, acidic based inks were the norm... base solutions were more popular in Asia.

 

So, while our forefathers weren't as fastidious about pen maintenance as we are today... they didn't really have to be... they were all using basically the same ink, regardless of the brand name... furthermore,... along those lines... they had a lot more brand loyalty than we do today, which also made it less of an issue.

 

So, actually, it is good and practical advice to flush your pen... especially if your switching from Waterman to Iroshizuku. ;)

 

Be well. :)

 

 

- Anthony

 

 

EDITED to correct typo.

Edited by ParkerDuofold
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply, Anthony! This is especially valuable information, I haven't thought about the lack of diversity in inks (and implicitly their chemical formulae) back in the days.

 

Thank you also for the advice, I'll keep on my practice of flushing the pens when changing inks then. :) Although thus far I have only used Montblanc and Pelikan Edelstein.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are several kind of dyes(ph I mean) alcaline, acid, neutral...and some time do not match well...it is not a big deal...so I do not like to say "damage to the internals of the pen" but probably you will get some flow issue in your pen if you do not flush properly...Best Regards. :thumbup:

Edited by Mr.Rene
Link to comment
Share on other sites

R&K says do not mix any ink with their Sepia...and clean the hell out of your pen............some day I'll use some............get me a R&K Sepia only pen.....or a pen that is easy to clean....a CC pen for sure.

 

Basically any major non-supersaturated ink, Herbin, R&K, Pelikan, MB, Kaweco, Diamine (outside of ancient copper)...I'd expect no problems if a bit was still in the pen, when the next ink load came in.

Some DA inks are not supersaturated, there are a few Noodler inks that are not supersaturated, the ones that shade.

How much problem supersaturated inks...out side Bay State Blue are, you'd have to look. I seldom use supersaturated inks, in I like two toned shading....and am looking for sheen.

 

(I've never used a Japanese ink and at E22, so see doing so............that is now over the last couple of years thanks to Amazon, so much cheaper than the E70 it use to cost. )

 

IMO for regular run of the mill inks, if a touch of the old ink still there is no big problem. Unless you are using yellow, orange or ocher ink.

 

There are over in the Ink Section, many an alchemist who mixes this and that main brand ink, so you could look there and find out what is their Never Ever Mix inks.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ adim -- There was a thread a few years ago when someone tried to make the "ideal" blue-black ink, and mixed Noodler's Bay State Blue (extremely alkaline) and Noodler's Black (which I believe is neutral pH). The photos weren't pretty (the two inks never really mixed, and then came out of the poster's pen in, um, chunks.... So even mixing inks within the same brand can be problematic. (Me, I limit my use of BSB to a pen dedicated to it, especially after seeing those photos -- but even before that it was because that ink stains everything in sight....)

Back in the heyday of fountain pens, people might have a couple at most, if they needed different colors of ink. But the odds were good that they'd used the same brand of ink as the pen, and most people were probably just using blue or black. There wasn't the huge range of ink brands and colors there are now -- and if you were refilling your one and only pen with the same ink all the time, you didn't have to be flushing your pen constantly.

@ Bo Bo Olsen -- Thanks for the heads up about R&K Sepia, Bo Bo! I have a sample of it but haven't tried it yet.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've killed a rollerball j. jerbin by not flushing the BSB well enough. Nearly killed a preppy feed the same way.

 

I've never seen an ink react with any other apart from iron galls and baystate inks.

 

I have a bottle of R&K sepia and have done only mild flushes (water wasn't perfectly clear) before refilling and have never had problems with that ink.

 

I don't love that ink anyways, but I can report that it's been an easy ink to use.

 

The only known super serious ink to never, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER mix with anything other than other baystate colors (i.e. concord grape) is the baystate line. Those inks will literally coagulate when mixed with any other ink in a matter of seconds.

Edited by Honeybadgers

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never had a problem switching between Rohrer & Klingner Sepia and any other ink. I do flush my pens before changing inks, but I don't take them apart or use anything stronger than distilled water for cleaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back when I first joined the forum there was a fuss about one of the PR inks not playing well with others. Orange Crush, maybe?

Dave Campbell
Retired Science Teacher and Active Pen Addict
Every day is a chance to reduce my level of ignorance.

fpn_1425200643__fpn_1425160066__super_pi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally speaking, Iron Gall doesn't like touching any other kinds of inks (even if it's more "FP Friendly" like R&K), or more picky inks like Noodler's (baystate, or some more interesting options).

