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Thinnest Line


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34 replies to this topic

#21 Newbietime

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 00:34

Thank you everyone for the suggestions.

Since someone asked, I wanted the thinnest line for drawing to crosshatch subtlety.

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#22 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 00:58

Thank you everyone for the suggestions.

Since someone asked, I wanted the thinnest line for drawing to crosshatch subtlety.



Sounds like a job for a technical pen. .1 or .13 mm. I have both a .1 and a .18. While great for some purposes, it isn't an everyday pen for me. I rarely use anything narrower than a western fine anymore.

Brad
 
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#23 Honeybadgers

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 05:49

Thank you everyone for the suggestions.

Since someone asked, I wanted the thinnest line for drawing to crosshatch subtlety.

 

i dunno if any fountain pen will behave in that role in the way you want. a FP will inherently have some line variation based on pressure, no matter how light your hand is. I personally think this makes drawings more expressive, but I doubt you'll get a real technical pen experience for crosshatching or stippling.


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#24 Torrilin

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 13:53

Thank you everyone for the suggestions.

Since someone asked, I wanted the thinnest line for drawing to crosshatch subtlety.


Ok, because the Platinum Carbon desk pen is supposed to be decently fine. I haven’t used one myself (there’s perhaps a limit to how many xf nibs one woman needs). But from what I’ve seen in reviews it’s around the same width as a 02 Platinum Preppy, maybe a tad narrower. All xf nibs are prone to some degree of batch variation. The machining for fountain pen nibs is not easy to mechanize. But big makes like Platinum and Pilot do manage to keep a lot of artists happy despite that.

Are you comfortable using the Micron 005 up so that the ink runs out before the tip does? I’m told it takes a light touch and good technique. And their nibs are designed for a 90deg angle to the paper, vs a fountain pen working better around 45deg. (I’m a lefty and I have cranky joints so the 90deg thing is not comfortable or practical for me... thus the fountain pens) The technical pens people have recommended are the ancestors of your Micron pens, and may work better if you are ok on Micron technique.

Next factor is fountain pen ink is liquid. So in a lot of ways it’s closer to watercolor paint than India ink or acrylic ink. Micron ink doesn’t care much about paper. Like watercolor, fountain pen ink cares a LOT. If you were using Platinum Carbon ink, it’s less excitable about paper but there’s definitely paper where it will feather and produce a fat line. And there’s many inks that are quite fussy about paper... so trying to evaluate a nib based on one ink and one paper is a bit tricky.

While small steel nibs like on the Platinum Carbon pen are fairly stiff they can be forced to flex. That gives you a fatter line (also will tire your hand out). If you’re prone to wearing out the 005 before it runs out of ink, it’s unlikely you can use anything but maybe some German xf nibs effectively. They’ll be more like a Micron 03 or 05. This is still fine enough for subtle cross hatching but you need to think about scale of the initial drawing and have good control of the shift from pure cross hatch to the pure linear stuff. And good control over your value scale. As you build control on those technical aspects, you’ll tend to lighten up on the pressure.

In addition to the pen angle, there’s a right way to orient the nib and the slit to the paper. 45deg which may seem a bit confusing if you can see that the nib tip is a tiny ball of metal. The tip is a ball, but the slit isn’t. It’s easier to understand if you’re comfortable with dip nibs or italic nibs.

Basically, there’s a LOT of variables here. And you’re just telling us about one. So you’re not gonna get a full answer.

You definitely aren’t going to get the rigid line weight hierarchy that many mangaka shoot for with a fountain pen. Close maybe, but it’s not an ideal match of tool and style. And it isn’t well suited to things like the kind of very linear engraving on US money. You can have tons of fun improving the sensitivity of your hatching with a fountain pen. They’re great for it. But it’s always going to have a bit of randomness to it. Think ink and wash, or sumi ink work maybe. Or Japanese prints.

#25 Uncial

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 14:16

If they do, it's a custom order.

Yes, I think it is part of their speciality nib line up, or at least it was. I presume they still do it, but it would be well above the price cap set for this thread.



#26 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 16:01

Rotring made a technical stereographic pen.

Hurray Rotring is back in business (just out of the fountain pen business) ....13 line widths on their technical pens. $35.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

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#27 calvin_0

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:56

Do you lend out your Honking Big magnifying Glass so others can read what you have written?

 

 

well it's possible that TC is an artiest, those who normally use lining pen like micron 01 is artist to ink their drawings..



#28 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 10:13

So he has said since I was sarcastic.

Then I remembered Rotring's technical pens.

 

I like two toned shading inks, so stay away from even EF nibs unless editing. I only have a few monotone supersaturated inks, so needed in most skinny nibs.

 

:headsmack:grumble, grumble,  :gaah: I'll have to look at the couple of EF pens I have inked, one of them shades on Clairefontaine Triomphe and the new Rhode 90g.......think it's my BCHR Osmia 76, Supra steel nib. That being a maxi-semi-flex it is no wonder it shades with a good shading ink, in it can wander into F with no problem at all.

That is the old Vintage German width, that is 1/2 a width narrower than modern. 


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#29 SoulSamurai

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 10:03

Could someone recommend a fountain pen under $100 that can write as thinly as a micron 005?

I just bought a platinum carbon desk EF, and I am disappointed at how thick the line is.

 

So my steel Jowo nib ground to XXXF by PBNibs finally arrived. To give an idea of how it works, I compared it to my Copic 0.05 Multiliner:

 

XXXFNibComparison.jpg

 

I apologize to everyone for the large image resolution, but I thought it was justified in this case. The XXXF nib is running off a Sneider blue ink cartridge, which I find to be a well behaved ink that works well in all my pens. The paper is just regular notebook paper that works OK with fountain pens but isn't optimized for them or for artistic use.

 

To my eyes the line thickness is extremely similar when the nib is used with a very light touch. However the nib puts down a heavier line if used a little more heavy handedly. Flipping the nib and using it upside-down is almost identical to right-side-up, however it's more consistent because pressure has less effect on the line.

 

The nib has a hard time making consistent dots; it's a bit better upside down but the Copic is the clear winner here. The tendency of ink to spread through the paper is a factor of course so different ink and paper could yield different results.

 

I was a little surprised that the Copic was actually somewhat smoother to use; the XXXF nib is of course fairly scratching (I think it was about the same on both sides), the Copic is too but somewhat less so. The nib is just fine for drawing fine details, however I wouldn't really want to have to use it for long sweeping strokes or writing in general (unless I need to write some seriously small text). The same is true for the Copic, but to a lesser degree.

 

Overall if you're only working in black then the Copic does seem to be the better choice. If you want to put down fine coloured lines though, then the XXXF nib will do it, it just might take a bit more effort to keep the lines as thin as the Copic's.



#30 BrassRatt

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 05:23

Wasn't that the long thin red line????

;)

Sort of British I believe.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

[Kipling]
 

just a skotch (how is skosch spelled? Skotsch?) (Skoh... scoh... I don't know, haha) "broader" than the Platinum steel EF. (Scoach? Skohch? <laughing; vexed but laughing. I don't wanna ask Google. I want the answer to wake me from a sound sleep.>

 すこし  


Edited by BrassRatt, 24 September 2018 - 05:25.


#31 ethernautrix

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 09:12

すこし  


That works! Arigato.




Aaand I finally asked Google. Skoosh is a splash sound while skosh is a small amount. But sukoshi works brilliantly.

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#32 WLSpec

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 23:17

I find that Pilot Falcon EF puts down a very thin line with little pressure. Otherwise, you might have to go with a custom needlepoint grind (not under $100.)



#33 Honeybadgers

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:15

 

So my steel Jowo nib ground to XXXF by PBNibs finally arrived. To give an idea of how it works, I compared it to my Copic 0.05 Multiliner:

 

XXXFNibComparison.jpg

 

I apologize to everyone for the large image resolution, but I thought it was justified in this case. The XXXF nib is running off a Sneider blue ink cartridge, which I find to be a well behaved ink that works well in all my pens. The paper is just regular notebook paper that works OK with fountain pens but isn't optimized for them or for artistic use.

 

To my eyes the line thickness is extremely similar when the nib is used with a very light touch. However the nib puts down a heavier line if used a little more heavy handedly. Flipping the nib and using it upside-down is almost identical to right-side-up, however it's more consistent because pressure has less effect on the line.

 

The nib has a hard time making consistent dots; it's a bit better upside down but the Copic is the clear winner here. The tendency of ink to spread through the paper is a factor of course so different ink and paper could yield different results.

 

I was a little surprised that the Copic was actually somewhat smoother to use; the XXXF nib is of course fairly scratching (I think it was about the same on both sides), the Copic is too but somewhat less so. The nib is just fine for drawing fine details, however I wouldn't really want to have to use it for long sweeping strokes or writing in general (unless I need to write some seriously small text). The same is true for the Copic, but to a lesser degree.

 

Overall if you're only working in black then the Copic does seem to be the better choice. If you want to put down fine coloured lines though, then the XXXF nib will do it, it just might take a bit more effort to keep the lines as thin as the Copic's.

 

Pablo grinds his nibs with a deliberate bit of tooth. My XXF flex nib is much toothier than it could be, but I REALLY like the feeling.

 

If you're drawing and are used to copics, you'll never get that from a fountain pen. a fountain pen is going to be more akin to a dip pen, flexible nibs give expressive lines and rigid nibs will give you an overall feel. I love sketching with my zoom nib, and now my custom stacked nib that can give tiny XXF details to BBBB strokes.


Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)


#34 SoulSamurai

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 06:48

Pablo grinds his nibs with a deliberate bit of tooth. My XXF flex nib is much toothier than it could be, but I REALLY like the feeling.

 

I see; so it is possible to get a smoother XXXF from him. Cool.



#35 A Smug Dill

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 00:32

fpn_1538440170__super-fine_writing_with_

Resized so that it is true to size when displayed on the screen of my 13-inch MacBook Pro:
fpn_1538440208__super-fine_writing_with_

Looking at it through my loupe, the line widths in the writing shown above are in the range between 0.1mm and 0.2mm.

That pen cost me far in excess of US$100, but it could be possible that other Sailor (or Platinum, or Pilot) F nibs could write significantly finer and yet consistently when the nib is upside-down.

Edited by A Smug Dill, 02 October 2018 - 05:08.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.






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