A Silly Question

[ardene]

Bo Bo,

 

I'd never thought about my grip before I joined these fora! I believe my grip's a variant on the classic tripod, pen resting on the middle finger's lower left side just below the bottom middle finger joint, at the beginning of the distal phalanx (yes, I have a callus there which isn't so noticeable as it was when I was in school), the index finger loosely over the top of the pen and slightly to the left. The top is indicated by the nib's normal writing orientation - ball-pens have no top! A polite way to say it is that ball points have circular symmetry... Finally the thumb serves as a pad for the pen.

 

Edit: The index and the thumb are bent at every joint except the bottom joint of the index. The index finger touches the pen with the tip, with the Vector and the Duofold with less than half the tip to allow for the thumb's back to fit well against the section; the thumb touches the pen with about half or slightly more of its back side below the bottom joint. The tips of index and thumb are almost at the same height. With the IM the thumb tip can be lower than my index tip. The ring finger and the pinky finger are loosely turned inward and do not move much throughout writing. The side of the hand at the pinky finger side and the pinky finger itself might or might not touch the paper usually they do, the non-touching normally happens at the end of a line or of the page. The barrel of the pen rests where it wants depending on its weight and whether it's capped or not. Most pens and pencils of any sort will immediately settle between the root of the index and the thumb, the heavy capped Urban and IM will settle almost at the root of the thumb. The job of the three fingers at the section is just to hold the pen in the position in wants to assume. With a fountain pen I write at an angle of around 45 degrees independent of the pen. All in all, an accurate description is that I hold pens like darts - Parker buffs would probably say "like an arrow".

 

Further edit: I found a ball-point which can write. The grip is the same, but the pen must be held at an angle of 70 to 80 degrees. I still hold the pen low, as expected. The barrel rests near the root of the index finger now. As a result, I can feel my thumb's muscles having to compensate all the time for the opposing force. The movement still comes from the lower arm, of course.

 

Unless I'm in a hurry (like, say, when I was during high school baccalaureate exams) or really angry, I don't use pressure by the fingers as far as I can tell, and then usually it's just the thumb that gets all red from the pressure. I believe that's what is called the death grip. I normally don't do it.

 

My palms and fingers do sweat (I have discoloured a -low- number of non-plastic-coated softcover books simply by carrying them around in my hands for twenty minutes in summertime, some of these were other people's...). So maybe I compensate for that when I try to minimise the surface of the pen I touch. The Vector will slide gradually towards the black ring they have before the nib, and it will stop there. It's not uncomfortable to write with because I don't normally apply forceful pressure, so I hardly notice that the ring presses against my thumb below the nail.

 

In middle school, a fellow student came and pulled without effort the blue vector I was using then from my grip and ran. That's how I know I don't hold tight onto the dear pens. It was good fun actually, but I threatened her that I might try to see if the pen can penetrate jeans and the flesh of her thighs. There you have it; another use for a good nail fountain pen might be as a self-defence instrument. They might even still work afterwards.

 

When moving the pen the motion comes from the elbow. The elbow is the pivot point for every writing motion, aided by the wrist every so often, like when raising the pen higher before positioning to write a full stop or a comma. The wrist does not pivot too much in its possible radius of flex. I do not write from the shoulder and I don't advise it because it can lead to a very stiff body posture, which, like a very relaxed posture, isn't all that good news for the spine. Besides, writing from the arm has the added benefit that you can write lying in bed, which I do infrequently, taking some care about the spine.

 

The downside to my writing is that if I write fast for some time, two or three hours a day without many breaks -as when we do to think the next word, to brew some coffee, etc- for two or thee days in succession, my lower arm tendons become inflated. This is because they work repetitively in tandem against their attachment points on the bones to keep the wrist in place and move the arm. It feels like a slight burn on the upper side of the wrist, where the muscles join together before the hand, usually accompanied by stiffness in the large flexor (flexor carpi ulnaris) when raising or lowering a thing in my grasp; occasionally there might be numbness or slight pain in the corresponding extensor (carpi ulnaris). It requires a day or two of rest. Karpos / Carpus is the wrist in Greek and Latin respectively btw.

 

 

That said, this is nothing to worry about, and as far as I can tell it's next to impossible to lead to serious conditions, like the carpal syndrome. Indeed, regular handwriting and regular writing on a well oiled-typewriter positioned at lower-chest or upper-abdomen height are far safer than keyboard writing.

 

I've had my share of mileage with pall-points, but I haven't used regularly one since I was in the penultimate year of elementary school. We wanted to grow up fast, you see, and since one person in the cohort brought an ink writing instrument, it caught up like fire. Most teachers didn't bother. Those who bothered had to give up. So, I guess it's safe to say that I've used pens since the beginning. I've used some ball-points in high school. Pilots were the new thing back then (late 90s), comfy with the rubber band around the plastic body, trendy enough to be cool, inauspicious enough to blend in. The rather wet ink was a novelty to most of us, too, somewhere between a Bic and a fountain pen. Never in my life have I liked those old reliable Bic pens though, because of the hexagonal body. As I sweat, the pen rotates in my hand (not any of fountain pens I've had ever rotated much though); I can tell you the instability of those six rotating angles is a torture! Bizarrely, the usual old-fashioned pencils don't rotate between my fingers though. Maybe the wood absorbs sweat through the paint coating?

 

I would like to try the "forefinger up" method at some point. I have found some threads here, but I'm still looking for details. I have also looked up the 10-2-6 tripod grip to no avail.

 

PS. It makes sense to focus on collecting German pens in your case. And they 're more than fine instruments.

Edited July 7, 2018 by ardene

[Bo Bo Olson]

Look up Classic Tripod, or Tripod.....is the 10-2-6 hold.

 

You would have to post your Lady Duofold if you try the 'forefinger up' method.

I had the callus....well, indent at the root of my middle finger nail. I moved the location of the pen 1/3 an inch down into the meat of the middle finger pad......no more pain from a pressed nerve....no more callus, or dent.

Even if you don't change the rest of your grip....that alone helps.

 

I spent a couple days switching between my Tripod grip and the 'forefinger' up, as it became more comfortable to use. At first my handwriting was larger, but very soon got back to normal.

In the flattened thumb is a dam...that the pen rests on....at 08:30 there is no pressure of the Kung Fu Death Pinch.....

I do find one puts pressure on the pen in 10&2....one has to. At 08:30-09:00 there is no downward pressure.(thumb is a dam...pen rests....not being pinched onto the middle finger. Laying the forefinger on top with no pressure at 12:00-12:30-13:00 is enough pressure one don't have to pinch down at 02:00.

