Is It Legal?

[Honeybadgers]

 

OTOH, there is no U.S. government sales tax . There used to be, but that was long ago. Now sales taxes are much more local.

 

And seeing what people in Europe are paying , the state + local taxes around the U.S.A. are not so bad. Not that I like paying any of them, of course.

 

And a merry Go Off Your Diet Day to everyone in or associated with said U.S.A .

 

And only a few states have no sales tax either, so if you live in america, you're almost definitely paying sales tax. But taxes also vary from city to city. There's a 5 cent tax on every paper bag you buy in seattle, but 5 miles outside of that area in Renton, there isn't.

 

It'd be nice to just have the federal government set the flat rate tax between every state and enforce it to be included in the advertised cost, but that just wouldn't work for a hundred different reasons. (forcing states to include all taxes and fees in their listed prices is something I don't understand why we can't do, though)

 

Taxes are important. They are what keep the schools open, roads paved, police and firemen paid, and outside of the US, pay for that ambulance and hospital visit plus month of medication that would otherwise have cost you ten thousand dollars if you were unlucky enough to not have insurance. My mother in law died having over two million dollars in medical debt between her cancer and her child's autism, diabetes, and celiac disease.

 

And now I got the thread locked

Edited November 22, 2018 by Honeybadgers

[A Smug Dill]

Haha, I got sucked in (eyes wide open) just now by the lure of Black Friday discounts, 'free' shipping and not having to pay consumption tax on a reasonably expensive purchase.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm glad I stayed in Germany, or I'd have to get a retired job or three; instead of having time to BS here.

Someone lost the worlds greatest collection of Wearever pens, at less than 10 cents on the dollar, because of capitalist medicine. House too I think....he coudn't breath, had a ox bottle.

 

Socialistic German medicine....the mother-in-law would be out max $10.00 a day in the hospital....most super expensive medicine cost is taken over by the health insurance***.....if you work or are retired you pay 13-15% insurance. If you don't work it's taken care of by the Government. No body loses house, car, pen-collection or a six pack of beer.

It's not as good as it use to be, the American influence is coming, and in parts arrived; with the old folks prisons.

 

*** most folks can afford the normal E-5-7-10 medicine costs.....if not one goes to the social department and that will be covered.

 

My mother worked half time, as a typist at a local newspaper after she retired, until she was 80 and had her house paid off. Then she could afford to take the house payments and buy Blue Cross; in US government medical care wasn't very good. ...pre the gutted Obama Care.

 

Clinton had the Establishment torpedo his health plan (much stronger than Obama Care).....the FBI spent $1,000,000 to make sure the President's mind remained where it was instead of on health care plans.

Poor Monica.

.....well, Cuba is better.. ...

It's so sad, when I was a child, the US had the best or at least a very good medical insurance system. Never quite as good as the European, in the US had sick hours to be earned, the Euro's not.

 

A real sad story, some cancer stricken US Government worker in Germany, had to beg in the Stars and Stripes; the overseas newspaper, for sick hours donations, so he could die in the job; so his wife would get a better pension....than if they fired him for exceeding his sick hours. And then died, unemployed.

 

Once pre-Reagan, If someone worked full time the whole family was covered...........there had been no Reagan cheap insurance option....and no part time even cheaper insurance plans (no you couldn't pay more)....or working less than 20 hours for none.

 

Congress is cheap to bribe, as long as the Big Lie is professionally told.

Somebody is going to get something for nothing....or for cheap....let them die.

Propaganda will change people from a proud freedom loving generous folk.....to thumbs down on the poor. With all the trees around, someone neglected to tell your neighbor, you live in a Forest.

 

My wife was right, go to the US where they only have 10 days of vacation a year???? Are you crazy....and that was back before Reagan. Germans have 30 days/ 6 weeks.

I'm very glad I stayed.

[ParkerDuofold]

I'm glad I stayed in Germany, or I'd have to get a retired job or three; instead of having time to BS here.

Someone lost the worlds greatest collection of Wearever pens, at less than 10 cents on the dollar, because of capitalist medicine. House too I think....he coudn't breath, had a ox bottle.

 

Socialistic German medicine....the mother-in-law would be out max $10.00 a day in the hospital....most super expensive medicine cost is taken over by the health insurance***.....if you work or are retired you pay 13-15% insurance. If you don't work it's taken care of by the Government. No body loses house, car, pen-collection or a six pack of beer.

It's not as good as it use to be, the American influence is coming, and in parts arrived; with the old folks prisons.

 

*** most folks can afford the normal E-5-7-10 medicine costs.....if not one goes to the social department and that will be covered.

 

My mother worked half time, as a typist at a local newspaper after she retired, until she was 80 and had her house paid off. Then she could afford to take the house payments and buy Blue Cross; in US government medical care wasn't very good. ...pre the gutted Obama Care.

 

Clinton had the Establishment torpedo his health plan (much stronger than Obama Care).....the FBI spent $1,000,000 to make sure the President's mind remained where it was instead of on health care plans.

Poor Monica.

.....well, Cuba is better.. ...

It's so sad, when I was a child, the US had the best or at least a very good medical insurance system. Never quite as good as the European, in the US had sick hours to be earned, the Euro's not.

 

A real sad story, some cancer stricken US Government worker in Germany, had to beg in the Stars and Stripes; the overseas newspaper, for sick hours donations, so he could die in the job; so his wife would get a better pension....than if they fired him for exceeding his sick hours. And then died, unemployed.

 

Once pre-Reagan, If someone worked full time the whole family was covered...........there had been no Reagan cheap insurance option....and no part time even cheaper insurance plans (no you couldn't pay more)....or working less than 20 hours for none.

 

Congress is cheap to bribe, as long as the Big Lie is professionally told.

Somebody is going to get something for nothing....or for cheap....let them die.

Propaganda will change people from a proud freedom loving generous folk.....to thumbs down on the poor. With all the trees around, someone neglected to tell your neighbor, you live in a Forest.

 

My wife was right, go to the US where they only have 10 days of vacation a year???? Are you crazy....and that was back before Reagan. Germans have 30 days/ 6 weeks.

I'm very glad I stayed.

Hi BoBo, et al,

 

I cannot complain about our medical system here in the States. Fortunately, I haven't needed it... and it did very well by my mom.

 

Since February, she's gone through three surgeries, several batteries of tests, several stays in hospitals, a life-flight to a specialist hospital that people from Europe and Asia clamber here to get treated in; two ambulance trips; an ocean of pharmaceuticals; aftercare rehab facilities; then in-home physical and occupational therapists and nurses, etc., etc., etc.

 

She "died" twice... perhaps three times... and was pulled back to life each time... and after two brain surgeries,... at the age of 80... will be driving again again and living completely independently in a couple more months time.

 

I went through my ledger... ALL of that and then some... has cost her (me) a grand total of $177.83.

 

I'll take American medicine any day of the week.

 

The only problem I faced was that hospitals have a tendency to release people sooner than they used to... into nursing home/re-hab aftercare facilities... and the good ones are always booked solid, w/o any vacancies... which leaves the lower-rated places as your only option... unless you opt to take care of them at home... which is what I did this time around.

 

All in all, though, I have sincere doubts if I'd still have my mom with me if this would have happened in some other parts of the world... which shall remain nameless... less this become too political... let's just say I'm grateful to live where I do.

 

Be well all. God bless.

 

 

- Anthony

[ParkerDuofold]

...(i.e. we pay upwards of 9% extra on almost everything we buy in person that isn't listed on the sale price, which is just annoying mental math)

Hi HB,

 

Yes. I know what you mean... this is one of the biggest gripes foreign visitors have when they visit the States... in Europe, the shelf price typically includes VAT, (et al).

 

It would be more convenient if the actual price were indicated on the shelf sticker... but then people wouldn't buy as much... which would be terribly upsetting to the merchants.

 

Be well.

 

 

- Anthony

[A Smug Dill]

this is one of the biggest gripes foreign visitors have when they visit the States...

Haha, as long as it's just "one of the biggest" and not "the [single] biggest", yes. Even if we avoid talking about politics here, there's always still the issue of effectively compulsory tipping!

[inkstainedruth]

@ A Smug Dill -- When we lived in MA, there was an article in the paper about a guy who lived the next town over from us. He started an organization called "Tippers Anonymous". He believed in tipping very well for excellent service, but would only tip 5-10% for poor service. You could buy "business cards" that said "You have just served a member of Tippers Anonymous", which you would leave with your tip.

When my mother was fresh out of college and working, she had to eat most meals out. She said the waitresses probably hated her, because for (back then), leaving a 10¢ tip on a 60¢ meal would mean that was one less meal that she could afford by the end of the week.

OTOH, back my last year in college, I knew a guy who hung out at the campus coffee house and he and his friend would drag me off to diners after the place closed and he ALWAYS tipped 20% on the grounds that the waitresses would come to recognize him and give him good service.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

in Europe, the shelf price typically includes VAT, (et al).

 

It would be more convenient if the actual price were indicated on the shelf sticker...

Taking that one step further:

 

In Australia, in order to avoid falling foul of regulations, when (ocean liner) cruise operators have in their terms 'mandatory' service charges or 'gratuities' calculated at X% of base prices, they actually list the inclusive prices in their marketing material and booking processes. For example, they can't just advertise, "$900 for a five-night cruise" but then slap 18% on top of that when the passenger goes to settle the bill on the final night of the cruise.

 

The basic principle in play here is that retailers (operating locally in this jurisdiction) must list a single minimum, all-inclusive price that the consumer must pay to acquire the described goods or service and fulfil all the commercial terms and obligations on his/her part. Options and other discretionary spend are excluded from that information requirement, though, so any additional purchases (of drinks, or items from on-board shops, etc.) can be listed at the base prices with a footnote that an additional X% will be invoiced.

[KBeezie]

I've noticed this in feedbacks at time, complaining that the seller accurately noted the price of the listing on the customs form, causing them to pay a hefty tax at customs.

But here's the thing, sellers are legally required to accurately list out the forms, failure to do so can have future packages blocked at customs if they falsify the information on the forms for the customer's benefits. (and it's not required that the seller be familiar with every other countries' tax codes or custom value, that's up to the buyers to be prepared for before making a purchase).

Edited November 24, 2018 by KBeezie

[A Smug Dill]

… complaining that the seller accurately noted the price of the listing on the customs form, causing them to pay a hefty tax at customs.

 

But here's the thing, sellers are legally required to accurately list out the forms,

 

 

I agree, and there is no justifiable reason for overseas sellers to conspire with their customers to 'beat' or 'cheat' the tax system in the jurisdiction in which the latter resides.

 

Just to be clear, I understand why some individual consumers would want to be accommodated, and I don't criticise them for wanting, as long as they acknowledge/accept that (getting) what they want is less important to anyone else than playing by the rules that apply, over which they have no power and no personal say but to which they're subject anyway.

[Astronymus]

Hi HB,

 

Yes. I know what you mean... this is one of the biggest gripes foreign visitors have when they visit the States... in Europe, the shelf price typically includes VAT, (et al).

 

It would be more convenient if the actual price were indicated on the shelf sticker... but then people wouldn't buy as much... which would be terribly upsetting to the merchants.

 

Be well.

 

 

- Anthony

Here even the price per 100g, 100ml or similar has to be indicated on the shelf. Always good to compare regular and special "economy" packs. Sometimes those packs that should save you money are actually more expensive if you break down the numbers.

[jmnav]

Anyone any idea what the legal aspect is for a European buyer buying from a European seller?

 

The general standard is for a professional dealer to ask for VAT at the buyer's rate. Then the seller has the chance to adjust his VAT balance at the end of the imposition period. Basically everything else has their country-to-country petty details (this is supposedly to change as the EU will pass some armonization regulations in the 2019-21 period).

 

Up to know B2C transactions are usually required to show prices VAT-included since a final customer has no chance but to pay it in full, but B2B operations, in the other hand, are not, since the VAT a business pays will be discounted from its tax balance. A usual mid-ground is to show the price with and without VAT on physical stores (at the local rate). But then, VAT percentage changes from country to country (i.e.: German general tax is at 19%, I think, while Spanish is 21%) and from product-class to product-class (usually food, for instance, pays at a lower rate), and what goes in each product class also may vary from country to country (i.e.: a movie theater ticket: in Spain changed its class this past summer and it went from full 21% rate to 10% rate; in France, this same item has been taxed at 5.5% from quite ago). Then, there are exemptions by income volume on what to consider "professional activities" that also change from country to country. And then, there is the practical fact (a windows that shrinks by the day) on the different governments' will and ability to track these kind of transactions and, thus, ask for due taxes (more or less what has happened in past years with international customs mail offices: with the increase of international low volume/low price transactions it has come from "basically nothing gets stopped and taxed" to "basically nothing passes through without scanning" despite no change in regulations).

 

So, regarding e-bay (or other international platforms) the legal path of action from a professional EU vendor to EU final customer has always been the same: ask for VAT at the buyer's rate, ideally "magically" including the proper rate on the on-going price -in practice, due to obvious limitations, marking that "you may pay VAT at your current rate" on the catalogue and then adding the proper rate depending on the destination, and even more practically not asking for VAT at all (and that's what it's changing by the day) in the knowledge that no government was going to prosecute you because lack of ability and because of the will of pushing forward Internet commerce (and the fact that the only VAT lost is the one on the final operation -at seller's loss). The same approach is valid on auctions but, since obviously the final price and the auction's winner locale is not known till its end, the merchant's only recourse is to add the "VAT may be added at the buyer's rate" and then doing so afterwards.

 

Some "borderline" behaviours I've seen is for some sites to stick a fixed VAT for EU buyers (i.e. German sites asking for 19% VAT) when VAT is not fixed -not that I'm going to protest as the proper VAT in my case would be 21% instead of 19% -the differential would be managed by the "intra-EU business activities" part of the vendor's tax declaration.

Edited November 24, 2018 by jmnav

[BaronWulfraed]

But here's the thing, sellers are legally required to accurately list out the forms, failure to do so can have future packages blocked at customs if they falsify the information on the forms for the customer's benefits.

 

Ah yes... Like the "executive pen and sunglasses" I received per the customs declaration sheet -- in reality, the shipment was a 125mW green laser (don't call it a pointer at that power level) and laser safety goggles.