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Waterman's Pink Nib - Length Differences

waterman pink nib

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#1 Strelnikoff

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 20:45

Hello everyone,

 

I am tempted by one Waterman's #7 pen with PINK nib. I mean - I'm tempted to shell out $$$$ and finally get one. I own #7 with YELLOW nib, #5 with RED nib, and several other vintage Waterman's with different nibs.

 

While I was looking at the pen with PINK nib, one thing occurred to me - the tines seemed shorter than what I've seen on a typical PINK nib. Then I've googled images and some previous examples of pens I haven't bought, and I've noticed that some have shorter and some have longer tines. In fact, I thought some nibs (current on sale included) may have their nibs cut (???).

 

Does anyone has any information regarding this? Did Waterman's have different designs of pink nibs i.e. were there any evolution?

 

What I'm worried about is that a nib with PINK inscription may be "corrected" by cutting down the tines - if they've got damaged. So there may be many pink nibs out there with correct metallurgy but incorrect dimensions, being sold for a hefty price as if they were in the original shape and form.

 

Below is some clarification of my question, based on the photos I've found on the internet - one of them is currently on sale...

 

Picture 1 (bellow) - what I consider a proper PINK nib, with tines length and tip shape as designed (I'll call this a benchmark example)

 

PINK 3.JPG

 

Picture 2 (bellow) - another example of a pink nib which is arguably (?) benchmark design

 

PINK 2.JPG

 

Picture 3 (bellow) - "yard find" a bit dirty nib, but it seems accurate

 

pink.jpg

 

Pictures 4 and 5 (bellow) - following are two examples of nibs marked "pink" but... the shape is different. Shoulders are wider, tines are shorter... first one I was contemplating to buy but I am not sure... very pricey for something that may have been altered.

 

PINK 1.jpg

 

PINK 4.jpg

 

 

Another concern of mine is - if we assume that someone has "fixed" damaged pink nib, thus grinding down easily damaged tines, then re-tipped ... the metal alloy may still allow for extra-flexibility but if the design has changed, using this nib as intended may be pushing it too far - to the damage. It may became similar to RED nib and... well, hence the question and topic for a debate, before I decide to spend money.

 

Thanks!



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#2 sidthecat

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 15:37

Ah! First World problems!
Do I assume correctly that you’re not in a position to try out this expensive pen?
It sounds like all you can do is cross your fingers and buy the thing...or not.

My own experience is that there’s some dandy nibs on old Conklins.

#3 fountainpen51

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 20:10

If what you are looking for is a rose because it will be a magnificent "flexible wet noodle", it is not like that. Although they were made to have flexibility, it does not mean that they are all the same, even semi-flexible, not even the Waterman Black Nib. If you are looking for flexible qualities, I recommend you to someone who really knows you, like Mauricio Aguilar, but if you want to add a Pink  to the collection, ask them to show you the inner part of the expanded tip, if it is modified. It is very possible that you see any alteration.
 
As a rule, the more shoulders, the less flexibility, but it is not a certain science.


#4 Strelnikoff

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 00:55

Ah! First World problems!
Do I assume correctly that you’re not in a position to try out this expensive pen?
It sounds like all you can do is cross your fingers and buy the thing...or not.

My own experience is that there’s some dandy nibs on old Conklins.

 

 

Not sure how's this a first world problem. I'm asking - in the correct forum sub-section "Of Nibs & Tines" - if there's anyone who know's - were there any design differences in Waterman's PINK nib or - some of them we see today on sale, have been worked on, shortened etc. And if that is the case - does that affects it's performance, given the assumption it may have been a special alloy. 

 

You assume correctly - I am not in the position to try this pen. It's been sold on eBay, may have been already sold for that matter. So far, the only way for me to try PINK nibs was - on pen show(s). I was always curious about this nib, but it was "maybe later" thing. If it was 100-300 bucks, I would cross my fingers and hope for the best. I was specific about this pen and nib, I am not interested about Conklin as an alternative.


Edited by Strelnikoff, 06 May 2018 - 05:55.


#5 Strelnikoff

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 01:02

 

If what you are looking for is a rose because it will be a magnificent "flexible wet noodle", it is not like that. Although they were made to have flexibility, it does not mean that they are all the same, even semi-flexible, not even the Waterman Black Nib. If you are looking for flexible qualities, I recommend you to someone who really knows you, like Mauricio Aguilar, but if you want to add a Pink  to the collection, ask them to show you the inner part of the expanded tip, if it is modified. It is very possible that you see any alteration.
 
As a rule, the more shoulders, the less flexibility, but it is not a certain science.

 

 

Thank you for your suggestion, I will contact Mauricio. These being rare nibs, there are not that many people who owned more than one. 

I have many vintage and modern flexible nibs and you are right - even with those specifically designed for flexibility - not all are the same. Sometimes even those that have all specifics of a flexible nib (they look like flexible nibs) are semi-flex at the best. And some that look fairly rigid - may be very flexible. The material (alloy) play it's part. 



#6 fountainpen51

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 10:04

 

Thank you for your suggestion, I will contact Mauricio. These being rare nibs, there are not that many people who owned more than one. 

I have many vintage and modern flexible nibs and you are right - even with those specifically designed for flexibility - not all are the same. Sometimes even those that have all specifics of a flexible nib (they look like flexible nibs) are semi-flex at the best. And some that look fairly rigid - may be very flexible. The material (alloy) play it's part. 

Exactly, to be able to know, the best thing is to be able to prove it.
This year I have seen around 7 Pink selling, have patience and yours will appear if you want to add it to your collection.
I got mine, and although it is not the most flexible I have, in terms of tip opening, it goes XF / F to BB (also I do not usually pass 1mm) has an excellent snapback.
With Mauricio you have the guarantee of knowing what you buy, now he have raised new pens.

Edited by fountainpen51, 06 May 2018 - 10:05.


#7 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 11:16

Mauricio, will have spent a lot of time perfectly setting the nib and feed to the pen, so it is as good as it can be.

It's a lot of fiddly work, I'd be in a nightmare, if I was so foolish to 're-set' either of the two 52's I have from him.

There is a lot of variation in Superflex, more in Wet Noodles than in Easy Full Flex; the step under Wet Noodle.

I only have three Wet Noodles.....my best is a Soennecken.

I do have a small (#2?) loose gold Degussa wet noodle. That problem would be fitting a feed and pen to it. If I did have a pen and feed for it, I'd send it to Mauricio to have perfect fiddly work done. :)


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#8 Strelnikoff

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 18:55

 

Exactly, to be able to know, the best thing is to be able to prove it.
This year I have seen around 7 Pink selling, have patience and yours will appear if you want to add it to your collection.
I got mine, and although it is not the most flexible I have, in terms of tip opening, it goes XF / F to BB (also I do not usually pass 1mm) has an excellent snapback.
With Mauricio you have the guarantee of knowing what you buy, now he have raised new pens.

 

 

Now that you've mentioned it - It's not that I'm after a nib that open's up to wide. In fact, I have few of those nibs and I'm not using them often. Like - nice to have and that's all. What I'm looking for is that elasticity, perfect snap-back and ... decent flexiblity.

 

Two days ago I've finally applied a sac to one Waterman 94 with #4 nib - and what a nib! From what I've seen and tried (Pink and Yellow nibs) this is the closest to that design and feel. It has excellent responsiveness, just the right amount of flex and elasticity, excellent snap-back and ... I'd say one of the best flexible nibs I own. And it is very similar to PINK. 

 

Well, eventually it will happen :)  



#9 Strelnikoff

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 19:05

Mauricio, will have spent a lot of time perfectly setting the nib and feed to the pen, so it is as good as it can be.

It's a lot of fiddly work, I'd be in a nightmare, if I was so foolish to 're-set' either of the two 52's I have from him.

There is a lot of variation in Superflex, more in Wet Noodles than in Easy Full Flex; the step under Wet Noodle.

I only have three Wet Noodles.....my best is a Soennecken.

I do have a small (#2?) loose gold Degussa wet noodle. That problem would be fitting a feed and pen to it. If I did have a pen and feed for it, I'd send it to Mauricio to have perfect fiddly work done. :)

 

Thanks!

I've kind of do some work myself, and then - leave whatever seems tricky. I have some pens in dire need of some adjustments so I'll contact him. 

How do you like Soennecken's? 



#10 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 22:19

I only have one Soennecken. It is smooth from XXF to BBB.

One Waterman 52, is what I call Easy Full Flex for the first part of the tine widening  then goes Wet Noodle. The other 52, is a tad stiffer overall than the other 52, but the same 'stroke' all the way.

 

I really don't know enough about snapbback to be able to say, in I don't practice. I just scribble 'normally' with them unless I wish to make a fancy decender.

One must !@#$%^& practice to achieve anything at all. :rolleyes: :blush:

 

I do strive to stay under max with all nibs. One 52 is like the Soennecken, a 7 X tine spread vs a light down stroke, the other 52 is more a 5 X starting from EF. It is a Wet Noodle, in I have enough Degussa Easy Full Flex nibbed pens and a Pelikan 100n in Easy Full Flex, to tell the difference by my flex rating scale.

 

I have to sweat to make the the Soennecken or the other 7 X Waterman go to XXF.....think to make it go EF....and scribble mostly in F....... :( still a tad heavy handed.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#11 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 22:03

Sigh, looking at one nib I thought, Easy Full Flex, my '30's Fednomatic compared it to my two 52's and it is Wet Noodle, falling in between the two 52's.

picture with permission of Penboard.de.

UPQpECd.jpg

 

Then I having nothing else to do, discovered two more, a 14 K overlay Pfortzheim pen, with the I believe Pfortzheim standing Buffalo nib, ...Can't see the clip nor the nib....took the picture for free when I bought the pen.

CKhIW6H.jpg

and a 'no name' Pewado war pen with a Degussa nib....both I'd thought only Easy Full Flex, 

 

It does help to have Wet Noodles to check other nibs against....and the urge to do so.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#12 Tom Heath

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 18:35

I see you opened quite a subject

 

Consider the possibility that one of the  Pink Nibs may be out or a #5  pen  vs a #7

 

There in itself is a significant difference

 

Yes a nib in its 80 year old life  may have been re=tipped

A lot of hand work went into its'manufacturing process so there are bound to be differences.

 

Some where around here I have a  Pink nib  I'll try to find it and offer other details

I  was having trouble locating a replacement Pink  ring.

I spent $ 40 on one to find it was more Red than  Pink  I may have to make one  . before offering it for sale.


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#13 Strelnikoff

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 20:07

I only have one Soennecken. It is smooth from XXF to BBB.

One Waterman 52, is what I call Easy Full Flex for the first part of the tine widening  then goes Wet Noodle. The other 52, is a tad stiffer overall than the other 52, but the same 'stroke' all the way.

 

I really don't know enough about snapbback to be able to say, in I don't practice. I just scribble 'normally' with them unless I wish to make a fancy decender.

One must !@#$%^& practice to achieve anything at all. :rolleyes: :blush:

 

I do strive to stay under max with all nibs. One 52 is like the Soennecken, a 7 X tine spread vs a light down stroke, the other 52 is more a 5 X starting from EF. It is a Wet Noodle, in I have enough Degussa Easy Full Flex nibbed pens and a Pelikan 100n in Easy Full Flex, to tell the difference by my flex rating scale.

 

I have to sweat to make the the Soennecken or the other 7 X Waterman go to XXF.....think to make it go EF....and scribble mostly in F....... :( still a tad heavy handed.

 

Honestly, I'd stay away from grinding a good nib all the way down to XXF. At least - until you get your hand in practice. 

Perhaps you'll find some other nib and narrow the tip - for practice... or just keep writing with M or F for a while :)

 

Any (very) flexible EF or XXF whatever the designation is - needlepoint - will be extremely sensitive... tricky to deal with ... 



#14 Strelnikoff

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 21:13

I see you opened quite a subject

 

Consider the possibility that one of the  Pink Nibs may be out or a #5  pen  vs a #7

 

There in itself is a significant difference

 

Yes a nib in its 80 year old life  may have been re=tipped

A lot of hand work went into its'manufacturing process so there are bound to be differences.

 

Some where around here I have a  Pink nib  I'll try to find it and offer other details

I  was having trouble locating a replacement Pink  ring.

I spent $ 40 on one to find it was more Red than  Pink  I may have to make one  . before offering it for sale.

 

It was/is in #7 pen. Then again, I can't say if it was not "replaced" i.e. taken out from #5 and fitted to #7 (is that even possible?). And for the pen itself, I can't say if the cap and barrel are "PINK" because the ring has faded to ... unrecognizable brownish color.

So far I've seen that only Mark Hoover offers (Le Belle Epoque Pens - hooverpen on eBay) #7 rings made of casein. No pink one though (you probably bought the last one :) ). 

 

And you are absolutely right - one would expect that nibs were extensively used in 80 years of their existence... so some repairs must have been done at some point.

Which made me thinking - I'd expect PINK nibs not to be used as much as Yellow, Red, Blue... and Purple. I wish that was true :)  I also hope that many people in 1940s bought PINK nibs, then used them a bit and then - discovered ballpoint pens. Then, they would leave fountain pens, forget about them and one day (today) their descendants decide to sell them (for cheap) ... to me :D

Btw. I'm enjoying some modern flexible nibs a lot. Aurora 88 Aniversario (with adjusted feed) nib is excellent. I have 3 pens, each nib has different flexibility. One is semi-flex at best, one is flexible and one is extra-to-super flexible.

Also - SCRIBO is coming soon with new line of pens, and one nib is 14K flexible - I've seen review (Stephen Brown on YouTube). I've even wrote to the manufacturer - they told me to wait :) they are ex-Omas employees, who couldn't buy-back name and shares from Chinese owners of Omas - and decided to do their own gig with machines (those they managed to buy back).

 

If any new nib is anywhere near vintage flex, especially PINK or few of ones I have - and if those nibs were paired with a good ebonite feed with wide channel, I would NEVER buy another vintage pen again. I'll still keep ones I have - especially my nearly perfect 58 :)

 

 

 

Well, let me correct my statement - I would never pay more than 150 USD for a vintage pen - which is not of a collectors value. 



#15 Strelnikoff

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 21:15

I see you opened quite a subject

 

Consider the possibility that one of the  Pink Nibs may be out or a #5  pen  vs a #7

 

There in itself is a significant difference

 

Yes a nib in its 80 year old life  may have been re=tipped

A lot of hand work went into its'manufacturing process so there are bound to be differences.

 

Some where around here I have a  Pink nib  I'll try to find it and offer other details

I  was having trouble locating a replacement Pink  ring.

I spent $ 40 on one to find it was more Red than  Pink  I may have to make one  . before offering it for sale.

 

Btw, personally - if the pen works fine, and nib is perfect - I could care less if the barrel and cap are not perfect, or they are oxidized ... :)



#16 Strelnikoff

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 21:16

Sigh, looking at one nib I thought, Easy Full Flex, my '30's Fednomatic compared it to my two 52's and it is Wet Noodle, falling in between the two 52's.

picture with permission of Penboard.de.

UPQpECd.jpg

 

Then I having nothing else to do, discovered two more, a 14 K overlay Pfortzheim pen, with the I believe Pfortzheim standing Buffalo nib, ...Can't see the clip nor the nib....took the picture for free when I bought the pen.

CKhIW6H.jpg

and a 'no name' Pewado war pen with a Degussa nib....both I'd thought only Easy Full Flex, 

 

It does help to have Wet Noodles to check other nibs against....and the urge to do so.

Nice!  Great pens man!



#17 fountainpen51

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 22:40

 

It was/is in #7 pen. Then again, I can't say if it was not "replaced" i.e. taken out from #5 and fitted to #7 (is that even possible?). And for the pen itself, I can't say if the cap and barrel are "PINK" because the ring has faded to ... unrecognizable brownish color.

So far I've seen that only Mark Hoover offers (Le Belle Epoque Pens - hooverpen on eBay) #7 rings made of casein. No pink one though (you probably bought the last one :) ). 

 

And you are absolutely right - one would expect that nibs were extensively used in 80 years of their existence... so some repairs must have been done at some point.

Which made me thinking - I'd expect PINK nibs not to be used as much as Yellow, Red, Blue... and Purple. I wish that was true :)  I also hope that many people in 1940s bought PINK nibs, then used them a bit and then - discovered ballpoint pens. Then, they would leave fountain pens, forget about them and one day (today) their descendants decide to sell them (for cheap) ... to me :D

Btw. I'm enjoying some modern flexible nibs a lot. Aurora 88 Aniversario (with adjusted feed) nib is excellent. I have 3 pens, each nib has different flexibility. One is semi-flex at best, one is flexible and one is extra-to-super flexible.

Also - SCRIBO is coming soon with new line of pens, and one nib is 14K flexible - I've seen review (Stephen Brown on YouTube). I've even wrote to the manufacturer - they told me to wait :) they are ex-Omas employees, who couldn't buy-back name and shares from Chinese owners of Omas - and decided to do their own gig with machines (those they managed to buy back).

 

If any new nib is anywhere near vintage flex, especially PINK or few of ones I have - and if those nibs were paired with a good ebonite feed with wide channel, I would NEVER buy another vintage pen again. I'll still keep ones I have - especially my nearly perfect 58 :)

 

 

 

Well, let me correct my statement - I would never pay more than 150 USD for a vintage pen - which is not of a collectors value. 

You can try a Richard Binder Full Flex or Linda's (Richard B. taught), I have not tried the FPnibs.com Flex, but they say they are very good too. They are relatively soft, but lack of snapback.



#18 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:27

Steinikoph,

The two XXF-BBB nibs were natural; on one 52 and the Soennecken. I wouldn't dream of grinding a nib so thin. Actually, I've never ground a nib (just smoothed some, and mostly removing tow-three generations in the dark of the drawer drag to 'good and smooth' the level under  'butter smooth', only a couple to 'butter smooth', I do have some slicker paper, so 'good and smooth', is smooth enough, where butter smooth can be a bit slick on slick paper.

 

Mostly I find vintage Euro F narrow enough for my regular use. My Degussa 'Easy Full Flex nibs which I have a few are  just old European EF.  That Pewado wet noodle is an F-BBB.

 

The other Waterman Wet Noodle is EF-BBB. or 6X.

As I said, I sweat because of my still slightly heavy hands, when I write XXF with those two nibs, EF requires thought of 'lightly'. :rolleyes: F requires no thought when I scribble.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#19 wildblueroan

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 19:37

Whew, I'll keep mine short: yes, PINK nibs vary with regard to flex and character. They are noted for their responsiveness, not so much for extreme flex (although they are to various degrees) and have always been considered artist's pens. Some BROWN nibs are comparable. Waterman's also made a bona fide Artist's pen, but I've never held one-nor have I even seen a BLACK.  Conklin nibs can be very fine, as already mentioned.  



#20 Strelnikoff

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 20:22

Whew, I'll keep mine short: yes, PINK nibs vary with regard to flex and character. They are noted for their responsiveness, not so much for extreme flex (although they are to various degrees) and have always been considered artist's pens. Some BROWN nibs are comparable. Waterman's also made a bona fide Artist's pen, but I've never held one-nor have I even seen a BLACK.  Conklin nibs can be very fine, as already mentioned.  

Thanks!

I've heard that about BROWN nibs, older ones are properly flexible (less so than PINK but more than RED), and new ones (mostly found on celluloid #5 or #94 pens) are anything but flexible. I was contemplating about buying one, and when I tried it - (it was in Waterman 94) I found it less interesting than my RED nib (in Waterman 5 celluloid). 
I've seen photos of BLACK nib :)  but fitted only to celluloid pens. Noone say WHITE though :)))

After using flexible nibs over years, and owning them - I've came to understand PINK nib - and any similar nib. That responsiveness you are mentioning is what I really like. Not so much potential for 2 mm line width. That snap-back gives exactly what is needed for nice writing. I have few super-flex nibs, they are easily flexed and open up wide - but I really don't reach for them lately. 





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