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Pelikan Souveran M805 Lack Of Quality Control

malfunction dysfunction dry nib quality control amazon

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37 replies to this topic

#1 nibtip

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 18:26

Hello,

i bought two PELIKAN M805S both with a fine nib on ama... uk and ama...es within a week.

The black one was in my mailbox less than an hour ago.

One pen, the blue stripped is pretty good, maybe a bit too wet with some sailor inks. That is a normal behaviour with a Pelikan nib.

The other pen, the black one is so dry and unwilling that i have decided to send it back to ama...uk for a refund.

Of course i flushed carefully the black pen, etc...before inking it. Furthermore Sailor inks are very wet inks as can be seen on the photo, at least with the blue stripped one.

Return cost is from my pocket (about 10-12€). Return package has to be stamped, etc...

It is not the end of the world, i will soon forget it.

I just wanted to share my experience.

I hope i have been useful to some.

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Edited by inkking, 21 November 2018 - 18:31.


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#2 nibtip

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 18:30

Picture rotated



#3 minddance

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 01:56

the writing sample of the blue is what I consider normal and would accept. the black, no.

#4 Honeybadgers

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 06:17

While it's unfortunate you had issues, the nature of the beast here is that every single fountain pen mass manufacturer, no matter how high end or otherwise, will have occasional pens slip through the QC cracks. Thusfar the best I've seen are pilot and sailor, but I'd consider platinum an exceptional nib maker and yet I've gotten about three dud 3776's that required replacement.

 

Just contact pelikan. They will make it right. That's what customer service is for.


Edited by Honeybadgers, 22 November 2018 - 06:17.

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#5 nibtip

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 08:14

While it's unfortunate you had issues, the nature of the beast here is that every single fountain pen mass manufacturer, no matter how high end or otherwise, will have occasional pens slip through the QC cracks. Thusfar the best I've seen are pilot and sailor, but I'd consider platinum an exceptional nib maker and yet I've gotten about three dud 3776's that required replacement.

 

Just contact pelikan. They will make it right. That's what customer service is for.

 

I can only agree with your general observation about QC flaws.

Concerning the 3 big Japanese pens: yes, especially Sailor. With the exception that QC on my K.O.P. s, my LE Bungubox and Pen House are much higher than the normal range.

I also agree about Platinum. The only one i keep is a Oshino purchased from Pent house. That is a keeper.

My 2 Nakayas have been double or triple checked  and tuned to my desires by Nakaya and Nibs. They are perfect.

About contacting Pelikan, it would be chimeric, since it is an amazon purchase, i have to send it back to them.

My best Pelikan nib is the medium nib of my M805 raden royal platinum. It has been shrewdly checked and tuned by a Japanese nibmeister mandated by Pelikan as attested on a certificat that came in the box.



#6 SenZen

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 16:52

Sorry to hear about this, I'm not trying to excuse them but this left me thinking; maybe it's a question of expectations and terminology. I would call this the pen's character and how the brand can try to ensure some consistency, quality control would imply a catastrophic failure like leaks or defects. What made me think about it is my Sailor Professional Gear, which has always worked fine, but would make Tsuyu Kusa look really pale and boring, like every other pen I have; as I was about to give up I decided to gently press on the tines, and it made that ink look spectacular, much more saturated, while remaining smooth. I'm not suggesting you tried this on your Pelikan, I have no idea how it would react (even though I have an 18k m600), but I would call this the pen's character rather than a failure.

 

On the other hand someone might actually be looking for a Pelikan that makes ink come out lighter, it took me a long time to find the right pen for Ama Iro, Ajisai and even Kon Peki looks nice, with Lamy Studios and EF nibs. Hopefully the replacement will meet your expectations.


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#7 A Smug Dill

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 00:03

On the other hand someone might actually be looking for a Pelikan that makes ink come out lighter, it took me a long time to find the right pen for Ama Iro, Ajisai and even Kon Peki looks nice, with Lamy Studios and EF nibs.

 

Looking at the photo of the writing sample, I'd say the nib on the black M805 is what I'd consider acceptable (as in good) for a Fine nib, and the fact that the writing shows no skips or scratchiness – that would be evident in the coating or the fibres of the paper being visibly damaged – but brings out the base sepia colour of the ink beautifully, I'll personally call that a better nib than the one on the blue M805.

 

If one of my Fine nibs wrote like the one on the blue M805, that pen would mostly likely be given away carelessly to someone I think don't care as much about fountain pens, ink and handwriting, after a long stay in my desk drawer unused.


Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

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#8 Honeybadgers

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 01:30

 

I can only agree with your general observation about QC flaws.

Concerning the 3 big Japanese pens: yes, especially Sailor. With the exception that QC on my K.O.P. s, my LE Bungubox and Pen House are much higher than the normal range.

I also agree about Platinum. The only one i keep is a Oshino purchased from Pent house. That is a keeper.

My 2 Nakayas have been double or triple checked  and tuned to my desires by Nakaya and Nibs. They are perfect.

About contacting Pelikan, it would be chimeric, since it is an amazon purchase, i have to send it back to them.

My best Pelikan nib is the medium nib of my M805 raden royal platinum. It has been shrewdly checked and tuned by a Japanese nibmeister mandated by Pelikan as attested on a certificat that came in the box.

 

When you're getting into the price where a pen should be hand tuned, I would agree that the m805 should be. Any pen north of $300 should have had a human spend at least 5-30 minutes tuning it to make sure it's exactly right. The only real followup problem that can happen is with feeds - all of these pens are dip tested, which can mask a feed problem. I had to wait about a week for my custom TWSBI from Pablo at FPnibs because he made the nib the day I ordered it, but spent a week with the nib in the pen using it just to make sure no problems arose from his cutting of the feed.


Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#9 alanshutko

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 01:57

 

Looking at the photo of the writing sample, I'd say the nib on the black M805 is what I'd consider acceptable (as in good) for a Fine nib, and the fact that the writing shows no skips or scratchiness – that would be evident in the coating or the fibres of the paper being visibly damaged – but brings out the base sepia colour of the ink beautifully, I'll personally call that a better nib than the one on the blue M805.

 

 

 

I can see your point, but for me, the blue fine definitely looks closer to the usual Pelikan fine for me.  Pelikan have their own ideas on nib sizing.



#10 A Smug Dill

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 02:17

Pelikan have their own ideas on nib sizing.

 

 

Hence why I stopped myself from getting a Pelikan M200 to try out, in spite of the attractive pricing Cult Pens was/is offering – I just don't trust Pelikan to deliver the 'right' stroke widths for me even if I ordered an EF nib.

 

If I was after line variation, then this (cropped from inkking's photo above) would be what would please me coming from a nib:

fpn_1542939440__inkkings_pelikan_m805_wr

 

Those instances look almost like they were produced by a stub nib, but only reduced in scale to my preferred handwriting size.


Edited by A Smug Dill, 23 November 2018 - 02:20.

Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

Don't think 'cos I understand, I care
Don't think 'cos I'm talking, we're friends

—'6 Underground' by Sneaker Pimps


#11 scratchofapen

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 19:00

Well, i had that one or two times with pelikans too. It was easily resolved by lifting the nibtines once from the feed. It may be something with the kind of assembly, the plastic feed what so ever. Gently pull the tines appart as you would do to widen the slit a bit BUT NOT with so much force to actually do it! This moves a large surface between nib and feed once and seems to surpass something i assume can be called „initial stickiness“ (i really don‘t know how to describe it propperly any other way). I am quite confident that this is what causes a pen to have been „run in“ to flow propperly for several fills as it is described sometimes by users. This resolved flow issues with several new pens that use plastic feeds for me, including pelikans. I don‘t remember where i have that from, this or an other penforum....

#12 Honeybadgers

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 20:14

I doubt you'd like a pelikan without a regrind, dill. My 205 EF is very wet and closer to an F.


Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#13 A Smug Dill

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 23:52

My 205 EF is very wet and closer to an F.


Thanks for the advice! The handwriting sample from inkking's blue M805 above looks to me like it came out of a 'fine' Sharpie marker or some such, whereas I can see line variation and shading in the writing (in English!) and lines that came out of the black M805. Couple the latter with an ink such as Diamine Jalur Gemilang – or, I suppose, Sailor Shikiori yamadori – that is apt to display sheen on coated paper such as Clairefontaine/Rhodia, and I can just imagine how attractive the results would be.

(For a change, I'm not even bringing into consideration how the pens would perform when writing in other languages as well.)
Let's give each other due respect, and approach discussion rigorously. We're all peers and equals here as fellow hobbyists, with common interests in the acquisition and use of fountain pens, but not necessarily any shared values, and no obligation to offer each other moral support for one's narrative or position.
 

Don't think 'cos I understand, I care
Don't think 'cos I'm talking, we're friends

—'6 Underground' by Sneaker Pimps


#14 Honeybadgers

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 00:14

I mean, with a nib regrind, I bet you'd like them. They are soft and springy and lovely and so well made. I also recommend the vintage 140's with an XF semiflex nib. very well made and reliable pens, small, light, smooth and the XF nibs are really very fine.

 

Even the m205's steel nib is quite springy. If you'd have marked it 14k I'd have never known.


Edited by Honeybadgers, 24 November 2018 - 00:15.

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#15 ENewton

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 16:41

I also recommend the vintage 140's with an XF semiflex nib. very well made and reliable pens, small, light, smooth and the XF nibs are really very fine.

 

 

 

My 140 XF is certainly on the dry side, but when I bought it, the seller made a strong point that I should try several pens, because they were finished by hand and would vary from one to the next.



#16 Honeybadgers

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 22:44

I would agree that the XF 140's tend towards dryness until it flexes but mine never skips.


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#17 ENewton

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 01:17

I would agree that the XF 140's tend towards dryness until it flexes but mine never skips.

 

Mine doesn't skip either, but there is a sense of pushing the pen along, even with Waterman ink, which is supposed to run relatively wet.  I don't apply enough pressure to flex the nib so will probably need to find a more lubricated ink for the pen.



#18 Honeybadgers

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 02:51

The old saying goes - if it won't write well with waterman blue, the problem is with the pen.


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#19 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 19:23

Pelikan makes a nib that is wet because they make a dry ink.

Japanese inks are on the whole from my understanding wet.

That is the same ink???????

 

What I see is, is the top F is a F-EF on the narrow side of tolerance and the bottom one is F-M on the wide side of tolerance.

 

Everyone has their own idea about sizing....all companies are different....and I'd believe a 1.0 nib to be 1.1 to 0.9 as normal tolerance.

Modern Pelikan outside the 200 is 1/2 a width wider than semi-vintage or vintage nibs due to the double kugal/ball tipping so folks who hold a fountain pen like a BP or RB don't have to learn how to hold a fountain pen.

Takes three seconds to adjust the black pen to make it wetter.

Why not just send it back to be made wetter?

 

 

Really would like to see what a 4001 dry ink would look like....an ink the pens were designed to use.

Are the Japanese inks as wet or wetter than Waterman?

 

Ron Zorn tolerance

Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 27 November 2018 - 19:24.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#20 nibtip

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 21:03

I had examined both nibs under a magnifier, and i am pretty sure that that they were alike. Tines gap, etc...

The problem obviously (with the black Pelikan, that i have already sent back) does not involve the nib.

It is either the feeder that does not convoy properly the ink to the tines or more probably the contact or the distance between the feeder and the nib that is defective.

When i decided to expose the problem on FPN it is not fortuitously that i choose a juicy wet Sailor ink.

As a matter of fact, my Blue M805 F Pelikan is hardly compatible with very wet inks like Sailor or Iroshizuku.

Most Sailor inks (not all) are wet to very wet thus perfect for... Sailor pens and Japanese pens as a whole.

Also wet is not the same thing as lubricated.

And paper is just as important. I mean good paper: Tomoe, Midori MD, eventually Clairefontaine. They  all behave differently.

The comparison above was done on rhodia paper. Compared to Tomoe paper, the line is constricted by about 0.05mm. 

(i regularly do this kind of testing).


Edited by inkking, 27 November 2018 - 21:04.






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