Holding The Pen When Writing Spencerian

[codeo]

Hello,

 

I've found many resources saying that to write with the arm, you should not rest any part of the hand on the paper except the fleshy part of the forearm and the nails of the ring and little finger, and that the top of the hand should be parallel to the desktop. However, I am extremely uncomfortable in this position, and I cannot write the details of the small letters with proper control like this. However, I can write decently with my arm when I tilt my hand right and rest the side of my little finger after the last joint on the desktop. Is this acceptable? Any tips on writing this properly?

 

I would also like to know the difference between Ornamental Penmanship, Spencerian and Business Penmanship. I know that Spencerian has a simplified Business Writing form, and a calligraphic hand, but I'm confused by their names, whether they were originally designed separately or are variants of one original script, and some resources on each.

 

Thanks.

[ReadyFireAim]

Nobody does arm writing. Not even professional penmen.

That was some idea that got started and won't go away.

 

There were some ornamental penmen that flourished with arm movements and then went back to finger style writing like Madarasz & others.

I wouldn't recommend even trying it until you have solid flex writing skills.

 

Write 2 or 3 letters and move your hand...Then write 2 or 3 more.

 

Don't get wrapped up in vintage gold nib pen nonsense either.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[Inky.Fingers]

Yes you can do it. I didnt believe it at first and seems to take forever. I managed after 6 months of intense 2 hrs per day. I used www.ziller.com manual and a Biro. You can use Bic or a nice fine or xf fountain pen. Dedication to making changes in your penmanship is all that is takes.

 

BP is the unflourished form of OP. You really need to excell in BP first then get a dip pen for OP.

 

Good Luck

 

Monoline BP

Flourishef Spencerian == OP

Edited October 22, 2018 by _InkyFingers

[codeo]

Thank you, all! InkyFingers, I read in the Spencerian theory book that you should use a combination of finger and arm movement to write. How does one write the small letters with the fingers? I seem to just flick it down and create a sharp angled line because my hand does not help to anchor my fingers to the table.

[ardene]

I'm not Inkyfingers, but the whole idea is to move the wrist rather than exclusively the fingers. All calligraphy scripts are a choreography of arm movement, wrist movement and finger support for this or that detail. Look at the wrist moment here:

 

[ReadyFireAim]

Look at the wrist moment here:

 

Paul Antonio is a profesional scribe & phenomenally talented penman.

 

Most who try flex writing give up in under 100 hours after being totally frustrated because they can't make anything that looks nice.

 

My recommendation is to NOT try and write like this at first.

Anchor the heel of your hand firmly, write a few letters and then move your hand.

[ardene]

 

My recommendation is to NOT try and write like this at first.

Anchor the heel of your hand firmly, write a few letters and then move your hand.

 

Perhaps you're right. My experience has been with broad italic nibs, nothing of the Spencerian or Copperplate sort, but as far as I know some wrist movement along with the arm is generally advised. In calligraphic styles where there is no requirement for flex the wrist does even more of the work than the forearm.

[ReadyFireAim]

 

Perhaps you're right.

I think we are both correct.

Spencer wrote with a quill in his formative years and likely never saw an oblique holder until later in life.

He died in1864, almost 50 years before the height of ornamental penmanship.

 

We have so few interested in this form of penmanship nowadays that it hurts me to see them struggle with a nearly impossible challenge and give up.

You can "finger write" beautifully with an inexpensive flex fountain pen.

If after 300-500 hours of practice you want to try open hand flourishing, by all means do it.

You will still have your beautiful "stop & go" form of flex writing if it proves too difficult.

 

You didn't waste your time learning it improperly because the form of letters, spacing, height, baseline, slant and mastery of flex is more important than technique at this stage.

You can change your technique but your "eye" is very-very hard to get right.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Nail-Bender

[codeo]

We have so few interested in this form of penmanship nowadays that it hurts me to see them struggle with a nearly impossible challenge and give up.

You can "finger write" beautifully with an inexpensive flex fountain pen.

If after 300-500 hours of practice you want to try open hand flourishing, by all means do it.

You will still have your beautiful "stop & go" form of flex writing if it proves too difficult.

 

You didn't waste your time learning it improperly because the form of letters, spacing, height, baseline, slant and mastery of flex is more important than technique at this stage.

You can change your technique but your "eye" is very-very hard to get right.

 

I agree. I've been writing much better by planting my wrist than my friend who is trying to learn the traditional grip.

[Inky.Fingers]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

 

Easy way out is always easy.

 

Wrist as the folcrum, is a great idea. You can write single letter, two letters and even three. It gets more difficult writing 4+ letters.

With such a small radius, you will need to use your fingers too.

 

Using the meaty flesh on the forearm gives you a much larger radius of movements. Learning to balance the pen, gliding with the pinky nails is challenge. If you follow Ziller manual, instructions in details, you will get it...tops at 6 months.

 

You see, there is no magic pills. If you really read the original Spencerian manual in details, starting on the very first page, it would make sense.

 

I dont know if you just wanted to improve your handwriting or become a calligrapher...eithet case, put in the time to gain the prize.

[cellmatrix]

to the OP, when writing spencerian, or its monoline cousin: business penmanship, you really need to get the side of your hand off of the paper and just use your 4th and 5th fingernails to glide your hand across the paper. Once you practice a while and get to the point that your hand is consistently off the paper, (it took me a many months) you will eventually notice that your writing is better and you will feel 'in the zone'. Also, while you really need to primarily write using your shoulder/arm muscles, using your fingers a bit can be helpful such as making loops. Here is some great advice from master penman J.J. Bailey, about this:

 

http://www.zanerian.com/Bailey_files/image005.jpg

[Mario90]

F W Tamblyn’s Home Instructor in Penmanship

Does anyone has this book? and if yes,can you upload the images from the book of arm movement+hold of pen+position of paper and body etc?

thank you.

[Inky.Fingers]

www.zillers.com. Get the book. It is still under copyright protection.