Nib Descriptors

[Jaywalker]

First, I'll tell a short story then I'll ask a question.

 

I have few fountain pens but use primarily the Parker 51. It works for me and I have no reason to stop using it. However, a few years ago at a then-existent Paradise Pens the counter lady inked a Montblanc 146 for me and I test wrote it. My, oh my, I liked that nib, and even a few years later I recall the memory if not the specifics.

 

I'd appreciate some help in articulating what I felt. I feel no springiness in the Parker, but I recall there was some in the M 146. What other terms would be typical in comparing the two nibs, both "M"-marked? If I know the terms I can research them properly, and if I know which apply to which nib that would go a long way to helping me learn.

 

Thank you.

[A Smug Dill]

At a guess, you'd be looking along the lines of 'flex' (which, unfortunately, many users seem to have their fixed ideas of what that means, even though their interpretation may not align with others'), 'soft' and 'snapback'. Some nibs are 'nails' that are resistant to flexing, or otherwise being elastically deformed, when put under pressure; others will take X amount of pressure to exhibit flex, and there is a limit to how far it will flex before being inelastically deformed (after which it won't automatically return to its original/regular shape, however long you wait).

 

'Snapback', which I interpret as the speed/rate at which a nib that is elastically deformed returns to its normal shape at rest, once the user relieves the pressure he/she puts on the nib, affects people perception of whether a nib is a 'flex nib' or just 'soft'.

[Inky.Fingers]

Generally speaking P51 is a great nail to write with. The hooded nib cannot be flexed, at least I havent seen one.

 

The 146 is an open nib (half exposed) pen. This allows for some flex. As Bo Bo Olson will tell you, modern pens are mostly nail, some are semi-flex (with a moderate pressure).

 

P51 are for all users...weather you write like a ballpoint (moderate or heavy) or glide like a calligrapher (feather weight to moderate).

 

Of course you could just experience a very smooth nib on some really nice paper with the right ink.

 

If your P51 was as tuned as the 146, with the same ink and paper, perhaps you would think different.

[Driften]

The "M" on both nibs just means Medium and has nothing to do with the softness of the nib. Heck not all pens with M nibs write the same width. Sailor marks nibs with a "H-" to show they are hard and some companies put a "S" in front of the nibs line width to indicate it being "Soft". Mostly nibs are not marked as to how hard, soft, or flexible they are.

[SoulSamurai]

From what I've seen some of the terms typically used when describing nibs include:

soft

springy

flexible

hard

nail

smooth

feedback

resistance

"pencil-like"

scratchy

wet

dry

"sweet spot"

 

A few points: feedback is the sensation you get from the nib as you write; it can be scratchy, but you can have non-scratchy feedback. Some people like a bit of feedback, some not so much. Some nibs' feedback is similar to the sensation of writing with a pencil. Resistance refers to, well, how easily the tip moves across paper. You can have a smooth nib that still has resistance, and again resistance can be a good thing (personally I find that too little resistance can make my handwriting worse as the nib flies about in a less controlled fashion, though the weight of the pen could be a factor here as well).

 

Of course tastes vary, and the ink and paper can have a significant effect on the experience as well.

[Jaywalker]

Thank you all - this is exactly what I wanted to see.

 

Of course, after all this time I don't remember what ink or paper she was using, but I generally use Black n Red, though I'm looking for something better.

 

I could use a little clarification. In general use are "springy" and "flexible" reasonably synonymous? If I want a writing experience similar to the Montblanc 146 should I then be looking for a "Semi-flexible" nib?

[Inky.Fingers]

Generally speaking...

 

Springy is referred to the ability to spring back. So a Japanese nib, Pilot, soft fine nib is springy.

 

Flexible have two meaning. We often relate to the ability of the pen to flex and provide shaded writing by the spreading of the thines.

 

The other meaning of the flex is the same as springy..weather providing for shaded writing or not.

 

I suspect you coming from P51, writing with a nail that is, any open nib pen would provide this experience.

 

Good luck with your exploration.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Your P-51 is a nail, like most Parkers of that era. The next era's P-75 is a semi-nail.I crashed my head against a real stone wall to come up with some definitions.

A nail will give you 1 X tine width, unless you bend the hell out of the nib and ruin it..there have been enough jack hammered ball point users that have even achieve that.

