Is It Legal?

[Uncial]

Not quite sure where to put this really, so I will apologize in advance if this is the wrong place. It concerns ebay listings on fountain pens. There are a few sellers who have a considerable turnover in pens on ebay but scrolling down through their listing reveals an unusual detail for European buyers (as far as I can recall they've all been European sellers) asking them to factor in the VAT on the final bidding price of the pen. It seems a little odd to me and I was wondering if it is legal for a company to ask the buyer to pay what the company essentially owes its own government and revenue. I know its a peculiar grey area possibly made difficult with ebay being global but it does feel a little like a company asking the buyer to pay the tax it owes! I tried reading ebay's policy, but surprise, surprise, that isn't covered. Anyone any idea what the legal aspect is for a European buyer buying from a European seller?

[Mech-for-i]

all such VAT type tax ultimately goes to the customer ; if its not as stated, its just factored into the selling price ; and that's ( one of the many reasons ) why VAT is considered a bad kind of tax. I will not repeat the argument as its irrelevant here but yes it is legal in most countries where VAT are introduced.

[Uncial]

In Europe VAT is always included in the price of an item as listed. I don't add it into the price for any other European seller on eBay after I've bought the item.

[A Smug Dill]

I know its a peculiar grey area possibly made difficult with ebay being global but it does feel a little like a company asking the buyer to pay the tax it owes! I tried reading ebay's policy, but surprise, surprise, that isn't covered. Anyone any idea what the legal aspect is for a European buyer buying from a European seller?

I trust eBay has enough of a Legal team to work out that it is OK for eBay as a trading platform to allow such practices by individual sellers, and not be in direct contravention of laws. Of course, you could still choose to spend your money on legal advice and/or representation, if you feel it wrongs the consumer and want to vindicate that sentiment, and challenge the company in court.

 

In Australia, the law requires that shops list Goods and Services Tax inclusive prices (for items that are not GST exempt). Nevertheless, sellers outside Australia operating on eBay continue to list items at GST-exclusive prices. As of 1 July 2018, the Australia Government requires overseas retailers, electronic trading platforms, and even forward-shippers to collect GST on low-value imports. eBay's answer is to simply add a note to listings, in which the items are marked as being outside of Australia, that "GST may apply" or "GST will apply" (I think the actually message has changed a couple of times), and just slap the GST component on in the checkout process.

 

Furthermore, I've bought from UK-based sellers on eBay since that date, and at least one of them 'failed' to adjust the prices and deduct VAT from them, as would be the case if I ordered directly from UK-based online sellers with their own sites. That means I was hit twice by additional expense in the form of taxes, even though that makes no sense from a consumer or 'legal' perspective.

 

My options as a consumer are either to not make purchases if I don't think things are kosher, or put my money towards assuaging my feelings of injustice instead of acquiring more consumer goods for personal enjoyment. I choose the former.

[praxim]

Adding to the comments by A Smug Dill, a person who sells less than (in this country) $75k annually does not need to register for GST. The item you buy overseas from Oz, or here from overseas, may not have GST/VAT on it in the first place but if you buy through a platform like ebay then their turnover is large so they extract and remit GST. One is not always double-taxed on buying from a VAT-style area. If one buys from a fellow FPNer selling pens casually in the Classifieds then of course you are not taxed at all.

[A Smug Dill]

One is not always double-taxed on buying from a VAT-style area.

True. I asked Jo of Bureau Direct in the UK about it specifically, and she said they don't sell enough to Australia annually to be required to collect Australian GST and have no plans to do so; and BD will deduct the VAT component from the listed prices during the checkout process, if the delivery address supplied is in Australia. So, I pay no consumption taxes for such purchases.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that other well-known European or UK-based retailers will add consumption tax to online orders for import into Australia, but Bureau Direct is the only company of whom I specifically asked the question.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Sellers like Penboard, will include VAT, as should all professional sellers. Amateurs don't have to worry about it.

Penboard has two prices, one for the rest of the world and one for Europe.

 

So I think professional sellers need to add the VAT if sold in the EU.

Penboard has a set price so that is easy.

Auctions are harder. I can see them asking for the 19% tax.......but that should be listed. If not, one could ask Ebay.

