Jump to content

The Fountain Pen Network uses (functional) cookies. Read the FPN Privacy Policy for more info.  To remove this message, please click here to accept the use of cookies


Registration on the Fountain Pen Network

Dearest Visitor of the little Fountain Pen Nut house on the digital prairie,

Due to the enormous influx of spammers, it is no longer possible to handle valditions in the traditional way. For registrations we therefore kindly and respectfully request you to send an email with your request to our especially created email address. This email address is register at fountainpennetwork dot com. Please include your desired user name, and after validation we will send you a return email containing the validation key, normally wiithin a week.

Thank you very much in advance!
The FPN Admin Team






Photo

Help! How Do You Hold Your Fountain Pen?

fountain pen nib angle hold

  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#41 cattar

cattar

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,091 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 08 July 2018 - 21:21

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.



Sponsored Content

#42 ardene

ardene

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 926 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 08 July 2018 - 21:55

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.

 

 

That's sensible. It also fits with the reports of graphologists that there is no foolproof way to figure out whether something was written with the left or right hand or that two different samples of writing come from one ambidextrous person writing with different hands without other samples with known origin from the people in question.



#43 Bo Bo Olson

Bo Bo Olson

    Pen Dust

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,551 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 July 2018 - 22:56

For a tid bit, President Garfield who was assassinated in 1881, taking months to die; being in the daily prayers of a Nation; could write Greek with one hand and Latin with the other at the same time.

He was self taught being a long cabin type teacher, before getting out into the world; becoming a General, Governor before becoming President. 


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#44 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:02

Yes, of course, there's no need to say more about the plot.

 

The quink halo has been witnessed personally by me, and it's also immortalised in Wikipedia in the photo in the Features section. The blot was apparently created after dropping some blue-black(?) ink on a thick paper saturated with water with a pipette or by touching briefly a pen on the paper.

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Quink#Features

 

Other blacks/blue-blacks have yellow pigment inside, too. But this might not really matter; since you're writing fiction there's no need to be 100% forensically accurate. Check this thread out for the yellows in the black:

 

http://www.fountainp...ect-blue-black/

 

There might be other similar threads.

 

I might just write something at some point! A tweet-size (up to 240 characters) story might go like this:

 

The torch pointed down the bow. Debris soup pulled gently aside. Pulverised plane, endless sparkling who-knows-what, swayed by breeze. A sneaker, a teddy bear, a passport. “There’s nobody here now” he exhaled, but kept looking.

 

I've tried to show rather than bluntly tell. Can you figure out what might be going on there?

 

You're right, it does leave a Yellow halo around the blot. I am going to take out my papers with dried quink ink and dampen the paper to see if the same pattern is produced with previously dried ink. 

 

I cannot so easily explain my obsession for being forensically accurate, but it has probably emerged after watching Christopher Nolan and David Fincher's films (like Dunkirk, and The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo). In these films, most of the details are represented so accurately, you end up greatly appreciating the attention to detail. In a sense, forensic accuracy immortalises a story - because then it's not simple 'fiction' anymore. And I take this a step further in my book by connecting everything to very real-world events. The ending, though happy, leaves the reader with some grim implications regarding the government and surveillance, and the nature of humans. I want to leave the reader scared and wondering if the events in the book really happened - for all they might know, it's a history lesson.

 

That little passage is intriguing. I like it! I can tell what is going on - A passenger plane has crashed into the water? What's confirmed is that it's a plane crash, and the search for bodies is ongoing.



#45 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:14

 

I don't know about pressures and angles, but not all lefties hook their hand above the writing line, and not all of them use the same position at all times. 

http://www.iampeth.c...-handed-writing

http://handedness.or...te.html#diagram
http://www.clas.co.u...ft-handers.html

 

The last link is directed at calligraphers, not really about normal handwriting, but may still be instructive.  I'm married to a leftie, and he sometimes uses the hook position, sometimes the one shown in figure two of the second link.  I had to ask him, though - I wouldn't have known just from the many samples of his writing I've seen over the past few decades. :)

 

I've not had time to inspect that sheet of paper to see whether there are discernible differences in pressure or nib rotation, btw; I'm hoping actually to find time to ask my husband whether he can tell, since it seems that to have someone other than the writer find the differences (if any) would be a closer scenario to the one in your plot than just doing it myself, but he's been busy all day.

 

Jenny

 

Ah, I see - that is interesting! I have personally known around three lefties in my life, and all three used to hook their hand above the line - using the "Under the line" hold would be uncomfortable in academic environments because it would require a very specific slant to the table that isn't generally available. 

 

Oh,you're married to one! I believe it would take a trained eye to notice? Lefties are a little scarce in 'Rounding' their handwritings while using the hook method I've noticed - if you could, and I hope it's not too much to ask, get a sample of his handwriting, that would be great - with the hook method and without. 

 

Great idea about using a lefty, with two styles of hold.

 

I know, right! It's a smart idea. I think ardene was the one who recommended it! But I bet there must be a way to find out who's a lefty and who's not - I'm going to go look for lefty handwriting samples.



#46 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:43

No, the lefty ideas don't work.

Lefties are not rare in cultures that don't suppress them. Generally lefties are 10%-15% of human population.

Some lefties and some righties smear ink on the page. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do.

Lefties' handwriting does not show distinct attributes different from righties' handwriting.

Lefties and righties who are used to writing in different hand positions either don't vary their writing style or vary it in a way that's recognizable to those who know them well. It's the same as amberlea's different scripts.

Some lefties and some righties use more pressure to write. It's not lefty specific and it's not something that all lefties do. Lefties do not automatically scratch the page. Some lefties, like some righties, write with a very light hand and use very fine nibs and edged nibs.

 

H'm, I see.

 

But I believe that smearing is very lefty specific! In fact, if a writer is consistently smearing ink, I'd say with 98% certainty that he is a lefty - no right-handed hold is such that the hand moves over already written words. But I'll keep looking - let's see!



#47 cattar

cattar

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,091 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:57

Righties tend to 'believe' a lot of things about lefties.
As OP, you're going for forensic accuracy.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.
Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum.



#48 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 04:46

For a tid bit, President Garfield who was assassinated in 1881, taking months to die; being in the daily prayers of a Nation; could write Greek with one hand and Latin with the other at the same time.

He was self taught being a long cabin type teacher, before getting out into the world; becoming a General, Governor before becoming President. 

 

Oh? Two different languages with two different hands! That must take a lot of practice. 

 

Leonardo Da Vinci was Ambidextrous as well - And he could write 'Mirrored' 



#49 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 04:51

Righties tend to 'believe' a lot of things about lefties.
As OP, you're going for forensic accuracy.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.
Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum.

 

Oh?

Another example of Speculation being disproven with facts. I will look at the other threads regarding smearing on this thread - this can prove to be a very important point of the plot cause Smearing can give away who the author of the note was!! This is exciting, thanks Cattar.

 

I do believe smearing also depends on the kind of ink used - I could find a situation/combination of inks - that when mixed don't dry out quickly. Perfect! And also, of course, I better look into weather, paper and whatnot that could affect how the ink dries.


Edited by fountainphreak, 09 July 2018 - 04:52.


#50 Bo Bo Olson

Bo Bo Olson

    Pen Dust

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,551 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 09 July 2018 - 09:56

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 09 July 2018 - 09:59.

German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#51 ardene

ardene

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 926 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 09 July 2018 - 12:25

 

You're right, it does leave a Yellow halo around the blot. I am going to take out my papers with dried quink ink and dampen the paper to see if the same pattern is produced with previously dried ink. 

 

I cannot so easily explain my obsession for being forensically accurate, but it has probably emerged after watching Christopher Nolan and David Fincher's films (like Dunkirk, and The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo). In these films, most of the details are represented so accurately, you end up greatly appreciating the attention to detail. In a sense, forensic accuracy immortalises a story - because then it's not simple 'fiction' anymore. And I take this a step further in my book by connecting everything to very real-world events. The ending, though happy, leaves the reader with some grim implications regarding the government and surveillance, and the nature of humans. I want to leave the reader scared and wondering if the events in the book really happened - for all they might know, it's a history lesson.

 

That little passage is intriguing. I like it! I can tell what is going on - A passenger plane has crashed into the water? What's confirmed is that it's a plane crash, and the search for bodies is ongoing.

 

 

You guessed right about the passage. The shiny floating things are cabin insulation. (I've had to somehow live up to being called creative by you earlier).

 

I just brought up the left-right hand debate, the idea of a leftie with two writing style's is Bo Bo's.

 

It's interesting that you want to make it historical fiction. I like such books. 

 

I don't have experience with a variety of inks to help you further with any possible identifiable characteristics of a given particular ink versus the others. Of course, inks are for the past 100 or so years painstakingly designed to have as few quirks as possible.

 

Smearing seems to be a promising way to go with this.


Edited by ardene, 09 July 2018 - 12:27.


#52 cattar

cattar

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,091 posts
  • Location:PNW

Posted 09 July 2018 - 15:12

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.

 

Nope.

 

Overwriting and sidewriting don't cause smearing or require super-fast-drying inks.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.
Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum. Even though it's not a problem for you, it is for some other righties.

 

The challenge for lefties is all the rightie talk about how the world works for lefties.

 

 

eta. now back to the regularly scheduled thread.


Edited by cattar, 09 July 2018 - 15:57.


#53 knarflj

knarflj

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 573 posts
  • Location:Michigan, USA

Posted 09 July 2018 - 19:52

 

The lucky point for me is that the detective and the person who wrote the note know each other intimately, and hence obviously they are familiar with each other's handwriting - and of course, the plot to resolve the detective has to realise this before too long. Yes, I believe some styles like your Printed Straight (2nd), and extremely Wide and Slanted (2nd last) do a terrific job of throwing one off the scent, even if only briefly.

 

What I am interested in knowing is, if and only if you have the time to spend on it, whether you used any detectable pressure variations across your handwriting styles - this can be checked by feeling the back of the paper or holding it against the light, but I suspect there won't be any because any experienced writer will use the light hold as a rule.

 

The other thing I wanted to know is whether the part of the nib that scratched the paper changed significantly (like the left side in one hold vs the right side in another).

 

We laughed a little at the idea that my upright print might make anyone think someone else had written something, since that's my default script when either taking notes or writing anything for other people to read. :)  My husband says the cursive script near the middle of the page is the one most likely to make him stop and think (this surprised me a bit, because I use that script a lot; but I realized upon reflection that I mostly use it for things like rough drafts, not for communicating to others) - but if he found something in our house written in that script, he'd probably still think first either of me or one of our daughters, not of a stranger.

 

Before I showed that page to him, it occurred to me that both the paper used and the writing surface could affect evidence of pressure.  I had used a fairly heavy paper (HP 32lb) for the musings I posted earlier, so I tried writing out the opening two lines of Richard III in three different scripts with two different monoline nibs on two different writing surfaces (a glass table, and the same table with a writing mat under the paper), on cheap filler paper.  Neither of us could see any indications or pressure, pressure differences, or differences in the way the nib moved on or scratched the paper, either on the original page of musings, or on the second sheet - no difference evident with the different surfaces, either.  Not much joy for you there, I'm afraid.

 

 

Ah, I see - that is interesting! I have personally known around three lefties in my life, and all three used to hook their hand above the line - using the "Under the line" hold would be uncomfortable in academic environments because it would require a very specific slant to the table that isn't generally available. 

 

Oh,you're married to one! I believe it would take a trained eye to notice? Lefties are a little scarce in 'Rounding' their handwritings while using the hook method I've noticed - if you could, and I hope it's not too much to ask, get a sample of his handwriting, that would be great - with the hook method and without. 

 

 

I'm not sure about the "under the line" hold being particularly difficult for a leftie in an academic environment; I think it's mostly a matter of turning the paper in the opposite direction from a right-hander.  But I will ask my husband.  I will also ask whether he can spare a few minutes to supply samples of over- and under-writing for you.

 

Jenny


"To read without also writing is to sleep." - St. Jerome

#54 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:04

One of the main three ways lefties hold a pen, want super fast drying inks.....because of smearing.

I'd WOG most righties don't worry much about smearing. I don't.

So lefty and righty underwriters don't have to worry about smearing.

Yeah - exactly!



#55 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:07

 

 

You guessed right about the passage. The shiny floating things are cabin insulation. (I've had to somehow live up to being called creative by you earlier).

 

I just brought up the left-right hand debate, the idea of a leftie with two writing style's is Bo Bo's.

 

It's interesting that you want to make it historical fiction. I like such books. 

 

I don't have experience with a variety of inks to help you further with any possible identifiable characteristics of a given particular ink versus the others. Of course, inks are for the past 100 or so years painstakingly designed to have as few quirks as possible.

 

Smearing seems to be a promising way to go with this.

 

There is indeed something beautiful about historical fiction - the fact that all the facts have been painstakingly put together for accuracy - it never gets boring!

 

Yeah, i've been googling different inks and their properties in an attempt to grasp what factors cause might result in smearing - thanks for all of your help!



#56 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:08

 

Nope.

 

Overwriting and sidewriting don't cause smearing or require super-fast-drying inks.

Smearing is related to ink composition, wetness of flow, and paper absorbency or coating.
Smearing (by righties) is a constant topic on this forum. Even though it's not a problem for you, it is for some other righties.

 

The challenge for lefties is all the rightie talk about how the world works for lefties.

 

 

eta. now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

 

Hmm. Is that so?



#57 fountainphreak

fountainphreak

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:22

 

We laughed a little at the idea that my upright print might make anyone think someone else had written something, since that's my default script when either taking notes or writing anything for other people to read. :)  My husband says the cursive script near the middle of the page is the one most likely to make him stop and think (this surprised me a bit, because I use that script a lot; but I realized upon reflection that I mostly use it for things like rough drafts, not for communicating to others) - but if he found something in our house written in that script, he'd probably still think first either of me or one of our daughters, not of a stranger.

 

Before I showed that page to him, it occurred to me that both the paper used and the writing surface could affect evidence of pressure.  I had used a fairly heavy paper (HP 32lb) for the musings I posted earlier, so I tried writing out the opening two lines of Richard III in three different scripts with two different monoline nibs on two different writing surfaces (a glass table, and the same table with a writing mat under the paper), on cheap filler paper.  Neither of us could see any indications or pressure, pressure differences, or differences in the way the nib moved on or scratched the paper, either on the original page of musings, or on the second sheet - no difference evident with the different surfaces, either.  Not much joy for you there, I'm afraid.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the "under the line" hold being particularly difficult for a leftie in an academic environment; I think it's mostly a matter of turning the paper in the opposite direction from a right-hander.  But I will ask my husband.  I will also ask whether he can spare a few minutes to supply samples of over- and under-writing for you.

 

Jenny

 

Yes, a person who knows how to write with a fountain will leave no pressure marks - that much I've come to realise because the hold is really pressure-free unlike that of a ball point pen, for example. Thank you so much for confirming this, though.

 

The idea that your cursive made your husband momentarily stop and think is a good sign for my case.

 

H'm, you may be right about this - may just be a matter of tilting the page in a certain direction. 

 

Thank you so much for all the effort you are going through to help me out, I really, really appreciate it! Especially the fact that you checked the pressure and indentations using not just separate handwritings, but also a hard and soft surface under the paper. It means a lot to me. 

 

--If you still have the paper, try to feel what you have written with your finger from the backside of he page, I wonder if that might reveal something? Because on the medium size paper I've tried writing on, there have been marks. Maybe it's just the paper, or maybe it's because of the fact that my fountain pen is rather heavy.

 

Thank You!







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: fountain, pen, nib, angle, hold



Sponsored Content




|