....on rare occasions some one will show up with one that is not a nail....just to prove nothing is absolute, (As far as I now the old regular flex, that most companies had had as regular issue...so called regular flex. But as far as I know not often by Parker who turned to nail only early))

Then comes semi-nail if well mashed will go to 2X tine spread vs a light down stroke.

Regular flex, semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex are in a 3 X tine spread set.

Wether a soft Pilot is regular flex...I don't know and it seems most Pilot users don't either. I don't think it's semi-flex unless it's one of the rarer factory modified nibs; those I've been assured by a good solid poster are semi-flex.

I think folks should work up the flex ladder.In that was what I did; luckily. So I had an idea of what flex a pen should have by maker and era.

What ever you don't go jumping into the deep end of the pool with a superflex nib with out water wings.

There are good respected posters who jumped into the deep end of the pool and when revived ran to nails. Nothing I can do to try to at least convince them to try even regular flex...much less the semi-flex I like; has convinced them to stray from a rigid manifold /nail nib.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Jaywalker]

Thank you for your help. I'll start a new topic for specific pen suggestions, excluding superflex-type pens.

[Driften]

The 146 doesn't not a soft or flex nib, it's just not a nail. The 146 is a great pen and I have two of them I bought used from a FPN member. Many pens have a similar softness to the nib. Be careful of 18k gold nibs they tend to spring easier than 14k gold. My Pilot 823 with a normal gold nib that is very similar to my 146. You could try one of those. The steel nibs on Pelikan m20x pens have a good feel. The other Pelikan gold nib are harder than these steel ones. If you want to experiment with softer nibs Pilot pens with SF/SFM/SM/SB are a good place to start. They will give you a little more spread than what is on a 146.

 

In general steel nibs from Jowo and Bock are nails. They are good nibs, just don't expect line variation from them. They also make great nibs for stubs and cursive italic grinds.

[Bo Bo Olson]

MB..I have a semi-flex 234 1/2 Deluxe and a maxi-semi-flex on a medium-large 146.. from the '50-60s.

A regular flex on a Large 146 '70-80's according to the feed.

 

And I have a modern Virginia Woolf with what I think of as a Springy nib....good tine bend but only 2 X tine spread. As I understand the Falcon has if not modified. The Lamy Imporium, has a nib that bends more than my MB but sigh cubed is only 2 X tine spread....so close but no cigar....if It went out to 3X I'd call that a semi-flex.

 

It depends on which era a pen is from for what one can expect in it's nib.

[Jaywalker]

In this link Siv mentions a preference for a "softer" nib as opposed to a "flex" nib. Is it possible to articulate the difference?

[BaronWulfraed]

I suspect the main difference is that a flex nib is supposed to spread on application of pressure, allowing line variation.

 

Soft vs Hard probably comes down to the behavior on the paper -- a soft may give some rather than digging into the paper surface. But to my knowledge I only have three officially "soft" nibs: and SB, SM, and SEF (all on Pilot/Namiki "Falcon" models -- and yes, I do have a Falcon with Namiki markings).

 

I've discovered I have one nib that I'd willingly call "flex": an old copper "late model" Osmiroid "copperplate" nib (by "late model" I refer to a calligraphy set where the nibs are integral to the section, and one swaps out entire section to change nib; a la the Sheaffer calligraphy sets; not the older screw-in nibs). With this nib, I could produce line variation without feeling like I was trying to cut a groove in the paper.

 

I do have a set of Noodlers pens with their so-called "flex" nibs (unmodified, I need to grind the wings on the spares to experiment), along with a MonteVerde with the "OmniFlex" nib. Taking into account the amount of pressure I need to apply to get any flex out of these I'd only consider them semi-flex. I just ran the set on a 3x5 card on my computer desk, and did see some variation. In a notebook/journal, however, I think the paper stack gives out first before the nibs spread. Same for the Falcon SB (not that a broad nib will show much variation anyway -- after all, spreading a 0.2mm fine out to 0.4mm is a 100% increase, but a 0.6mm broad to 0.8mm is only a 33% increase).

 

All my other pens probably qualify as "hard" nibs (especially the Sheaffer Intrigue -- if one needs to sign through multiple layers of carbon paper that might be a good fountain pen for it).

 

 

Don't have a Stipula "T-Flex" inked so can't comment on it.