I only bought from non-shop sellers even if 'professional', and none asked, but that was a while back. I buy in live auctions, where not only the 19% vat is there but the 22% auction cost...........how ever mostly I just have to beat a dealer, so mostly get it cheaper than on the Bay.

[inkstainedruth]

I have seen sellers that will list VAT separately, because US customers are generally not required to pay it (on the grounds that we are not reaping any of the benefits).

My husband and I honeymooned in Nova Scotia, back before Canada's version of VAT, GST, was instituted. At the time, the province had a higher sales tax than some other Canadian provinces (a few years later, when we were in Edmonton Alberta -- which didn't, as I recall, didn't HAVE a provincial sales tax before that -- all the ads on TV we saw said "Buy NOW -- before GST!"). But as Americans, we could have filed paperwork at the border to get the sales tax refunded to us (as not benefitting from it). And we learned that if we stayed in a place with three or fewer rooms (such as a a B& the hosts were not required to charge the tax at all (so guess where we stayed? Especially when -- unlike down here -- the B&B were also less expensive to stay at even before that).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

I have seen sellers that will list VAT separately, because US customers are generally not required to pay it (on the grounds that we are not reaping any of the benefits).

Or simply that the law in the jurisdiction where the seller's enterprise in domiciled does not require VAT to be paid on exports, irrespective of the 'benefits' question. The point, though, is that eBay sellers who could be selling the same product on that platform to anyone in UK, Germany, Japan, Mexico, Australia, Canada, USA, etc. aren't going to make separate listings that are geographically segregated; to them those items are the same items they're prepared to sell for the same net revenue, irrespective of who ends up buying it on the global trading platform.

[bass1193]

Or simply that the law in the jurisdiction where the seller's enterprise in domiciled does not require VAT to be paid on exports, irrespective of the 'benefits' question. The point, though, is that eBay sellers who could be selling the same product on that platform to anyone in UK, Germany, Japan, Mexico, Australia, Canada, USA, etc. aren't going to make separate listings that are geographically segregated; to them those items are the same items they're prepared to sell for the same net revenue, irrespective of who ends up buying it on the global trading platform.

Is VAT a thing down in Oz? I'd hope not considering you all have to pay crazy prices for shipping!

[Honeybadgers]

just be glad you don't have to deal with american taxes. I don't care how bad you think yours are, ours are dumber.

[A Smug Dill]

Is VAT a thing down in Oz? I'd hope not considering you all have to pay crazy prices for shipping!

Our consumption tax is called Goods and Services Tax (GST), and it's effectively the same as Value Added Tax (VAT), Mehrwertsteuer/Umsatzsteuer (MwSt/USt), et cetera in Europe. The current GST rate is 10%, and is payable on most things. There used to be an exemption for personal imports under A$1,000, but since 1 July 2018 laws came into effect to require GST to be charged even for those, unless the overseas retailer is 'small-time' and sells less than A$75,000 annually to Australians.

[Freddy]

American customers are not required to pay VAT...'Tis for European Union.

Never had to pay..if any seller..re any product... insisted on me payin' VAT..

No argument...I walk. Hasn't happened...

Fred

New York City sales tax...8.875%

Nassau County sales tax...8.00%

A bargain compared to EU Vat at 19.00%

Edited November 22, 2018 by Freddy

[ParkerDuofold]

American customers are not required to pay VAT...'Tis for European Union.

Never had to pay..if any seller..re any product... insisted on me payin' VAT..

No argument...I walk. Hasn't happened...

Fred

New York City sales tax...8.875%

Nassau County sales tax...8.00%

A bargain compared to EU Vat at 19.00%

Yes. +1.

 

My state and municipal sales taxes in Jersey are on par with Freddy's city and county taxes... actually, mine are a little higher,... ...but I always breathe a heavy sigh of relief when I click on "shipping to the United States" at Cult Pens.

 

Be well... enjoy life... pay your taxes.

 

 

- Anthony

[Honeybadgers]

Yes. +1.

 

My state and municipal sales taxes in Jersey are on par with Freddy's city and county taxes... actually, mine are a little higher,... ...but I always breathe a heavy sigh of relief when I click on "shipping to the United States" at Cult Pens.

 

Be well... enjoy life... pay your taxes.

 

 

- Anthony

 

our taxes are just so seemingly arbitrary as to how much sales tax will be charged depending on the state, taxes added on after a purchase price (i.e. we pay upwards of 9% extra on almost everything we buy in person that isn't listed on the sale price, which is just annoying mental math)

 

And not to get political, but you have no idea how much I hate having to ask my patients how they plan on paying for this 911 ambulance service they need.

[Freddy]

Yes. +1.

 

My state and municipal sales taxes in Jersey are on par with Freddy's city and county taxes... actually, mine are a little higher,... ...but I always breathe a heavy sigh of relief when I click on "shipping to the United States" at Cult Pens.

 

Be well... enjoy life... pay your taxes.

 

 

- Anthony

And all the services provided by 'em.....Police Fireman Sanitation......et al..Worth every penny....

I recently received a tax break..Didn't ask for it...can't deny it..............It is what it is...capisci......

Fred

[jar]

In the US the taxes can vary between locales considerably with multiple layers of sales tax at the State, County, even City level. There is no uniform/universal taxing system or authority in the US.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Vat is lower if one takes the food away at McDonalds instead of eating on the premises, some foods in supermarkets are only 1/3 - 1/2 normal Vat tax.

That is only one tax, not State, County and City.

Ten-15 years ago the Euro VAT was 16% so it was cheaper to buy my scotch in Germany than in Scotland where they had the 19-20% Vat.

 

In that a Government is there to make the rich richer, no one housewife's a budget and saves, so taxes on the poor must go up.....or the Government fails at it's primary duty.

No, Virginia; it's not yellow rain. It's trickle down.

 

In Germany they have the 'Solie' solidification tax, to bring the DDR up to speed.........they are not going to do away with it, as planned....of course....everyone is still paying WW1 tax on champaign, but what we need is for them to use that tax on W.Germany.....our roads and bridges are in bad shape......................but that makes sense, so it won't be done, the money can buy votes somewhere else.

 

Government of the rich, for the rich, by the rich; paid for by the poor. It is universal....the poor have no tax loopholes made just for them....and if they did, what would they do with the $2.35??

Edited November 22, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Ink Stained Wretch]

just be glad you don't have to deal with american taxes. I don't care how bad you think yours are, ours are dumber.

 

OTOH, there is no U.S. government sales tax . There used to be, but that was long ago. Now sales taxes are much more local.

 

And seeing what people in Europe are paying , the state + local taxes around the U.S.A. are not so bad. Not that I like paying any of them, of course.

 

And a merry Go Off Your Diet Day to everyone in or associated with said U.S.A .

[inkstainedruth]

American customers are not required to pay VAT...'Tis for European Union.

Never had to pay..if any seller..re any product... insisted on me payin' VAT..

No argument...I walk. Hasn't happened...

Fred

New York City sales tax...8.875%

Nassau County sales tax...8.00%

A bargain compared to EU Vat at 19.00%

 

My mother used to get a lot of stuff via mail order from catalogs. And she'd have bloody war with some of the catalogs, because they would charge the NYC tax rate when my family lived about 50 miles away in northern Westchester County, and were not subject to the extra percentages for NYC (and IIRC, places like Yonkers and or Mt. Vernon -- even though they were also in Westchester).

Where we live now, just outside Pittsburgh, there is an extra 1% in Allegheny County (and also in Philadelphia County, at the other end of the state) which is called the RAD (Regional Asset District) on sales tax. It helps to defray the cost of things like museums and I think the Pittsburgh and Philadelphia zoos, and once a year there is a weekend where there is free admission to all county residents for stuff like that.

But PA sales tax is really weird anyway, in what does and does not get sales tax charged: most groceries don't (but fast food and snacks do). Regular clothing and shoes don't (but "luxury" clothing does)and likewise standard clothing fabrics and notions like buttons or zippers don't (but home dec fabrics and "luxury" fabrics -- i.e., stuff like velvet or fabric with metallic threads in it -- do). I used work parttime in a fabric store and it was quite entertaining to watch some of assistant managers argue about whether velveteen (made of cotton) was considered a luxury fabric or not....

I've ordered a few pens from Rolf Thiel at Missing Pens from off his eBay store. Not only am I not charged VAT, but I *also* am paying less for the pens over a US seller because he doesn't have to charge for the Chartpak markup costs.

Although a couple of times recently I've gotten a notice on eBay purchases about PA sales tax....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth