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Why Use Forgery-Proof Inks?


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#1 tisquinn

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 14:52

Hi, all!

 

I'm curious what folks use forgery proof inks for. While I'm sure there are lots of applications, I can't think of many. I'm a Ph.D. student, so the only forgery-worthy things I write are checks. For much of what I write, I care that it is water resistant and that it last for years, but extreme forgery resistance is gratuitous.

 

So what do you use your most resilient inks for? Does anyone use Noodler's Warden inks because of their "combination lock" properties? I'm so curious!

 

Cheers! 



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#2 XYZZY

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 15:32

I'm curious about that as well.

 

I'm now semi-retired and do bookkeeping at my wife's companies.  Part of that is depositing checks using a check scanner we rent from the bank.  I think people would be shocked to learn how painfully insecure the check processing system is.  Maybe it used to be more secure 100 years ago when all checks were "scanned" by a human teller at a local bank who knew you and remembered your signature.  But today?  No, the scanner can't tell the difference between indelible ink and pencil, and they only thing they care about is the $ amount, account number, and routing number.  Nothing else matters.  That's probably a reasonable business tradeoff:  the expense of paying attention to the date, payee, signature, endorsement are much greater than just having support people deal with the complaints when things go wrong.

 

Or to summarize that:  the check processing system and it's ability to detect/fix problems is extremely dependent on most people being honest.  If that assumption were to suddenly become false then the whole thing would unravel.

 

Also, I've heard Nathan Tardif mention that an advantage of his inks varying batch-to-batch is that they could be forensically tested and proven different, helping to identify forgeries.  I wonder if that's been tested in an actual trial?  Or if it's just an untested assumption used to rationalize quality control.



#3 wallylynn

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 16:07

My phone app takes a picture to deposit checks!

My understanding is that forged checks are more an inconvenience than an actual problem. Checks can be easily reversed (not necessarily for free, and you're out money while investigation takes place). If you find extra money in your account because someone mis-entered the wrong account number, don't spend it. It will disappear and you'll be on the hook for the money.


It's also why most scams ask you to wire transfer cash that cannot be reversed. Same with credit cards.

#4 eharriett

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 23:53

I write insurance applications.  There's a real issue with forgery and accusations of it.  Noodlers forgery-proof inks are an excellent safety measure  I use Legal Lapis for much of it.  I'd prefer to use Whaleman's Sepia, but that ink has never met a pen it could not clog, damage, or permanently destroy.



#5 wallylynn

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 14:15

Can I ask how the forgeries are performed? I don't expect them to alter the documents, I expect them to make a duplicate, and pass it off as original. Scan, edit, print new and improved document, sign with ballpoint.

#6 Karmachanic

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 15:05

You want instruction on how to forge documents? :yikes: Wrong forum.


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#7 Astron

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 19:48

I still can't believe America uses checks in 2018.


» Oh, yeah. Oooh, ahhh, that's how it always starts. But then later there's running and... and screaming. «

#8 ErrantSmudge

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 22:07

I suspect few people use "forgery resistant" inks for their intended purpose.  As far as I can tell, this was a product category created by Nathan Tardiff to address the needs of an imaginary market.


Edited by ErrantSmudge, 13 October 2018 - 22:09.


#9 TSherbs

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 23:21

My only need for permanent inks is the outside of mail envelopes. I have no need for forgery protection, and no other need for permanence. I have no interest in preserving my writings; they are as impermanent as I.

#10 Lloyd

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 04:50

I write insurance applications.  There's a real issue with forgery and accusations of it.  Noodlers forgery-proof inks are an excellent safety measure  I use Legal Lapis for much of it.  I'd prefer to use Whaleman's Sepia, but that ink has never met a pen it could not clog, damage, or permanently destroy.

I, and apparently many others, never thought about the need for forgery protection related to anything other than bank checks..which are nearly archaic.  As far as I'm concerned, your post validates the need for such inks for a segment of the population.  No one is required to use it but, clearly, it is nearly essential for some non-imaginary market.