 

If you notice both the forefinger and thumb pinch in Classic Tripod. The forefinger is elbowed out at the second joint, the thumb at the end joint.......for the sort of circle the pen is pressed into.

 

 

I really do have to get a French P-75, in the American one, has like a Safari a built in tripod grip.

 

There was no need to think of your grip before..........it 'worked'.

Sometimes knowledge, is of a lesser advantage than would be believed, in with it....more work is required.

[ardene]

Oh, I see, the 10-2-6 was pilot talk - aircraft pilot talk I mean. Orientation around an axis of reference. I will look further into any Tripod threads I encounter for it - Control-F's my friend.

 

Last night I was able to find more about the 'forefinger up'. I tried it a bit this morning with the longer pens; what I did works, but I need more control over the rounded characters. Kind of works with this small Duofold too if you hold it a bit higher on the section like a cigarette between middle and index. The thumb's almost all over the barrel, which isn't a problem apart from filling the screw spiral with dead cells, dust and other skin debris. I'll avoid posting it at any time because the cap plastic's rumoured to crack. This grip's nice if I ever get any nerve pain in the middle finger. I haven't so far maybe because somehow the pens aren't supported by the joint, but below it. The callus is some extra flesh which also acts protectively. Bic cristals can irritate my skin there.

 

I was able to describe the affected muscles because I 've overdone it with handwriting the past two weeks with the Duo. It's happened frequently before, but I didn't bother. I can feel which muscles strain by moving my arm in various directions this very moment. Rest is due, not for the muscles', but for the wrist tendons' sake, where the muscles attach.

 

Triangular section on the Parker 75 I see. Interesting pens. Does the Safari tripod section feel good in your experience?

 

I've also found this review of silver American 75s. One of them even came with a key! I didn't know that, but I bet you did. What it does is revealed at 12.50 of the video; it turns the nib and feeder so that the user will use the triangular section as it suits their style of writing!

 

"Sometimes knowledge, is of a lesser advantage than would be believed, in with it....more work is required". Now, that's an expression revealing wisdom if I've ever seen any.

Another question if you don't mind: do you have / have used any particular pen the nib of which you like more than others?

[Bo Bo Olson]

My 75 is a tad later than the Key version, all I had to do was just turn the nib slightly....there are little marks on the metal section end, to remind you how much.

I actually found it really useless. If one had posted the pen, you could turn the nib......but why? Just cant the pen and then post it.

I guess it was fiddling to get the right angle after posting.

I wrote straight mostly....so canting the nib was seldom.

 

 

I like vintage German semi-flex/maxi-semi-flex obliques (they have great line variation, and one needs to do nothing but write).....OB-OBB's or any of them OM, OF.....I think OEF would be too narrow.

I once thought I'd have an OEF, but some one had swapped nibs in my 790 Ghea ...it was only EF, but it was a maxi-semi-flex so I didn't return the pen. The body had been marked OEF.

 

The vintage nibs are 1/2 a width narrower than modern. So B would be a fat M. An OB is a good writing nib, not a signature nib. I always suggest starting with an OB, in it has a fatter sweet spot and one can get away with holding the pen/nib a bit too straight. One can not get away with OM&OF being off of cant angle....or it will be scratchy.

I explained somewhere here, I think, my trick of aiming the clip to how much grind the nib has.

 

For shading inks I like a nice springy regular flex.....M is very good, F does ok too. There of course oblique is a waste of money, like in nail. EF is too narrow to shade.

 

Unless one is left handed or left eye dominate and automatically cant's the nib to see the top of it...only vintage German obliques in semi&maxi are going to give the line variation that one can really see.........many IMO think they have line variation from modern obliques.....but compared to the real thing....they don't.

 

I've had a nail OB&OM. Had the OB mad CI, sold the OM.....have a springy regular flex W.Germany OM....knowing through trans-mailing 200 nibs to a pal in England, in some German sellers refuse to post out of Germany, the regular regular flex oblique didn't give much to any line variation, had hopes the tad more springy W. Germany nib would.....didn't.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Honeybadgers]

For me a nail is a nib that is absolutely rigid. some steel nibs have a little give (conklin) and some do not (faber castell) and some are just made of cheddar cheese and spring, which does not count as a nail. A nail, for me, is a nib that doesn't care about someone being very ham-handed with it, it won't care, TWSBI nibs are nails in this regard, as are faber castell. A platinum steel nib, on the other hand, will not appreciate your abuse, making it a regular old steel nib. And the conklin omniflex is made of such bad steel that it is just mush.

[ardene]

Bo Bo,

 

You seem to like the obliques. I have to at least try -if not own- one at some point. I can also tell you like variation from flex. I can't say that I wouldn't find enjoyable some line variation in my writing, but it might need attention, variable pressure on the pen and slower-than-slow writing to achieve that - with the Duofold, because the nails I have won't spread under pressure. I tried the other day I posted the pictures with the Urban and the IM and the only thing I got was some ink visibly bulging in the slit of the Urban under pressure and then receding- which is wet pen to the point of getting its upper nib surface regularly dirty with ink from the feeder. But it is the smoothest writer of the pens I have. As you say, vintage German pens will spread, giving variation, without effort. That's a very interesting thing to have in mind.

 

Do you really think that a oblique nib is a good starter nib? It won't write at such a wide radius of inclination of the nib's top around the barrel axis as regular nibs do, so people might become disappointed and give up fountain pens.

 

The Duofold feels definitely elastic when writing with it compared to the other pens I have. On the other pens you can clearly tell that the nib of this thing's not giving way under any circumstances; but the Duofold nib won't give any visible line variation without extra pressure, even at the tail of "p", the back of "d" etc. Of course, it has the same behaviour when I write in Greek. (Greek small letters have a lot of curves on them).

 

I should clarify here that the Duofold's not an oblique, it has an iridium oval-shaped tip. The newer Parkers all have a spherical edge, not this flat oval.

 

The Duofold's nib writes smoothly and I don't mind its thin line. But when I write fast and draw strokes in a broadly horizontal direction I can feel the nib reassuming its original shape after I have finished the stroke. There seems to be some elasticity in the left-right direction as well, which is interesting. It's a totally new experience for me. The nib otherwise is a secure fit in the section and it's doesn't wobble or anything. I have to say that the best writer I have is the Urban. It literally flows on paper at any speed.

[ardene]

Honeybadgers,

 

Thank you for the extra information on other pen makers. I have tried some Faber-Castells at Schiphol airport where they had a few inked for people to try and hopefully buy. They made a lot of fuss about design and -oddly- flex. My short experience with them wasn't different at all from any Parker I'd had till that point, except that they were generally thicker, and orange, and with formula one carbon fibre and I don't know what else. The salespeople were rather disappointed when I told them that the Airbus I'd soon fly in has a lot of carbon fibre on the tail assembly and elsewhere and it's a design of the middle eighties.

 

"A platinum steel nib, on the other hand, will not appreciate your abuse, making it a regular old steel nib". Can you expand on that?

 

As I've told to Bo Bo in the previous posts, the Lady Duofold I've got has a nib which will give way, but it needs some extra pressure to do so. My other pens won't spread their tines under any circumstances.

 

By cheddar you probably refer to the soft cheese slices people use in burgers I guess. Here in England they sell cheddar in blocks of 350 to 450 grams. It's hard. If it's really old (25 years or so "extra mature cheddar") it is as hard as parmesan. Yes, the cheddar they use in burgers is the soft one.

[Bo Bo Olson]

but it might need attention, variable pressure on the pen and slower-than-slow writing to achieve that -""""""

 

I write just as fast with semi-flex and with regular flex-----or a nail. If you flair a bit, just write a bit larger.don't become bedazzled with the line variation as one scribbles.

Semi-flex is On Demand.....if you don't demand then all you get is a touch of flair.

 

If you want line variation, you decide when and how....in a lighter hand the ease of tine spread will be there, ... unless a real light hand a Semi-flex F can write to an M, but you decide how much.....when to 'max' the nib or if a down stroke starts fat and stays or if it starts normal and gets fatter with pressure you wish to add.

It's really no big deal if your semi-flex F writes to an M....as long as you can read it.....and at normal speed.

Having a semi-flex F write to a B= ham fistedness.

 

If one is Ham Fisted you will max the nib more often....but I don't see being ham fisted as slowing anything down..............it's when one wants to get a tad fancy, that one can slow down.

 

The first semi-flex I had were OB and OF.......with the OB teaching me how to cant a nib....and having the slop to get away with being a tad off.

An M in semi-flex would be a very good nib, being like a fat F in modern.

I can see semi-flex EF really slowing one down....in such a narrow nib is easy to spread it's tines if one is a bit ham fisted.

It wasn't until a bit later that I got a M, and F nibs.

It would be better to get straight semi-flex nibs first, perhaps.

 

I did have time to be bedazzled with my 140 OB.....and I was ham fisted, so maxed the nib more. Not that that really slowed down my chicken scratch......after a while....I got up to Rooster Scratch, with no problems.

[ardene]

Bo Bo,

 

I see. You do have to apply some pressure to get every pen to flex. The occasional line variation isn't "flex". Are there any pens which give flair -as opposed to flex or semi-flex- without any extra pressure?

 

As I told you before, none of my Parkers is designed to give line variation without extra pressure. To apply the extra pressure I have to consciously intend to do so, which slows me down. Not that it makes much difference on my nails.

 

Parker's lower-end nail nibs used to be small without exception. I find that design choice intriguing. Generally, I do like them aesthetically more. Nibs with broad shoulders are fine, but the overall body of the pen plays some part in my being attracted to a pen or not. With the smaller nibs I am attracted by the nib itself. But that's just personal preferences.

 

Rooster scratch sounds like it has more gravitas to it than Chicken scratch

Edited July 9, 2018 by ardene

[Bo Bo Olson]

I believe your Parker is regular flex................with no evidence to back that up. I don't know that early of Parker....having a '38 Vac, P-51 which were nails. My P-75 was a semi-nail...well mashed will go 2 X. (The '90's-21st century ones are lower end and nails.)

My P-45 is English in regular flex, my English Jr. Doufold is semi-flex...but English don't count with American Parker....in '50's English Parker and Sheaffer factories had to compete with Swan that had a wide assortment of flexes.

 

If I mash a regular flex like a Pelikan 200 or other vintage pens...Esterbrook having screw out nibs had many flexes from manifold, regular flex and a hard semi-flex. Sheaffer had regular flex, in most companies made a pen with that flex.

 

So, If Well Mashed, a regular flex will spread it's tines 3 X a light down stroke as a max.....if mashed lighter or pressed getting 2 X out of it is not that hard, but requires good pressure to do that often or always.

I don't expect line variation from regular flex.

 

Semi-flex requires half the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3X.....the ham fisted can get 3 X out of it with no great problem. As mentioned took me some three months not to max or mash my semi-flex All-The-Time.

Now if I want line variation I got to ask for it...............not hard though to get some.

 

I do get flair with no 'thought' or real effort. What is flair....a letter is a bit wider at some point than if written very lightly. It's easy to add a touch to make a letter 1 1/2 to twice as fat as a light down stroke.

Even using a nail or regular flex, some letters or parts of letters are hit harder than others....with semi-flex, that shows.

It just happens with out needing to Make It.

If you want to make a bit more fancy....you can Make It.

But actually it is a bit of work....when one has had maxi or superflex. One does have to learn to draw decenders....and not use them all the time.....just an end of the paragraph fancy if the last letter has a decender.......and is a planned fancy bit............otherwise you just scribble on to the next paragraph....with out a care in the world.

 

But maxi-semi-flex does fancy easier....needing only 1/2 the pressure of semi-flex, or 1/4th that when one mashes a regular flex to the max of 3X.

All three regular flex, Semi&Maxi, are in a 3 X max set.

 

Semi-flex will give flair and some line variation, with out slowing down for Sunday Drivers....and if you do want more......don't honk your horn.

[Honeybadgers]

Bo Bo,

 

You seem to like the obliques. I have to at least try -if not own- one at some point. I can also tell you like variation from flex. I can't say that I wouldn't find enjoyable some line variation in my writing, but it might need attention, variable pressure on the pen and slower-than-slow writing to achieve that - with the Duofold, because the nails I have won't spread under pressure. I tried the other day I posted the pictures with the Urban and the IM and the only thing I got was some ink visibly bulging in the slit of the Urban under pressure and then receding- which is wet pen to the point of getting its upper nib surface regularly dirty with ink from the feeder. But it is the smoothest writer of the pens I have. As you say, vintage German pens will spread, giving variation, without effort. That's a very interesting thing to have in mind.

 

Do you really think that a oblique nib is a good starter nib? It won't write at such a wide radius of inclination of the nib's top around the barrel axis as regular nibs do, so people might become disappointed and give up fountain pens.

 

The Duofold feels definitely elastic when writing with it compared to the other pens I have. On the other pens you can clearly tell that the nib of this thing's not giving way under any circumstances; but the Duofold nib won't give any visible line variation without extra pressure, even at the tail of "p", the back of "d" etc. Of course, it has the same behaviour when I write in Greek. (Greek small letters have a lot of curves on them).

 

I should clarify here that the Duofold's not an oblique, it has an iridium oval-shaped tip. The newer Parkers all have a spherical edge, not this flat oval.

 

The Duofold's nib writes smoothly and I don't mind its thin line. But when I write fast and draw strokes in a broadly horizontal direction I can feel the nib reassuming its original shape after I have finished the stroke. There seems to be some elasticity in the left-right direction as well, which is interesting. It's a totally new experience for me. The nib otherwise is a secure fit in the section and it's doesn't wobble or anything. I have to say that the best writer I have is the Urban. It literally flows on paper at any speed.

 

 

"Bo Bo likes obliques" is perhaps the biggest understatement ever made by a fountain pen user.

 

A steel nib that is bouncy will flex up and down without spreading the tines, at most you get a wetter line. get a platinum preppy and press down on it a bit, it will (very unhappily) bend without springing. A faber castell loom, on the other hand, will not bounce or spread the tines until you press so hard that you spring it.

 

I love the loom's nib for daily use, it writes stunningly and can handle modern awful 3-4 page thick carbon paper. The platinum preppy cannot manage that. But right now I have a #5 14k soft fine gold nib from china in it.

 

A platinum 3776 is a nail (apart from the soft fines) you can press and they do not care.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Honeybadgers

[Bo Bo Olson]

""Bo Bo likes obliques" is perhaps the biggest understatement ever made by a fountain pen user."

But they have to be vintage German semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex***; in semi-vintage or modern 200 regular flex just don't do the trick, much less nail oblique.

 

***Germans stayed with semi-flex to @ 1970, a generation or more longer than the Stateside pen makers outside of the rare '50's Sheaffer. Eversharp went from a superflex of the '30 to semi-flex in the '40's; before Parker bought it up and ruined the name. And there was Waterman....who lost it's US market .... why I don't know.

Esterbrook made a hard semi-flex.

 

But US makers went to making stubbed nails in that was cheaper and did give a different pattern. Stubs had been used in the dip pen era also. I'd have to ask Andrew if they were both flexible and manifold stubs.

I like non-oblique German stubbed semi/maxi-semi-flex also...........they make my writing look like I can.

 

Honeybadger is right, a manifold nib is better for carbon paper.....nearly as good as a ball point.

First carbon paper was double sided, so the business kept the original with the copy on the back and sent the copy sheet. Leaving their lawyer with proof the letter was shipped.

 

In the very late 1860's single sided carbon paper came in....before typewriters; which came in with a good working machine in '76 with Remington.

 

Train orders written for every train that stopped was written by the Station Agent/Manager were one original and 5 copies. The Clocks were checked, the conductor and Eagle Eyes matched clocks with the Station Agent.If one of those two's clock was off, it was swapped out on the spot and repaired for free by the train company. Preventing death and destruction.

 

The first copy went to the Captain of the Train, the Conductor who made $5.00 a day....a Engineer made $4.50.

The Conductor had worked his way up from the tracks, and had been a breakman with his Staff of Ignorance, that he turned break wheels with in all weathers, tapped train wagon wheels...seeing if they were sound, and beat up Hobo's who didn't have small money for riding with out a ticket. So a Conductor was not just a ticket puncher. He was tough as nails, keeping his train on time and in order. If a passenger needed to be tossed off, he was the man to do so.

 

Third copy went to the Fireman.....who was never as in Hollywood some old gray haired back. He was an apprentice Engineer who had worked his way up out of the Yard.....and had driven Yard engines. He in all weathers when the train was rolling, would creep out on the engine...on the six inch walk way and hold on to the rail to bend over and oil the pistons, with hot lard fat.

 

4th and 5th went to the two breakmen. The last and least readable copy, the CYA one, the Station Manager/Agent (depending on how big the train station was) kept the last one.

 

No engineer ever took a train out with having ridden the route with an Engineer who knew it. He had to learn the markings and speed he was to have there; a distant house, a big rock, a certain tree, to speed up or slow down. Too fast and he derailed, or hit another train. Too slow he got hit by another train.

 

Manifold nibs have been with us at least since then.

 

Before Palmer was a similar system, Business Writing, where carbons were sometimes used. As said, once double sided. The white collar clerk stood 12 hours a day, at a sloped desk. Only bosses had a desk where they could goof off. They did not waste time writing Spenserian, which started in the 1850's. That was show off writing, for signatures or personal letters to other higher class people.

 

In one had to pay to send a boy to a High School, so he could get a job as a clerk, he was taught business writing. By the mid-late 1870's, High School alone was not considered quite enough and Business Collages popped up like McDonalds all over the land. They were up to 12 weeks long.

 

Someone real who tips his hat in my books, did it in six, so didn't have to pay the other six weeks.

Home learning was very big....lots of books on how too, including how to write business script. Those who were not clerks wanted to be. Those that were wanted more responsibility and pay.

A Clerk got paid $3.00 a day, like a Carpenter....but didn't have to work in the sun and rain, and didn't have a slack season. It was the start of Middle Class..........which was why parents spent money sending him to HS........or off to private collage at 14-15.

 

HS was so, so much higher than today's...........even 8th grade one had to have Latin and Algebra. Look at the Kansas 1895 8th grade test to get out of Common School.

[ardene]

Bo Bo,

Could be that the ol' Lady's a regular flex. Owners of 20s-30s Duofolds and other models can chip in their writing experiences (if any) with their pens just in case we reach a common denominator.

I wouldn't expect a '39 Vacumatic to be a nail really. But then, why not? Maybe the priorities of the manufacturer or the public or both changed sometime in the '30s. Maybe the recession played a part in the change.

The 51 makes sense to be a nail. The nib's in a plastic cocoon after all. Some might prefer the more inspiring "the nib of a Parker 51 has a Jedi hood".

So, if I get it right, as tine spreading goes it's regular < semi < maxi < superflex < you've-broken-the-nib-stupid. Regular flex will need double the pressure as on a semi-flex to get the same line width with that semi-flex assuming that the line width was fine, medium, etc. on both nibs. The fancy abstract talk for that is "all other things being equal"...

When you first started using fountain pens, did you know that you're doing something wrong when you got all this springiness out of a semi-flex? Anyway, that's a more interesting way to start than most. The most special thing about the Vector which got me from late elementary school to high school (with a number of infidelities on my part) was the way ink was vivid on the page, smelling distinctively as it dried out.

"I do get flair with no 'thought' or real effort. What is flair....a letter is a bit wider at some point than if written very lightly. It's easy to add a touch to make a letter 1 1/2 to twice as fat as a light down stroke.

Even using a nail or regular flex, some letters or parts of letters are hit harder than others....with semi-flex, that shows". - Ah, yes, I see what you mean. Here's the equivalent with typefaces:

This is called diagonal weight, or stress (hence the title of the picture), because it is as if the o is contorted under something heavy. The humanist typeface Jenson and other typefaces of this category are imitations of the imprint of a pen, usually imitations of the imprint of a pen in the hands of a particular individual with clear and consistent handwriting.

Flair and the such are more in the calligraphy category, which I like to see, but not aspire to learn. I find typography more interesting than penmanship in the aesthetic effects department.

"All three regular flex, Semi&Maxi, are in a 3 X max set". Again I take this to mean that they will flex the same but with decreasing force from regular, to semi, to maxi to get the same line width on the paper - all-other-things-being-equal goes without saying.

Edited July 10, 2018 by ardene

[ardene]

Honeybadgers,

 

 

Thanks for the useful information from your experience with your pens. Thankfully I haven't had to use a carbon paper in ages. If I ever encounter one I'll have to use a ballpoint, which means that the duplicates are going to be filled in, but not the original because I can't get any of the ballpoints around to leave ink on the paper.

[ardene]

""Bo Bo likes obliques" is perhaps the biggest understatement ever made by a fountain pen user."

But they have to be vintage German semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex***; in semi-vintage or modern 200 regular flex just don't do the trick, much less nail oblique.

 

***Germans stayed with semi-flex to @ 1970, a generation or more longer than the Stateside pen makers outside of the rare '50's Sheaffer. Eversharp went from a superflex of the '30 to semi-flex in the '40's; before Parker bought it up and ruined the name. And there was Waterman....who lost it's US market .... why I don't know.

Esterbrook made a hard semi-flex.

 

But US makers went to making stubbed nails in that was cheaper and did give a different pattern. Stubs had been used in the dip pen era also. I'd have to ask Andrew if they were both flexible and manifold stubs.

I like non-oblique German stubbed semi/maxi-semi-flex also...........they make my writing look like I can.

 

Honeybadger is right, a manifold nib is better for carbon paper.....nearly as good as a ball point.

First carbon paper was double sided, so the business kept the original with the copy on the back and sent the copy sheet. Leaving their lawyer with proof the letter was shipped.

 

In the very late 1860's single sided carbon paper came in....before typewriters; which came in with a good working machine in '76 with Remington.

 

Train orders written for every train that stopped was written by the Station Agent/Manager were one original and 5 copies. The Clocks were checked, the conductor and Eagle Eyes matched clocks with the Station Agent.If one of those two's clock was off, it was swapped out on the spot and repaired for free by the train company. Preventing death and destruction.

 

The first copy went to the Captain of the Train, the Conductor who made $5.00 a day....a Engineer made $4.50.

The Conductor had worked his way up from the tracks, and had been a breakman with his Staff of Ignorance, that he turned break wheels with in all weathers, tapped train wagon wheels...seeing if they were sound, and beat up Hobo's who didn't have small money for riding with out a ticket. So a Conductor was not just a ticket puncher. He was tough as nails, keeping his train on time and in order. If a passenger needed to be tossed off, he was the man to do so.

 

Third copy went to the Fireman.....who was never as in Hollywood some old gray haired back. He was an apprentice Engineer who had worked his way up out of the Yard.....and had driven Yard engines. He in all weathers when the train was rolling, would creep out on the engine...on the six inch walk way and hold on to the rail to bend over and oil the pistons, with hot lard fat.

 

4th and 5th went to the two breakmen. The last and least readable copy, the CYA one, the Station Manager/Agent (depending on how big the train station was) kept the last one.

 

No engineer ever took a train out with having ridden the route with an Engineer who knew it. He had to learn the markings and speed he was to have there; a distant house, a big rock, a certain tree, to speed up or slow down. Too fast and he derailed, or hit another train. Too slow he got hit by another train.

 

Manifold nibs have been with us at least since then.

 

Before Palmer was a similar system, Business Writing, where carbons were sometimes used. As said, once double sided. The white collar clerk stood 12 hours a day, at a sloped desk. Only bosses had a desk where they could goof off. They did not waste time writing Spenserian, which started in the 1850's. That was show off writing, for signatures or personal letters to other higher class people.

 

In one had to pay to send a boy to a High School, so he could get a job as a clerk, he was taught business writing. By the mid-late 1870's, High School alone was not considered quite enough and Business Collages popped up like McDonalds all over the land. They were up to 12 weeks long.

 

Someone real who tips his hat in my books, did it in six, so didn't have to pay the other six weeks.

Home learning was very big....lots of books on how too, including how to write business script. Those who were not clerks wanted to be. Those that were wanted more responsibility and pay.

A Clerk got paid $3.00 a day, like a Carpenter....but didn't have to work in the sun and rain, and didn't have a slack season. It was the start of Middle Class..........which was why parents spent money sending him to HS........or off to private collage at 14-15.

 

HS was so, so much higher than today's...........even 8th grade one had to have Latin and Algebra. Look at the Kansas 1895 8th grade test to get out of Common School.

 

 

They still have to learn algebra in school - in Greece and in England & Wales which are the edu systems I know about. In England they avoid to call it by name, "algebra", though. Maybe the students will think it's abracadabra or something.

 

I'm not at all sure that any of my nails will be able to leave an imprint from carbon paper. Anyhow, as I said before, I haven't had to fill in any carbon-copy self-duplicating document in more than fifteen years.

 

Another thing: when on ebay looking for an affordable Duofold I saw some Mabie Todd fountain pens reach sky-high bids. I found online that Mabie Todds have flex. They weren't marketed as such - at least with any emphasis. I didn't pay much attention because I wanted a button filler and these had levers. Does anybody know anything about the alleged flex of Mabie Todds?

Edited July 10, 2018 by ardene

[Bo Bo Olson]

Yes to the last....whoops the one before last.

 

Yes to the superflex or 'flexi' Mabie Todds and the Swans...it became. Swan had a good line of nibs from perhaps nail, regular flex and 'flexi' nibs. Flexi was not very well defined back then....so could have been semi-maxi or superflex of Easy Full Flex..............even then I think Wet Noodle was well in use.

 

I'd been looking very slowly for some 6 months as I learned about Swan. Bidding low enough to lose. In there was much choice, but would need re-sacking and that would need a repair man....complicated guts of the then pens.

I'd decided to bit the bullet and pay top money for a '50's lever torpedo with what I'd call an Easy Full Flex supereflex nib, when I ran into a Degussa nibbed solid No Name in a junk/antique shop not far away. So stopped looking at Swans. The problem with Swan pens was they had to come up with convoluted hard to repair ways of getting around other's patents and so held less ink too.

The '30's Swans are very pretty. But I chose to hunt the '50's Torpedo in I could re-sack it my self.

There were way back then two fully professional repair men selling on a similar platform top quality spiffed up Swans.

There was a fool hunter using a similar platform, selling normally brassed, bitten and bent nib Swans for the same price.

IMO pay the money to a qualified repair man for a refurbished, re-sacked Swan.

Black Bird is the second level.....but one of the very top 3 for beautiful pens I've ever seen was a Black Bird. Jacdaw is the third level....didn't see any that said buy....but I'm not collecting Mabie Todds...once a US company or Swans.

 

I had a real nice marbled green '30's English Wyvern with either maxi or a Easy Full flex, superflex nib. Forget which, but it was a real good nib! I swapped for a BCHR Osmia Supra maxi. So keep that name in mind.

LOM kept me away from looking for another Wyvern.

 

xxxxxx

 

Calligraphy has to be learned and that takes practice..... Being lazy, I still have to take out my dust rust shut book and draw the letter or the parts of the letter....mostly decenders.

 

You certainly do your research....In I doubt if you were into type faces before this thread started....if I'm wrong....still the same props. I'd not run into that before....but then again I don't go to the two writing sections, where penmanship is discussed by those who can.

 

You'd not believe how ignorant of pens we were back in the day of B&W TV....Clean a pen????!!! Why?

As a school kid, my P-45 was probably a nail, but like every single fountain pen I had owned...it was stolen. After 1960 I had an ugly metal capped Esterbrook (Had I one of the pretty ones 1940-60, I might have been able to keep it....but more than likely would not have lasted a week before being stolen. (Too bad we were too poor from me to engrave my name on one of my pens....it's harder to steal a named pen.) Esterbrook (had many nib flexes), Wearever and even Venus had regular flex nibs. Not that I knew it. (Later pens I bought showed me that.)

Same ignorance was there when I bought my semi-nail P-75 @ 1970-71.

 

It wasn't until I got here on FPN a decade ago I learned about nails, regular flex and the fabled semi-flex. The term 'flexi' was use a lot.....superflex much less....and wasn't as well defined as when I got through with it.

That is more a rough guide for 'noobie's in the more superflex one has the more blurred are the flex variants. But is a map and an empty flashlight...one must provide one's own batteries.

 

I'd read of the fabled semi-flex....but was back then in the up to E20 market....and a 140 cost E40!!! .

Then at a flea market, I ran into a Pelikan 140....didn't even know what oblique really meant; much less semi-flex oblique. I had learned to judge a nib for flea market buying by pressing it to my thumb nail. When I did that to that 140, I suddenly knew what all the fuss was about.

I swapped a Franklin Mint Robert E. Lee too fancy for my pocket or use for it and 4 other pens.

The guy was into knives and I'd been looking for him with that pocket knife in it's case in my pocket to what sort of horsetrading we could do....we both went away well satisfied.

 

Actually it was good that it was an OB with a larger sweet spot. Had it been an OF....I'd held it wrong and not liked the scratchy thing.

I had read about canting the nib, but it was not natural to me....the OB was a slight tad scratchy held straight....and even a little cant made it smooth. With OM and OF one has to be much more precise to hit the cant angle....or the nibs are scratchy.

 

I then upped my limit to E30-40 and started chasing semi-flex.....and still ignorant....and am still in different makes. I was a foolish gold snob....believing the myths all 'noobies' buy into. Only gold is good.

I missed many a good bargain before I learned, Osmia and Geha makes steel nibs as good as the gold.............It wasn't until this year I learned Degussa who took over Osmia's nib factory in 1932 for debt, continuing to make the grand steel and gold Osmia nibs, also made the Geha steel and gold nibs.....At some point Bock also made Geha nibs.

Geha nibs are a slight tad 'better' springier...semi-flex than Pelikan. That Degussa made them, explains that.

 

All 'noobies' go crazy at some time with or for definitions.

I had won an uglier up close than across the table black and gold cracked ice. Mandrel wrapped so one saw the wrapping. It was also cork dead....still is.

I had a spare blue clipper with out a screw in nib....and the Rupp nib fit. Rose and black stipped one fit that nib also. The standard no name 'clipper' nib has an imprint of the Super Constellation, called the Connie or clipper. I worked on them.

Is a prettier picture and prettier painted than the USAF gray ones I worked on. EC-121, the first AWAC's plane. Could stay in the air 12 hours, with the wing tanks.

The civilian one.Howard Hughs made this plane along with the Japanese Zero. The reason it's so pretty was each of the frames was of a different size making it streamlined. The DC-4 and later planes all used the cheaper one size frame. IMO the Connie was the prettiest plane ever. The reason it has 3 tails, was the original had a huge tail, too large for any hanger then in use, so they had to change it....and it was the largest plane then made. It sat so high off the ground, also a first for back then.

 

 

 

 

So I was drawn to the 'Clipper' pens by name and beauty....nice second tier pens....not quite so solid as first tier....but I don't nit pick. Had semi-flex nibs. Got to look to see if I can find the picture of the nib to upload.....

 

 

 

Back to the Rupp nib on the Black and Gold cracked ice. Rupp started his nib factory in 1922, and Thomas/Kaweco has a two meter square picture in his pen museum of Rupp and his workers, he's dressed just like and is just as dirty as his workers. He started making nibs in Heidelberg, in 1922 stopped in 1970, like Osmia (i922). Bock started in Heidelberg in 1938.

 

I screwed that nib onto the empty blue Clipper. It certainly was maxi-semi-flex...but not quite superflex. I had one of those....what later I termed Easy Full Flex, the first of three stages of superflex.

For three days I walked around in circles muttering that certainly is a maxi-semi-flex nib. :eureka:

Then I realized that might be it's own flex. Having a nib to compare and checking out other pens, found I my Pelikan 400nn, my Osmia Supra nibs were all maxi-semi-flex. Total of 5 pens. And I'd not noticed that much difference....but I wasn't looking for it.