 

I know that I have/had a Pilot Super 250 that had a latex sac that was installed by a previous owner, that was likely from that large batch a few years back that wasn't quite right, pen previously had Iroshizuku Syo-ro in it, that was flushed or so I thought was flushed rather well, and then inked with Waterman South Seas blue (now called inpsired blue) and noticed after a week or so it was leaking out into the barrel. Removing the sac protector I noticed that the waterman south seas blue had chemically ruptured the sac. So chalked it up to the mixture of it with the syo-ro that was saturated in the sac lining to potentially being a bad sac batch. Got it all cleaned out and replaced the sac with one I had of compatible size that I had previously left over from an old fountainpensacs order.

 

The only R&K inks I use are Salix and Scabiosa, FP friendly ion galls, but I mainly only use it in older vintage pens with 14k gold nibs with an straight ebonite feed channel and give it a good flushing if I do change out the ink (and it's not like it's going to stain latex or hard rubber, or black celluloid, and can't corrode gold).

 

Back when I first joined the forum there was a fuss about one of the PR inks not playing well with others. Orange Crush, maybe?

I remember some of that fuss, in general wasn't one specific color, but basically a lot of the product line was as a friend called it a mold factory as almost every bottle or sample seen from various batches would develop mold within a month and was the only brand of ink he'd acquire that did that.

 

I'm curious if that is still the case as it seems like they've changed production hands?

Edited by KBeezie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's a growing mountain of evidence that red inks are just not appropriate for latex sacs.

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's a growing mountain of evidence that red inks are just not appropriate for latex sacs.

Yes indeed! And cleaning them out of (and off of!) vintage pens is an awful chore, and oftentimes impossible. I despise red ink for the latter reason more than the former, though. Sac replacement is no problemo, but indelible pink stains and irremediable red crud are an insult :D

Edited by bass1193
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the replies! A lot to learn here.

 

I have never used Noodler's inks, as they are hard (if not impossible) to find where I live and they don't appeal to me enough to be worth an ebay order. But I've read a lot about their special behaviour so I was expecting something to be mentioned here as well.

 

The inks that are easiest to find here are Montblanc, Parker, Pelikan, GvFC, Lamy, Iroshizuku and I would consider an order of Diamine from Appelboom. Other than that, I'm not generally looking forward to experiments or more exotic inks.

 

Regarding reds, I do have to say that I had a small problem with Montblanc's Burgundy Red, though. I kept seeing dark blueish stains on the cap and around the neck of the bottle, until I noticed that it developed some kind of deposit on the bottom of the bottle. I'm not sure whether it was my fault for not keeping it in a colder and darker place or it was just old or bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the replies! A lot to learn here.

 

I have never used Noodler's inks, as they are hard (if not impossible) to find where I live and they don't appeal to me enough to be worth an ebay order. But I've read a lot about their special behaviour so I was expecting something to be mentioned here as well.

 

The inks that are easiest to find here are Montblanc, Parker, Pelikan, GvFC, Lamy, Iroshizuku and I would consider an order of Diamine from Appelboom. Other than that, I'm not generally looking forward to experiments or more exotic inks.

 

Regarding reds, I do have to say that I had a small problem with Montblanc's Burgundy Red, though. I kept seeing dark blueish stains on the cap and around the neck of the bottle, until I noticed that it developed some kind of deposit on the bottom of the bottle. I'm not sure whether it was my fault for not keeping it in a colder and darker place or it was just old or bad.

Noodler's isn't that common to find outside of the US, and they seem attractive here because you get a lot inexpensively (90ml for around 12 USD depending on ink), but you really do have to research the qualities of the specific ink, unlike some of the other brands you mentioned (namely Montblanc, Pelikan, Lamy, Waterman) behaviors from one ink to another can vary greatly.

 

A particular Noodler's ink I like a lot is X-Feather, pretty black ink that's waterproof and designed not to feather or bleed on even crappy paper. Being a "bulletproof" ink, it can be harder to clean out and that's a factor when I decide what to put it in. It lives in my Lamy 2000 most of the time, which I can flush pretty easily if I need to. Where as Noodler's Apache Sunset is not water resistant at all, and flushes out very easily.

 

But I've also noticed that within the brand, some of the inks really don't like even a smudge of each other coming into contact, for example Liberty's Elysium (a Goulet Pens exclusive) came into contact with Apache Sunset in a cheaper pen where some of the tiny bit of stuck blue ink trapped on top of the nib in the grip came into contact with apache sunset, and turned into green sludge that required disassembly to get cleaned out completely. (and Noodler's Baystate blue coming into contact with just about any ink is a darwin grabbag of reactions, once dotted it on paper on top of other previous inks to watch it's reaction turn it into metallic sheens).

 

Something like Montblanc Irish Green on the other hand, behaves very well, and tends not to feather/bleed on paper, flows nicely as if lubricated, and doesn't seem to take much to flush out of the pen (it is not waterproof), plus has a lovely shading property. Similarly Pelikan's Ink of the Year Smokey Quartz behaves nicely, easy to clean, and flows well. Exceptions in those brands may be specialty inks, like iron gall permanent inks (which Montblanc and Lamy used to use for their older blue-blacks).

 

Noodler's, Diamine, Private Reserve, etc have a few different inks that aren't so closely related in behavior. Diamine is very good brand if you want an ink similar to what Noodler's offers (lots of varieties, very inexpensive). On the Diamine side I really like Oxblood, Coral, and Hope Pink, but they will stain the hell out of your fingers and some materials lol. Diamine Majestic Blue has a nice lovely red sheen to it, but known to smudge after drying. I do like Diamine Poppy Red for just a straight basic red that appears to be well behaved. There has been some really funky effects from Diamine Ancient Copper, that doesn't damage the pens but has freaked people out when it foams up and crusts out of the feed. But haven't seen anything quite like the notoriety that Noodler's Baystate Blue has.

 

Akkerman may be another one you might be able to get your hands on that has a lot of nice options (which some people swear is re-branded Diamine).

 

You also might be able to get some very affordable deals on KWZ inks in your area, but I don't know as much about them.

 

If you want a deep dark red that shades nicely and is quite affordable, take a look at Diamine Oxblood. I've used it in my 1950s Pelikan 140 with a broad cursive italic over a years time with no ill effect (just takes a little time to flush, but it hasn't stained the green ink window).

Edited by KBeezie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Purple inks should be cleaned out of piston pens with an ink window....don't know if every time it runs out, but at least the second time.(If one uses it often....if the pen tends to sit in the pen cup....every time a purple ink empties, clean well.)

 

No red ink in a piston pen with an ink window....both stain ink windows...Red has a major bad rep on that.

For me MB Collodi is much more a red than a red-brown, so I don't use it in my piston pens. I buy no red ink, period....not good for sacs nor pistons. Don't grade papers, so don't need reds, much less pinks.

 

Will treat the Burgundy/Bordeaux like red inks, and clean after each use, though I could possibly if used real often, again, clean after a second re-fill.

 

There are more tricks now to cleaning out ink stains than a decade ago.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is easy. If you have an ink which is alkaline and if you mix it with an ink that is acidic, you can create a precipitate which is not soluble in water.

If you are unlucky - it clogs your feed.

 

That is the (main) problem. Don't mix inks as long as you are not using mixable inks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so basically I will keep a close eye on the ph levels of the inks I (intend to) use, plus if there are extra cautions mentioned for the specific model.

 

I've found this article containing the ph levels of a variety of inks:

 

https://www.indy-pen-dance.com/Inks-Report-on-the-pH-of-More-than-60-Inks.html

 

I remember them blaming Iroshizuku Kon-Peki as a possible culprit as to why plating suddenly came off a bexley nib that they replaced as a courtesy on a Jitterbug I got second hand.

 

 

... Japanese inks are also highly alkaline, so they could be the culprit as well when looking at nib plating issues. ...

 

Just kind of hard to believe that ink designed for fountain pens from a major brand would be severe enough to hurt a properly plated nib.

 

I noticed the list doesn't list any of Noodler's PH Neutral inks.

 

Some manufactures will say that their inks are purposely alkaline to inhibit the growth of mold and fungus.

 

Once had the nickle plated lit of a brand new bottle of Caran d'Ache orange eaten away by the ink (they changed the way the lid was designed after I reported it to them and showed the severe pitting the ink caused to the lid). But they were a bit ambiguous about just how alkaline their ink was.

 

 

As all fountain pen inks, the Caran d'Ache ink has no neutral PH. In the case of Chromatics "Electric orange" the ink is alkaline (PH > 7).

 

Pretty vague, cuz anything above water could be all the way up to 11 :P

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/caran_clean3.jpg

Edited by KBeezie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...so it seems that the only proper way to deal with such ambiguities and potential dangers is to thoroughly flush the pen when changing inks or every once in a while (a couple of months, I guess?), whichever comes first.

 

Since not everybody has a ph indicator at home and manufacturers could be ambiguous when disclosing chemical information, I guess that's the way to handle it safely.

 

And wow, the Caran d'Ache example looks extreme!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...so it seems that the only proper way to deal with such ambiguities and potential dangers is to thoroughly flush the pen when changing inks or every once in a while (a couple of months, I guess?), whichever comes first.

 

Since not everybody has a ph indicator at home and manufacturers could be ambiguous when disclosing chemical information, I guess that's the way to handle it safely.

 

And wow, the Caran d'Ache example looks extreme!

 

A lot of the older pens were not planned to be completely flushed out (except maybe for long term storage), so most of the time you just simply refilled the ink as needed.

 

Course if you don't write enough to empty the pen within a month or two, you'll probably want to refill with a freshly agitated (shaken/rotated) bottle to replinish the ink with a proper mix (otherwise too much water evaporates off and you get a more saturated mix in your pen which can cause problems like taking forever to dry or not going on the paper as expected).

 

In the case of something like R&K Salix and Scabiosa (both are nice waterproof, FP "friendly" iron galls, but are acidic, but not as bad as traditional iron galls like even Montblanc had back in the day), you would want to give a good flush every couple of months mainly to prevent long term staining.

 

Pen hygiene is important, but unless you're changing inks every other week, it's probably best not to become obsessive about it, that's how pens get broken (wear and tear beyond what was normally expected of end users). If you are that excessive, it may be good to have a pen that can be easily disassembled, or designed to be serviced by the end user (such as TWSBI). A Lamy 2000 for example can be easily disassembled for a good deep cleaning of the nib/feed, but doing that too often could potentially crack the section/threads (which happened more often before 2012 when they still had plastic-on-plastic threading).

 

If paranoid the more-than-safe options tend to be your typical Waterman line or Pelikan 4001 inks (and the extra paranoid only use the same brand as the pen).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Most Contributions

    1. amberleadavis
      amberleadavis
      43844
    2. PAKMAN
      PAKMAN
      33494
    3. Ghost Plane
      Ghost Plane
      28220
    4. inkstainedruth
      inkstainedruth
      26624
    5. jar
      jar
      26101
  • Upcoming Events

  • Blog Comments

    • Shanghai Knife Dude
      I have the Sailor Naginata and some fancy blade nibs coming after 2022 by a number of new workshop from China.  With all my respect, IMHO, they are all (bleep) in doing chinese characters.  Go use a bush, or at least a bush pen. 
    • A Smug Dill
      It is the reason why I'm so keen on the idea of a personal library — of pens, nibs, inks, paper products, etc. — and spent so much money, as well as time and effort, to “build” it for myself (because I can't simply remember everything, especially as I'm getting older fast) and my wife, so that we can “know”; and, instead of just disposing of what displeased us, or even just not good enough to be “given the time of day” against competition from >500 other pens and >500 other inks for our at
    • adamselene
      Agreed.  And I think it’s good to be aware of this early on and think about at the point of buying rather than rationalizing a purchase..
    • A Smug Dill
      Alas, one cannot know “good” without some idea of “bad” against which to contrast; and, as one of my former bosses (back when I was in my twenties) used to say, “on the scale of good to bad…”, it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Whereas subjectively acceptable (or tolerable) and unacceptable may well be a dichotomy to someone, and finding whether the threshold or cusp between them lies takes experiencing many degrees of less-than-ideal, especially if the decision is somehow influenced by factors o
    • adamselene
      I got my first real fountain pen on my 60th birthday and many hundreds of pens later I’ve often thought of what I should’ve known in the beginning. I have many pens, the majority of which have some objectionable feature. If they are too delicate, or can’t be posted, or they are too precious to face losing , still they are users, but only in very limited environments..  I have a big disliking for pens that have the cap jump into the air and fly off. I object to Pens that dry out, or leave blobs o
  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Files






×
×
  • Create New...