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#11 eharriett

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 05:56

Can I ask how the forgeries are performed? I don't expect them to alter the documents, I expect them to make a duplicate, and pass it off as original. Scan, edit, print new and improved document, sign with ballpoint.

 

I'm not sure how others view it, but in my business, there's genuine concern for altering letters, washing away ink, and white out.  I grant you, permanent ink does not solve all those issues, but it can solve some.  Simply using a fountain pen can solve the alteration to letters.  Unlike ballpoint inks, even a blue or a black is different depending on whom th manufacturer is.

 

I still can't believe America uses checks in 2018.

 

I would have agreed with you until I got into my current career.  I work with the age 65+ market.  And while a lot of them are computer savvy,  even more of them are not.  I know if you listen to the tech industry, they love to say how tech savvy older people are.  But personal interaction says that isn't the case.  And even for those that can and even do use a computer, they really do not like to for certain sensitive matters, and money is one of them.  We are at a point in the world where both old and new technologies are used concurrently.  That will change, but that's where we are today.  This whole forum is a good example.  We are communicating with computers about a tool which is obsolete in every respect.

 

I, and apparently many others, never thought about the need for forgery protection related to anything other than bank checks..which are nearly archaic.  As far as I'm concerned, your post validates the need for such inks for a segment of the population.  No one is required to use it but, clearly, it is nearly essential for some non-imaginary market.

 

The strangest part of this is it isn't necessary for many aspects of the industry.  Insurance is among the first to adopt new technologies, accept alternative lifestyles, and generally allow non-conformism.  In the type of product I write, I usually have a choice to do it electronically or on paper.  However, see previous comments regarding how seniors like to do business.  So I have to be flexible.  When I can pull out my Surface or iPad, I do.  But if they are uncomfortable, out comes the paper.  And here is where it gets tricky.  Some companies allow me to fax it in.  While others require the original.  In either case, the original must retained for a time for legal purposes.  No one wants to question a decimal point for a premium, or a signature by the son (with III) signing for the father (with II).  These aren't issues you deal with every day, and carefully working with people generally avoids it all, but you still have to be prepared.  Fountain pens help, and special property fountain pens help even more.

 

Here's the easiest rundown of what I use:

 

If it is just a signature, I use Noodlers Aircorp Blue-Black.  It isn't permanent, but the color is not going to be duplicated by anything or anyone except another fountain pen user.  I'm safe.

If it is an application with info: Noodlers Legal Lapis.  Looks almost the same as Aircorp Blue Black, but it isn't going to come off.

Envelopes and checks: Diamine Registrar's Blue Black.  Genuine Iron Gall ink I have in a safety pen.  In winter, more than a few envelopes wind up in snow here.  So this makes sure the writing survives (think I'm paranoid?  I'm not).

 

I of course do a lot more for personal stuff.  But for business, that's what I use.  Add in Diamine Imperial Purple as my company's color if I'm sending a quick note to someone, and that's the business side of inks for me.  Of course, four shoeboxes and one large bankers box of ink says I use a lot more when I am not working, too.



#12 TSherbs

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 11:48

Eharriet, which of those inks that you use for permanence feathers least?

#13 eharriett

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 16:22

Eharriet, which of those inks that you use for permanence feathers least?

 

They all feather, even the non-permenant ones, on forms if they have to be provided by the company.  Honestly no one has noticed.  Even my partner who has an eye for those things doesn't notice or say anything about it.  Cheap paper, press paper, I dunno, but if I don't want feathering, I'll bring a ballpoint.  I really only have to use the paper provided me by companies if they barcode the pages -- something I think most are getting away from.  None of them feather if I am able to print the application myself.  I use a bit better paper in my printers.  Technically, it costs a little bit more, but not as much as you might think in the grand scheme of things.  It has the dual purpose of lessening any feathering issues (I'll still get it if I use BSB -- which is NOT a work ink for me) and being a stiffer, whiter paper gives a nicer, cleaner, more professional presentation.

 

I also changed my printer from a laserjet to an Epson Ecotank inkjet.  For several reasons.  But one of them is it produces a cleaner page in my opinion (the other reason: I got really, really, REALLY sick and tired of having a printer disable itself when it told me it thought it was out of toner.  Now I can see my ink levels and refill as necessary.  It will run itself dry if I want it to).

 

And if you are curious: HP Bright White Inkjet paper 24 lb is what I use.  Yes, if you compare it to the price of bulk office paper it is more.  One of the benefits of company ownership is I get to choose on what I scrimp and what I splurge.  This is a splurge.



#14 wallylynn

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 17:28

Eharriet, thanks for the peek into your work.

#15 XYZZY

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 18:06

I still can't believe America uses checks in 2018.

 

They're uncommon enough that it stands out when somebody ahead of you in the grocery line writes a check.



#16 XYZZY

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 18:13

@eharriet:  thanks for the insights.  That's very interesting.  

 

From your descriptions, it sounds like your main concern is confirming authenticity of originals, more so than preventing people from altering.  Is that correct?



#17 BaronWulfraed

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 18:24

And here I sit using the computer to address my Christmas envelopes (well, not at this moment, haven't ordered them yet)... And to write the checks for the monthly bills (given how much check processing is now optical, I don't even worry about VersaCheck's FUD about putting MICR inks in my printer).

 

I prefer to use checks as it means:

  • I see the exact amount when entering into Quicken,
  • I get a few days mail-delay to transfer more money into the account should it run low

I do have one bill out auto-pay (and paperless -- which together nets something like a $10 discount); but it is a pain each month (for some reason my computer chokes trying to access the web site to retrieve the PDF statement; I have to access using the cellphone, download the PDF, and then email it to myself). I can't just program Quicken with an auto-entry for this bill since the amount varies each month (for trivial reasons -- for all I know they add a penny for each day of rain). And I have to make sure I have enough in the account to cover the <uncertain> amount during the week it comes due.

 

For the checkbook I carry -- I'll admit it doesn't get much use. I think I used two handwritten checks in the last year (and they are getting expensive -- I remember when I used to get 10 books of duplicating checks for around $8; now they ship 3 book for closer to $20). What I do go through is check registers! I use double line entry, and with all the computer printed checks along with all the EFT/ATM card activity I can fill a register is 6 months.


Edited by BaronWulfraed, 14 October 2018 - 18:58.


#18 TSherbs

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 20:31

I was curious about the feathering for my own purposes. I have never tried any of those inks.

#19 inkstainedruth

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 20:34

A friend of mine used to do custom "collectible" cards of people for the organization we both belong to.  It was sort of a joke, and started as a fundraiser (she and her mother used to pack them up with chocolate frogs, since she's a big Harry Potter fan.  Not sure if they were inkjet or laser printed, but I'm guessing the former. 

She did one of my husband and the card had an accident with a open purse-size bottle of hand sanitizer....  :wallbash: 

This is why *I* still use hand-written checks for paying bills (although at the grocery store I'm more likely to be using a credit card, unless it's a small enough amount that paying cash is easier.

And what eharriett said about the elderly not necessarily trusting computers is right -- some of them probably have memories of the Great Depression (I suspect that's why when my mom died, my dad gave me something like a dozen un-opened bottles of laundry detergent she had bought "on sale".  And why another friend had to go through EVERY book in her mother's house after her mother died because her mother stuck money in between pages randomly....  And with all the stories on the news about identity theft and hackers getting credit card information?  Sometimes the "improvements" aren't so much....  

Every time I have a problem with my laptop and have to call Apple, they end up being subjected to the same litany:  "I have a 1937 Parker Vacumatic Red Shadow Wave.  It's a lower-end model and didn't have the same warranties as the top-tier Pearl models).  It cost me a fraction of what my laptop cost.  The only "maintenance" or "upgrades" I've had to do for [now] over 3 years is to refill it with ink when it runs dry or gets low (Waterman Mysterious Blue).  It's better looking, more ergonomic, fits in my pocket... AND CAN'T BE HACKED...."

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#20 Fuzzy_Bear

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 02:55

Ask Amberlea. Lawyer. Used in a court case.
The glory of the young is their strength; the gray hair of experience is the splendor of the old.






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