Others had stated that they had flexier semi-flex nibs.........but perhaps they didn't have as many of the little buggers as I did....or hadn't put on their Sherlock Holmes hat....the magnifying glass didn't help....could be some Dutch tobacco helped. I wouldn't put it past me.

 

It was then I came up with my system of 1/2s for the various flex rates.

 

That Rupp nib is still the most flexible of my maxi's.

As 'noobie' of course I went overboard .....

It don't work, in it's too subjunctive and one does need to have enough nibs to even start being so OCD/AR. I had five maxi-semi-flex then....now have 16.

All my semi-flex all clumped in the middle....no big variation between them. Have 26 now that are very much the same....and one that lays between semi&maxi.

But there was more variation....if went OCD on it.

I had two that I rated as F-1, two that I rated as F- 1-1/4th and that Rupp nib still my most flexible of my maxi's at F-1 1/2.

There was still that large enough difference between maxi-semi-flex and the first stage of Superflex; Easy Full flex.

 

From maxi up, there will be more flex rate difference than between normal clump together regular flex and semi-flex. Maxi and above can only be horseshoe close to the flex rates of my system. But at least I have a system and it works for me.....beats the hell out of hand grenade close of 'Flex/flexi'.

 

Everyone starts off ignorant, and here it's fun to learn, in there are no tests.

I was lucky living in Germany and getting many of my pens when they were affordable. I certainly couldn't afford 27 semi-flex and 16 maxi-semi-flex and a mix of both in Obliques (16) that I have. Including in 15&30 degree grinds OBB, OB, OM, OF.

I also have a Pelikan 500 in OBBB in 30 degree girnd maxi....but don't have any more OBBB's nor will I ever look for any. It takes 2/3de-3/4ths a page to write a legal signature with it. A pure signature nib.

Because I have so many I was first to notice...or the first I noticed, that found the 30 degree grinds on those vintage German obliques. Outside of that Pelikan 500 which I'm sure was factory, I often wonder in no one else has any info on the 30 degree grinds....or not that I read...and I'm sure I would have; that in the fabled Old Corner Pen Shoppe, with it's well trained personnel , that a clerk would ask, "Do you wish a bit more Oblique?" And then go in the back room and grind him double.

 

I've not run into any then pens from the wild in 20-22 degree grinds. If so, would expect that to be a modern adjustment, either at home or by a nibmeister.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[SchaumburgSwan]

Hi,

 

well, last year I decided not to buy a new Pelikan M805 but a flock of Mabie Todd Swan pens instead.

I like the pens (mostly made in the 1930s) a lot and every single nib (I have about 12 by now) is made very well. They are really great. :-)

 

Mabie Todd offered a very wide range of nib designs in each size.

But there is no information on the nib or pen what kind of nib is build in.

Unlike Osmia, Böhler or Pelikan you have to guess the nib when looking at mediocre photos on auction sides...

An if a writing sample is visible, you don't know how much the nib was mistreated making it.

 

Anyway I had many lucky surprises...

 

Best regards

Jens

 

Yes to the last....whoops the one before last.

 

Yes to the superflex or 'flexi' Mabie Todds and the Swans...it became. Swan had a good line of nibs from perhaps nail, regular flex and 'flexi' nibs. Flexi was not very well defined back then....so could have been semi-maxi or superflex of Easy Full Flex..............even then I think Wet Noodle was well in use.

 

I'd been looking very slowly for some 6 months as I learned about Swan. Bidding low enough to lose. In there was much choice, but would need re-sacking and that would need a repair man....complicated guts of the then pens.

I'd decided to bit the bullet and pay top money for a '50's lever torpedo with what I'd call an Easy Full Flex supereflex nib, when I ran into a Degussa nibbed solid No Name in a junk/antique shop not far away. So stopped looking at Swans. The problem with Swan pens was they had to come up with convoluted hard to repair ways of getting around other's patents and so held less ink too.

The '30's Swans are very pretty. But I chose to hunt the '50's Torpedo in I could re-sack it my self.

There were way back then two fully professional repair men selling on a similar platform top quality spiffed up Swans.

There was a fool hunter using a similar platform, selling normally brassed, bitten and bent nib Swans for the same price.

IMO pay the money to a qualified repair man for a refurbished, re-sacked Swan.

Black Bird is the second level.....but one of the very top 3 for beautiful pens I've ever seen was a Black Bird. Jacdaw is the third level....didn't see any that said buy....but I'm not collecting Mabie Todds...once a US company or Swans.

(...)

Edited July 10, 2018 by SchaumburgSwan

[ardene]

To be frank, I'm insatiably curious about what people can do and what life has to offer. I like looking up information. It's also a nice escape from the daily routine. I also work in education, so doing some research comes naturally. The internet helps a lot as well; there are wonders a few clicks away.

 

I've started looking into typography a couple of years ago. I like variety, so I looked up various fonts to use when I type stuff in the computer - but I change the font to Times New Roman or such before I send texts to people- and I got hooked. I don't know how to set up a page the old-fashioned way, but I've seen documentaries, read blogs on typesetting, and stuff like that, so I understand the basics. I'd read somewhere that "o" in particular needs to have thicker sides to appear like a perfect circle to the eye. Then I googled for "o" in typefaces and found the graphic along with the terminology.

 

Knowing stuff is not only understanding them in your mind. Having a taste of how stuff feel is very important, too. So, yes, fountain pens need to spend time with them. I didn't know about the existence of obliques until three weeks ago. I still don't know exactly how it feels to write with one. I'd heard about "wow - flex!" before, but I didn't pay much attention to figure out how pens do it.

 

I'm kind of cheapskate about the luxuries I allow myself these days not just because of money concerns, but of time concerns as well. You see, I want to be able to watch the news, documentaries, tv series, read books, play flight simulator (more on that below!) and other things in my free time. I also like to write stuff with my pens. The fewer I have the more I can use each one of them. And they're just pens after all. Another thing I'd read somewhere. The American 19th century chess prodigy Paul Morphy stopped playing chess at some point. People were persistent that he kept playing and when he refused they would tell him what a noble game this is, how significant, how admirable, how full of strategy and the like. He responded "it's only a game".

 

The money you allow yourself to spend on pens isn't excessive. It depends, of course, on how often you buy pens. Information like that about the Osmia and Geha nibs does come after rubbing your nose a lot into a topic. I didn't know about Geha pens until I googled the brand I saw in your post. I still know next to nothing about the colours and styles of the vast majority of German pens, old or new, Montblanc included.