[AAAndrew]

Traditionally, as in back in the days when the nib was all of the pen, and you dipped it in ink, people made a great distinction between soft and stiff, flexible and inflexible. The distinction they made was that the pen body itself was either stiff, or it had some amout of spring to it, i.e. it bent ever so slightly as you wrote. This was considered a positive thing and many designs were made to try and achieve this softness. In a patent granted to Samuel Warrington in 1866 for his pen designed to address this issue, he describes it thus:

 

"Pens of the ordinary construction are generally either too stiff or are elastic only at or near the points [ed: tips of the tines], so that on the slightest excess of pressure the nib is spread to such an extent as to produce too heavy of a line."

 

 

This spreading of the tips of the tines is what determines flexibility. But flexibility is not just the spreading of the tines. There are several aspects of a pen that determine flexibility, most of which have already been mentioned. The three major characteristics of flex are how far apart a pen's tines can spread, how much pressure is required to spread them, and how quickly do the tines snap back to their original position. Each can differ greatly and can deeply impact the experience of writing with that pen.

 

In an 1853 ad for Rhoads and Sons' "New Patent Amalgam Pen" the combination of these two aspects, softness and flex is described. This combination was usually called the "action" of the pen in early descriptions.

 

In minutely examining the quill pen in the act of writing, it will be see that the action is compound, consisting, first, of a gentle yielding backward action immediately above the nib of the pen [ed: at this time "nib" referred to the tines and "pen" was what we call a "nib"], and, second, the "scissors" action, or spreading open of the points to permit the flow of ink.

 

 

This "softness" is something still seen in some nibs, Pelikan nibs can often have it, as well as some Japanese nibs, and MB nibs as well, but most people still just talk about "flex" like it's the one and only thing to distinguish a "nail" (no softness, no flex) from other nibs.

 

I talk about this in a little more detail on my blog in the post "What is Action."

Edited October 11, 2018 by AAAndrew

[Bo Bo Olson]

Softness is ever so foggy***.......softer than a nail............soft like a regular flex.............or 'soft' as a semi-flex?

To some nail users....a semi-nail could be called soft....the tines bend a hair, the tines spread a hair.

 

How much does the tines spread when well mashed?

How much does the tines bend?

A unmodified Falcon is considered a good soft nib, with good tine bend....but only 2 X tine spread.

 

*** ""I have a powerful motor....

"How many cylinders?...

"???????? ... I have a powerful motor."...=soft.

[wspohn]

I do not think that I have ever experienced a modern pen with flex anything like some vintage pens You need to get a chance to try out a century old Waterman flex nib to really know what it is like. I think of is as a kind of paintbrush, where the line width varies with the weight placed on it. Only modern pen I can think of offhand that has any real flex (and it is nowhere near the vintage pens) is maybe the Pelikan M1000, especially in the finer bibs.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Some 1000's are semi-flex, others are regular flex. So seems to be a luck factor.

I'd tested one in a B&M vs a good semi-flex nibbed pen I brought with me, that one was semi-flex.

 

The one I won at a live auction was regular flex..............but was OBB, and I knew it was 'only' nice springy regular flex. At OBB I do get a tad of line variation.............only a tad.

 

I could see getting a semi-flex 1000 stubbed, then it could hang with the '50-65 stubbed semi-flex nibs of that era.

[Jaywalker]

May I see a picture or a link to a "conical nib," please?

[BaronWulfraed]

May I see a picture or a link to a "conical nib," please?

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1243&bih=993&ei=IEzLW4qeEoW8zwKRtYuwCQ&q=sheaffer+triumph+nib&oq=sheaffer+triumph+nib&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24.5455.11707..11918...0.0..0.86.1552.20......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i8i30j0i5i30j0i30.Qe7Oo0oWqTI

 

Ignore the sporadic images of an inlaid nib -- Sheaffer confused searches by naming a pen "Triumph" even when it didn't use a Triumph nib.

Edited October 20, 2018 by BaronWulfraed

[Jaywalker]

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1243&bih=993&ei=IEzLW4qeEoW8zwKRtYuwCQ&q=sheaffer+triumph+nib&oq=sheaffer+triumph+nib&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24.5455.11707..11918...0.0..0.86.1552.20......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i8i30j0i5i30j0i30.Qe7Oo0oWqTI

 

Ignore the sporadic images of an inlaid nib -- Sheaffer confused searches by naming a pen "Triumph" even when it didn't use a Triumph nib.

Thank you. I don't care for those. Can I then avoid the conical nib by excluding "Scheaffer Triumph," or did others make it also?