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Inky Question For Ef Nib Users


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128 replies to this topic

#21 LizEF

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Posted 31 August 2018 - 23:35

I wouldn't worry too much about what people don't like to see or don't find useful in reviews; if you want to include it, include it, and people who don't find it useful can simply overlook it. I doubt you will receive many complaints of being too exhaustive in your efforts.

 

At the end of the day, I think many if not most of us enjoy seeing reviews in any shape or form, so don't feel too pressured to please everyone at once. Seeing others' points of view based on their individual habits is IMO a large part of the appeal of community-written reviews.

 

Thanks, crahptacular!  In the end, that's what I'll end up doing, but if it's easy to add something others want, I'd like to do that as I'm doing this hoping to help other EF users.



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#22 minddance

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 00:55

This is good news, LizEF!

Thank you in advance. You are shedding light on a dark corner that most reviewers neglect. What you are doing offers a more complete view on inks. We all know that inks appear different in different pens and the EF nib, especially very fine ones are often neglected by many reviewers.

Regarding nibmeistered/adjusted nibs, please indicate in your reviews so that viewers would know. I understand we do not have unlimited resources and need to work with what we have. But it is always good to report/indicate.

I wish you all the best and hope to see your splendid work very soon :)

#23 LizEF

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 01:17

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, minddance! :)

 

Regarding nibmeistered/adjusted nibs, please indicate in your reviews so that viewers would know. I understand we do not have unlimited resources and need to work with what we have. But it is always good to report/indicate.

 

:blush: That would require me to remember.  Only my Visconti has been nibmeistered - my request was to restore it as close to original as possible.  I'm 99% certain only my Pelikan fine nib has had the tines spread (it came really dry), and I'm not likely to use it in the review - it's now fat and juicy like Pelikans are supposed to be.  That leaves micromeshing.  I'll have to ponder that.  I know I micromeshed one of my Penmanships, but I have 2 clear and 2 black, and I don't remember which got smoothed - or have a way to distinguish them.  :blush:

 

Still, I'll make an effort to remember, in fact, I'll write it now while I'm thinking of it....

 

The Karas Kustoms EF had bad baby's bottom.  It got ground down with some rougher grit micromesh and then smoothed out again.

 

I smoothed (ever so slightly) the nib on my Falcon SEF - at 12,000 - yes, it worked. :)

 

Pretty sure I smoothed the Eco, also at 12,000.

 

And if I smoothed anything else, I don't remember it.  I remember the Lamy EF was shockingly smooth out of the box.  I believe the Pilot Metropolitan F was equally amazingly smooth.  And that's it.  No others were smoothed.

 

Well, I'm reasonably sure that's it - I went and looked at each pen, to jog my memory, and that's what it reported. ;)

 

I'll be using this thread as sort of a reference, so I'll leave this here as a reminder to include the info in the reviews.


Edited by LizEF, 01 September 2018 - 01:19.


#24 LizEF

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 01:24

Hmm.  Maybe I should add that of all my nibs, only the Visconti (stupid me) and the Pelikan seem to write differently to me than when they came, beyond the above being a little smoother.  That is, none seem to write wetter or fatter than before.  Now of course, I'm a human and incapable of precision measuring, but thought I'd mention this so you know I don't want pens to write wetter (unless they're clearly wrong - like the Pelikan was - it almost wouldn't write horizontally), I just want them to be smooth - though I outgrew that around the time I got my Sailor and then Platinum - I love their feedback - and none of my gold-nib Pilots ever needed smoothing.



#25 crahptacular

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 01:42

On a related note, I've recently begun to include small notes about my nibs' behavior (generally how wet/dry they tend to run). My own reasoning was that stock nibs can be pretty inconsistent to begin with, so saying "stock Bock nib" doesn't give very useful data--I have a stock Bock M that writes wider than a stock Bock B. On the other hand, nibmeisters produce more consistent results, but there are much fewer people for whom that data would be relevant. Hence, I figured it would be more generally useful to say "this was written with a Pilot Elite F nib that usually runs wet" than "this was written by a stock Pilot Elite F nib" (I do include the manufacturer because standard nib grades vary between brands). Plus, I honestly can't remember which nibs I did what to... :lol:.



#26 LizEF

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 02:49

On a related note, I've recently begun to include small notes about my nibs' behavior (generally how wet/dry they tend to run). My own reasoning was that stock nibs can be pretty inconsistent to begin with, so saying "stock Bock nib" doesn't give very useful data--I have a stock Bock M that writes wider than a stock Bock B. On the other hand, nibmeisters produce more consistent results, but there are much fewer people for whom that data would be relevant. Hence, I figured it would be more generally useful to say "this was written with a Pilot Elite F nib that usually runs wet" than "this was written by a stock Pilot Elite F nib" (I do include the manufacturer because standard nib grades vary between brands). Plus, I honestly can't remember which nibs I did what to... :lol:.

 

That's a great idea.  Could you please go back to January 2016 and convince then-me to do this? ;)



#27 A Smug Dill

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 03:07

I have three Platinum #3776 SF nibs, now several Platinum #3776 F nibs, around ten Pilot Vanishing Point (standard, rhodium-plated, and black ion-plated) 18K gold nibs, seven or so Lamy steel EF nibs, … and I don't expect the individual nibs in each group to behave 100% identically to the other nibs in their respective groups, even though none has been deliberately modified but are largely as supplied (new). I'd only distinguish them from each other if I'm doing a direct comparison of the units I own, as opposed to trying to generalise across all other units in that same group or category that I do not own.

 

My take on this is that, at the end of the day, the essence of a review is writing down the experiences, observations and conclusions of the reviewer of a particular product or service, and not a projection or forecast of the experience of the next/prospective user of same, much less the value or benefits to that other users or the conclusions they may draw.

Personally, when I write and publish a review (which I do now and then, but not usually of inks), I'd ideally like it to be the third or fifth or tenth review of the product that the individual reader has come across, and that it would add 5% more coverage to the “more complete” view he or she is trying to get, with the understanding that that view will always be less than 100% until he or she tries the product first-hand and use it multiple times over an extended period of time.


Edited by A Smug Dill, 01 September 2018 - 03:15.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#28 minddance

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 01:02

So are we saying pen factory QC is lacking or slack? And cannot compare to nibmeisters' precision? The manufacturers in question are Lamy, Platinum and Bock?

#29 A Smug Dill

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 01:56

There is naturally variation in every group of physical objects. Quality control is mostly a question of whether an individual item fall within the product specifications, which include engineering and/or manufacturing tolerances in a variety of metrics. Companies do not have to publish the ranges of such tolerances, or acceptable margins of error if you prefer, in the design and manufacture of their consumer products; and they are not otherwise obliged to disclose that information to interested parties such as prospective customers or current users, much less consult those parties or have a discussion.

 

There is no promise that any two items with the same product number (or other designation) will be 100% identical physically, and it is unreasonable and foolish for anyone outside of the company to assume, imagine or pretend that such a promise has been implicitly made.

 

Personally, I'm more than prepared to accept that my Platinum #3776 (non-plated) 14K gold F nib is not physically identical to one of yours, and possibly perform differently. If you tell me in a review how a particular ink performs in your pen with such a nib you own, I'll take it as a description of your user experience, not a forecast of my user experience with that ink in my pen, much less either your promise or the (pen and/or ink) manufacturer's promise to me that my experience will be identical. Any and all risks in having a significantly different user experience are mine to accept and take, if I choose to fill my pen with that ink.

 

No, we don't “need to know” – as in extract a promise or guarantee from another party that will give us unshakeable certainty – before expending effort and/or money to acquire some volume of a particular ink and fill a particular pen with it.


Edited by A Smug Dill, 02 September 2018 - 01:58.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#30 XYZZY

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 03:01

Hi Liz.  I'm an FP noob, I've always written with pens that others thinks are too needle-like, so I am very excited about your proposal.

 

I lot of things have been requested here.  My primary request is:  do whatever you find interesting that will keep you going, and don't get caught up in the endless requests from the rest of us.

 

Now I'll contribute to the endless requests...  ;)

 

I agree that feathering can be the bane of EF nibs, so yeah, +1 for all those requests.

 

Flow:  yes tell me more

 

Lubrication: yes tell me more

 

+1 for Japanese EF over Western EF.

 

I personally use Leuchtturm1917 for "good" paper, but at work it's whatever cheap copy paper the boss finds on sale at Staples or Costco (i.e. random and crappy).  I use Leuchtturm1917 because it seems a little more porous and reduces drying times...I'm a lefty.  Anyhow, +1 for both Good paper and trashy paper.  If you have the patience for testing lots of paper then I'll +1 for Leuchtturm1917.

 

I have noticed a small number of inks that exhibit shading even with an EF nib.  If you spot that I'd love to know about it, but otherwise I expect that I'm just not going to be putting down enough ink to be expecting much shading.  Or sheen.  But if it unexpectedly pops up then that's great, so please point it out.

 

I care a bit about water fastness, but I expect somebody else has already covered that, and I assume that this wont change with nib size.  So don't waste your time on my behalf.

 

Different Paper Types:  I know a lot of people love Clairefontaine & Rhodia.  As I mentioned, I use Leuchtturm.  So more paper types are better.  But I fully expect this is one of those things that might turn your passion into a chore, so take care.

 

I'm a noob, I'd love to know more about different inks.  Specifically I disagree with the suggestion to first try all the Diamine inks (and I have Diamines that I really like).  Try what you want.  Try one from everybody, then go back and try a second from everybody.

 

I love saturated colors, and many different colors.


Edited by XYZZY, 02 September 2018 - 04:06.


#31 LizEF

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 03:30

Hi Liz.  I'm an FP noob, I've always written with pens that others thinks are too needle-like, so I am very excited about your proposal.

 

...

 

Hi XYZZY! :)  Thanks for dropping in and adding your support.  It's nice to know there's so much interest.



#32 pajaro

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:25

If you identify Japanese inks only by Japanese names in western characters, I can't relate that to the bottle or package I have. I have several Sailor purples, for example, but don't speak Japanese. Something like "asi ro," for example, means nothing to me. I can't relate that kind of terminology to the labeling on the bottle. I am tempted to throw all those inks away and avoid buying any more, which might be the simplest alternative.

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#33 LizEF

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 14:18

If you identify Japanese inks only by Japanese names in western characters, I can't relate that to the bottle or package I have. I have several Sailor purples, for example, but don't speak Japanese. Something like "asi ro," for example, means nothing to me. I can't relate that kind of terminology to the labeling on the bottle. I am tempted to throw all those inks away and avoid buying any more, which might be the simplest alternative.

 

I think my Sailor inks (3 in bottles) do this.  I suppose I could include a photo of the ink bottle / box (in those cases at least).  All the rest are samples and all I have to go by is the name of the ink as the store presents it - which is in English (e.g. Pilot Iroshizuku Fuyu-syogun).



#34 pajaro

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 17:46

I apologize.  The Pilot inks do have the transliterated Japanese nomenclature for the colors on the bottle.  With this you can match up a write-up with the product.  The Sailor inks do not,  I don't see any solution for this, so I will just avoid the issue.   


"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

They took the blue from the skies and the pretty girls' eyes and a touch of Old Glory too . . .


#35 LizEF

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 18:40

I apologize.  The Pilot inks do have the transliterated Japanese nomenclature for the colors on the bottle.  With this you can match up a write-up with the product.  The Sailor inks do not,  I don't see any solution for this, so I will just avoid the issue.   


Well, it seems like the English-speaking sites include photos of the bottle, so if I review Sailor Nioi sumire, you could look it up and compare the box / bottle to yours. Going in reverse is probably harder. Perhaps posting pictures of you bottles / boxes and asking for translations?

#36 pajaro

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 18:52

I have found all the Sailor inks I have tried to be rather wet, making them perfect for resolving very dry fines and mediums, like Sonnet, but I wouldn't be likely to use them in extra fines where I look for dry ink to get the expected thin line.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I am more likely to use Pelikan, Montblanc or old Sheaffer Skrip in the EFs.  Sometimes I read ink reviews to see if the ink is dry.  I am left handed.


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They took the blue from the skies and the pretty girls' eyes and a touch of Old Glory too . . .


#37 crahptacular

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 19:00

I apologize.  The Pilot inks do have the transliterated Japanese nomenclature for the colors on the bottle.  With this you can match up a write-up with the product.  The Sailor inks do not,  I don't see any solution for this, so I will just avoid the issue.   

Have you considered adding your own labels to your bottles? I've had some bottles where the labels were illegible to me (e.g. stained with ink), and my solution was to write my own label. If your bottles are presented nicely, you can stick the label on the underside to preserve the bottle's original appearance.



#38 pajaro

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 20:30

Have you considered adding your own labels to your bottles? I've had some bottles where the labels were illegible to me (e.g. stained with ink), and my solution was to write my own label. If your bottles are presented nicely, you can stick the label on the underside to preserve the bottle's original appearance.

Sure, you could do that, and it is a great idea.  When I bought the Sailor inks I had no idea what I was buying beyond purple or dark blue ink.  Still, a great idea.


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--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

They took the blue from the skies and the pretty girls' eyes and a touch of Old Glory too . . .


#39 A Smug Dill

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 21:53

The Sailor inks do not,


Take heart; things are getting better. The transliterated names are printed on the refreshed retail packaging of the Sailor (kiwaguro, seiboku and souboku) pigment inks. There are coloured round stickers on the boxes of the 20ml bottles of Sailor Shikiori inks that show the transliterated names with the matching kanji.

http://www.sailorpen...nk-accessories/
As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#40 pajaro

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 23:54

I suppose my mistake was buying from sellers who shipped the ink from Japan.  They might not have anticipated an international sale.  No need for other than Japanese marking.  I think it will be years before I need more.


"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

They took the blue from the skies and the pretty girls' eyes and a touch of Old Glory too . . .







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