 

About the pen naivete, I and other people I know who used fountain pens were exactly as you describe. The first time I figured out that a fountain pen might need cleaning was when Quink black clogged the flighter vector you've seen next to the Duo. That was around 1998. I filled the sink with water, nothing. I used one of the converters that were in the box with it to pump water in and out of the section, which worked. Then I got the section under the tap. Then I left it aside for a long period when I used plastic Frontiers. I think I've inked it three or four times since 1998. It's not inked at this moment. The reason I keep it aside is because it is a gift from my father.

 

I am extremely honoured to have the privilege to converse with the instrumental driving force behind the clarification of the vague concepts around flex! I am a trained biologist, then continued with philosophy (philosophy of science and bioethics mainly), so I can tell you that clarifying what words mean and how to appropriately refer to this or that phenomenon is the beginning of a lot fortunate coincidences. I'm teaching philosophy now.

 

To the connie now! (The clipper might generically mean plane having intercontinental legs, but I don't think that the connies were called clippers; pan am called its planes clipper-this and clipper-that, so maybe the name was applied to the Lockheed Constellation by association). Yes, I know all about the connies (Hughes didn't design it, Lockheed did on TWA's specifications, he was just the person with the most TWA stock) and it's my favourite passenger plane from thee props! I fly models of these all the time! Some pics of a model of an early 749.

 

 

Cockpit

 

 

Flight engineer's panel from the captain's seat

 

 

I love this plane. This model has in-depth simulation of systems. It's amazing. I have other models of later versions of the connie as well, including AWACS planes. It's a legend! Tell me more about your work on these! And about nibs which would fall from cruising altitude -after decompression presumably- from one of these planes and still write.

[ardene]

Hi,

 

well, last year I decided not to buy a new Pelikan M805 but a flock of Mabie Todd Swan pens instead.

I like the pens (mostly made in the 1930s) a lot and every single nib (I have about 12 by now) is made very well. They are really great. :-)

 

Mabie Todd offered a very wide range of nib designs in each size.

But there is no information on the nib or pen, what kind of nib is build in.

Unlike Osmia, Böhler or Pelikan you have to guess the nib when looking at mediocre photos on auction sides...

An if a writing sample is visible, you don't know how much the nib was mistreated making it.

 

Anyway I had many lucky surprises...

 

Best reguards

Jens

 

 

Thank you very much for the detailed reply Jens. I'm glad you've had many lucky surprises with Mabie Todd pens!

 

Best regards,

Antonis

[Bo Bo Olson]

We called them Connies.

The Super Constellation is the stretched version.

 

We had black control wheels on the yoke,...different push button placement for on and off of the autopilot...and a bit more instruments to the padded side; which wasn't there by us. The flight engineer picture made my homesick....even though I had little to do with that out side a couple gauges.

Any time I really want too I can drive some 40 minutes the the Sinsheim auto and flight museum where they have both a Super Connie and a Gooney Bird/DC-3/C-47 I also worked on.

 

I was electrical mechanical, repairing the autopilot and accompanying servo units. Everything but Com seemed to flow through autopilot. Vacuum tube still.....tested on unseen transistor modern ones for promotion. The first computer I worked on was 9"x12x18, 40 pounds with 6 tubes and six 10 click dials one set up to do what one wanted it to do, that was normally set by the radio operator if any changes were needed, by manual, which was seldom, that fed into the PB-10 autopilot. The occasionally one step in repair was knowing where to and how hard to kick the thing when it was in the plane.

(I do not like fly by wire. I want the pilot to be able to turn off the autopilot, take the yoke in both hands, put his feet on the instatement panel and pull like hell if needed.The first flight with passengers of a fly by wire with it's three autopilot system, crashed on take off, another decided it was time to land....and nose dived into the ground with passengers, and a third also flew it's self into the ground. The first plane had the best French pilots and the French have good pilots. I also don't like two engine jet planes, no matter how powerful. Three is the minimum that I'd fly had I a choice.Which I don't.

I know about flying with a bad motor or two. I got a war story on that, and tales of if a EC-121 goes down....grab the bathroom door.)

 

Should a pilot come into the maintenance briefing just after landing, pale faced, a motor fell off, or such. Should he come in red faced....his autopilot stopped working and he actually had to fly the plane....the redder the face, the sooner into flight it happened.

 

The C-47 had a wind driven gyro (8,000 RPM vs 24,000 for the electrical ones), and a hydraulic autopilot that was always broke. It was the first plane with two autopilots systems. The big rudder flap of the DC-3 is secured with a bungee cord. The plane trimmed up near perfect...perfect said the pilots. If the regular autopilot broke down, they wrapped the bungee cord around the yoke and hooked it to the window after trimming up the plane. It's amazing what lazy will do for you. Those pilots were use to flying their plane and it was so old, none complained.....but then again they didn't have to fly it 12 hours long, like the Connie.

 

Perhaps it was heard one time or another, myths were harder to disprove back in the old days before the net.

I did read Howard Hughs did have much to do with the design...appears less than I thought......"Howard Hughes often gets credit for designing the graceful Lockheed Constellation. While he did propose specifications for the aircraft, it was the manufacturer’s Robert Gross, along with aerodynamicists Clarence ‘Kelly’ Johnson and Hal Hibbard, who actually brought the airplane from concept to final design." It was his money that allowed much more expensive different aerodynamically sized frames to be made, in he wanted the fastest passenger ship. The DC-4/6 used mostly the same size size frame which was cheaper.

 

 

(we didn't worry about that back when I flew on...(occasionally...outside of TDY) and worked on them).....he was also a plane designer...or had good impute, having won many pylon races in the '30s before he crashed more than once and once real hard.

He did more than invent a bra for Rita Hayworth.

 

You are right the flying boat of Pan Am was called the Clipper first, but the Connie was also called the Clipper by civilians. It was IKE's AF 1.

 

Depends on what one reads....I had read he his racing design sold it to Japan....but in Wiki, he denies that....which of course he would.

 

""""Aviation historians have posited that the H-1 Racer may have inspired later radial engine fighters such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt (((If so, then P-40 and Brewster Buffalo also....and Italian planes were similar and nearly as early if not earlier))) and the Focke-Wulf Fw 190.^[7] After the war, Hughes further claimed that "it was quite apparent to everyone that the Japanese Zero fighter had been copied from the Hughes H-1 Racer." He noted both the wing shape, the tail design and the general similarity of the Zero and his racer.^{[8][N 1]} Jiro Horikoshi, designer of the Mitsubishi Zero strongly denied the allegation of the Hughes H-1 influencing the design of the Japanese fighter aircraft.^{[9]"""" The last is BS.}

^{Everyone copied what ever flew fast.}

Edited July 11, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson