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Shorthand: Which One, Where, And How To Learn It


eharriett

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Im not sure if this is a skill that I feel I should learn or not, but Ive recently found myself in situations (speeches, conference calls, meetings) where it was either forbidden or inappropriate to record the meetings. However, I was allowed to take notes. And for some Eason, I seem to be getting into these situations more and more. And it got me thinking about shorthand skills.

 

Im too young. And Im male. While Id learned these skills were taught to some women in schools around my age group, no one ever learned it in public schools where I went of either gender. So I dont really have a basis for how to start, or even, frankly, if I should consider it. So I was hoping someone could recommend a starting point for me to evaluate the need to learn.

 

Ive read theres two basic types: Pitman and Gregg. And if I learn one, theres no real jumping between the two. Which would be better for transcribing talks and speeches? Is there a third one I should consider? YouTube is filled with them if you search, but I was hoping for something more definitive. Any ideas on books or other skill builders?

 

Thanks.

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Yes I did. I should have mentioned that. It is the only real resource I found. Although it doesn’t tell me much about other styles.

 

This may just be Library work.

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  • 1 month later...

I was looking at shorthand the other day. It appears that the Gregg system was preferred in the US and the Pitman system was more widespread in the UK. If you are only planning to use it for your own notes, it probably doesn't matter which system you go with. If you need it for your job, you might be better off going with the one that's most prevalent in your area.

 

Fascinating stuff. I had heard the term all my life. But, yesterday was the first time that I looked at it closely. I might just have to give it a try :)

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I'm actually teaching myself Gregg at the moment given that I have the need to record the events and oaths taken in my Kindred.

 

I picked up The Gregg Shorthand Manual Simplified of Amazon and I'm cross referencing that with the books my great grandfather left on his shelf from when he was a court reporter.

 

I'm finding it to be a fairly useful book on the subject, at least when compared to the failing copy that he left behind.

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when I started in the office - a long time back - I was one of three males, and we were all skilled in Pitman's and the ability to touch type - though I can't imagine that situation existing now.

It does seem to be the case that whilst Pitman's was once almost universal in the U.K., Gregg did gain some popularity - though what the difference is and whether the latter has any advantage over the Scotsman's invention I've no idea. If shorthand is part of your professional day's work, then learning and maintaining the skill, and speeds, is probably much easier than doing so as a hobby - like many things it depends on your level of self-discipline to sit down on a regular basis and take dictation from, for example, the radio.

Though my experiences are now in the distant past I still remember some of the outlines/phrases/contractions - some things learned when young stay with you for ever - and I found the system fascinating in the extreme - but it does take dedication, though I doubt that gender makes any difference to ability. Touch typing is something I've always retained, and now used everyday when sitting at the p.c. keyboard.

It will help, possibly, if you approach the subject from the view of learning the intricacies of either system - rather than simply as a means to recording speech - this can be done easier using technology.

Of course, I'd always recommend Pitman's :D

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I've pretty much forgotten all my shorthand, but had reached 100 words/minute in High School (my choices were [Gregg] Shorthand, followed by Business Machines & Filing, vs two years of PhysEd -- as the wimpy kid with big glasses, guess where I went). Pity my typing speed only reached 30WPM, so the transcription period of the class didn't get much out.

 

Gregg vs Pitman? From what I recall, Gregg is purely based upon letter shapes. Pitman, I believe, not only used letter shapes but also relied upon the position of the shapes on the line (and from some recent reading triggered by posts in other threads, also relied upon variation in stroke thickness -- which would just kill speed in my mind, even with a limp noodle flex nib; I use fountain pens as properly set up they do not require pressure to write, having to concentrate on thick or thin stroke is too much).

 

http://pitmania.com/shorthand-deathmatch-pitman-v-gregg-2/

https://www.omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm

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As a short follow-up (since I can't edit a week-old post)

 

Appears Gregg Diamond Jubilee is more simplified than Gregg Simplified (I just spent a few minutes comparing the two text-books I have -- based upon book condition I thought the DJ was the older variant). Simplified (and earlier) appears to rely upon a lot more memorization of special forms/abbreviations, and has some disjoint strokes. DJ spells more words out (so a somewhat slower top speed), and for the most part the only disjoint strokes are the H (a dot over the vowel) and the ING ending (a dot following the end of the word... hmmm, that makes "singing" look like ",..").

 

My HS taught DJ.

Edited by BaronWulfraed
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My mother learned Pitman in the 1940s, and Gregg in the 1970s. She mentioned that Gregg was pen-based but Pitman was done with a pencil.

In retrospect I might surmise that Pitman May have been more dependent on line variation, because you couldn’t get flexible nibs in the 70s.

Hope this is useful - I never learned either system; I just draw pictures.

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  • 1 month later...

You might also check which type your courts in your area will accept for legal notation or trial transcript if their reqular machines do not work.

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Just to add a little to sid's comments, insofar as Pitman's system does use thick and thin strokes for the outlines, so yes, the ability to create line variation is essential and I was taught to use an HB pencil which seemed to have been more than adequate for this, and I remember only ever using a pencil. Pitman's is based on the use of phonetics - how the words sound rather than their spelling. Whether the guys at Hansard used pencils or f.ps. I've no idea, but since they were ultra professional then possibly f.ps., and this assumption is supported by the following extract from a small 'New Era Edition - Shorthand Instructor' issued by Pitman's c. late 1940s (for five shillings - £0.25p)

 

""Speaking generally, it is not so easy to acquire a neat style of writing by the use of pencil as by the use of a pen. No doubt, the pencil is frequently employed; in some cases, indeed, it my be found impossible to use a pen for note-taking. The student would do well, therefore, to accustom himself to write either with a pen or a pencil in the more advanced stages of his progress, though for writing the exercises given in this book the pen only should be used.""

 

Certainly from c.1920s and probably until c. 1970s, many of the big manufacturers in the world of pens. put their names to f.ps. that were sold with nibs intended specifically for shorthand …………. Pitman's, Platignum, Osmiroid, C.S., Waterman, Esterbrook, Sheaffer - not all of the nibs carried the word shorthand, and sometimes it appeared on the barrel or section. Though I never used a f.p., I don't get the impression the nib would have required much in the way of flex.

 

There was a good German f.p./nib from the '70s that I recall was recommended for shorthand, though I now forget the name.

 

Is shorthand used in any professional capacity still - I would have thought all now superseded by electronic wizardry.

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The voice recorder is a modern variant, but transcription remains an enormous pain in the nether regions.

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Gregg and Pitman both are "phonetic" oriented. Gregg feels more "cursive" to me, as there are only two disjoint markings (it has been 40 years since my classes): a dot over vowel for "h" and a dot under/trailing the end of a word for "ing". My understanding of Pitman indicates much more disjoint markings for, I believe, vowels, and also somewhat dependent upon position in the line (Gregg could be done on unruled paper).

 

I ran the High School shorthand class using a Sheaffer 440 (believe it is an F nib -- the marking wore off decades ago). Managed to reach around 100-110 words per minute for dictation, though my transcription (typing) rate was only around 30wpm.

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  • 2 months later...

That's very interesting sidthecat. My mom learned a shorthand in her government work back in the 1960s, but didn't know the name of it and its a shorthand nobody else we've met since does. The other government offices, even back then, weren't doing that same shorthand. I wonder if its one of those older ones (e.g., the one fro the 1940s). She used it for her work with the local paper, but I never learned it. It would be helpful for my work as a researcher, since I conduct a lot of interviews, and not everybody wants to be audio recorded.

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I've worked a couple times with Gregg, and keep thinking that in my line of work it might not be a terrible skill. (I'm an attorney and regularly do interviews with clients, where I'll need to review information later.)

 

I've looked at Pitman, but always figured I'd need something more like a dip pen for more flex to get enough variation to really see the difference. Might be fun to do something like learn Gregg as a group and share Fountain Pen Outlines to decipher/critique.

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Might be fun to do something like learn Gregg as a group and share Fountain Pen Outlines to decipher/critique.

Actually, that would be kind of fun! I wonder if we could get a group and a knowledgeable expert to volunteer to lead it.

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Of course one then has to decide upon which generation of Gregg!

 

I have two Gregg textbooks, one each for "Simplified" and "Diamond Jubilee" (while my Simplified book is a newer printing than the DJ, DJ is actually a newer generation).

 

Each generation has removed more and more special/abbreviation forms which one was supposed to memorize -- meaning top writing speed has come down some as one writes things out in longer forms which had been special short forms in older editions. Heck, the box for the Esterbrook 9555 nib uses disjoint markings for "sh" (downward short straight line) and "nd" (smooth curve combining _/ -- n d -- strokes).

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Of course one then has to decide upon which generation of Gregg!

 

Each generation has removed more and more special/abbreviation forms which one was supposed to memorize -- meaning top writing speed has come down some as one writes things out in longer forms which had been special short forms in older editions. Heck, the box for the Esterbrook 9555 nib uses disjoint markings for "sh" (downward short straight line) and "nd" (smooth curve combining _/ -- n d -- strokes).

 

Yeah, I read about that. I was interested in getting one of super old editions and learning that. Any skill is going to take time.

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Of course one then has to decide upon which generation of Gregg!

 

I have two Gregg textbooks, one each for "Simplified" and "Diamond Jubilee" (while my Simplified book is a newer printing than the DJ, DJ is actually a newer generation).

 

Each generation has removed more and more special/abbreviation forms which one was supposed to memorize -- meaning top writing speed has come down some as one writes things out in longer forms which had been special short forms in older editions. Heck, the box for the Esterbrook 9555 nib uses disjoint markings for "sh" (downward short straight line) and "nd" (smooth curve combining _/ -- n d -- strokes).

 

True, my past experiences have been with Anniversary since that's what I found on my grandmother's shelf while I was in college and then later what I found freely available online. Definitely not opposed to another form. The short forms I can think of off the top of my head mostly made intuitive sense like ND for and, TH for the, YT for Yours Truly, etc.

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I wouldn't consider ND and TH as short forms -- as the vowel is sort of indeterminate so no actual "swirl" fits for them.

 

YT, OTOH, is a short form.

 

Grabbing the "Simplified" text, lesson 15 introduces "short forms" for

 

never NV

situation SAT(SH) [sH a single stroke]

public/publish PB

future FTR

acknowledge AC

 

and one that is a composite

 

quantity being a C with a long T stroke bisecting it (possibly to be views as a C with a T below and above CTT, but using one stroke for the TT).

 

{And I'm amazed I can still decode -- if slowly -- those strokes, given it has been 40 years since my classes... I also took a "business machines and filing" class -- a dictaphone that used wax coated plastic loops (wasn't a drum as it had two axles), Friden C10 (or similar) calculator -- though the class mostly used 10-key adding machines}

Edited by BaronWulfraed
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