Did Onoto Use Waterman Lever Boxes In De La Rue Pens?

[FredRydr]

I am about to delve into my first De La Rue project. The lever pin has disappeared and the corroded pressure bar is a loss. Other than the lever and shape of the pressure bar, it all looks rather familiar. Is a Waterman lever box correct, or was this someone's repair of convenience for lack of Onoto parts?

 

De La Rue (left) next to a Waterman 55 (middle).

 

 

The image of two pens on the right side of page 163 of Stephen Hull's Onoto the Pen, De La Rue and Onoto Pens 1880-1960 (2016) seems to corroborate this. See: https://www.englishpenbooks.co.uk/home/onoto-the-pen/onoto-sample-page/

 

And while I'm asking, did they have nibs embossed "KIWI"?

Edited April 15, 2018 by FredRydr

[Cob]

Certainly those do resemble Waterman's lever boxes, but then what about these two?

 

A Spot pen from Mentmore and a Pitman's College pen that I suspect might also have been made by Mentmore:

 

 

On the other hand, how about this Onoto lever box - mid 'twenties at a guess and N.B. with its own patent number!

 

 

 

Rgds

 

Cob

[FredRydr]

Cob,

 

Have you removed them and found that the Onoto/De La Rue lever boxes are the same as Waterman's lever boxes?

 

It's possible that Onoto paid Waterman for parts or for a license, but I ask not for historical interest. It is a practical matter for a restoration (lever box removal, reinstallation, and parts sources).

 

Fred

[praxim]

None of my Onoto levers look like a Waterman lever. I have some from the early years, others from late years. All have slimmer, smaller tabs, no external surrounding metal box, opening < 45° for full compression rather than 60°-90°. Yours does look like a Waterman lever box.

 

I have not seen KIWI on any of 35 Onoto nibs. What are its other markings?

[Cob]

Cob,

 

Have you removed them and found that the Onoto/De La Rue lever boxes are the same as Waterman's lever boxes?

 

It's possible that Onoto paid Waterman for parts or for a license, but I ask not for historical interest. It is a practical matter for a restoration (lever box removal, reinstallation, and parts sources).

 

Fred

I have owned only one lever-box filler Onoto - the one pictured above. Since the unit carried a patent number clearly De La Rue did not need to take out a licence from Waterman's; it is as my second picture shows, quite different from the Waterman's type - and had better gold plate too! I never removed it. As you may know lever boxes are best left undisturbed.

 

On the other hand the later Onoto lever box models appear to have units closely resembling the Waterman's type - perhaps the patent had expired?

 

The units on the Spot & Pitman's pen are identical to Waterman's ones - perhaps Mentmore did take out a licence? Also I have seen a picture of a Pitman's pen with a lever box stamped with a patent number that belonged to Wyvern!

 

Incidentally, the lever on the Spot pen has the nicest action of any I have ever tried!

 

Edit: I should say that the lever box on the Onoto you show, fits in the same way as the Waterman's type with the dreaded folded tab inside at the front. I have just managed to remove one from a 52 barrel and fit it to a nice 52V I have. I was very careful annealing the tab before refitting. Sadly they often snap on removal.

 

Cob

Edited April 16, 2018 by Cob

[praxim]

In case this helps, a picture I had on hand of some onoto lever fillers. I think the oldest there is around the 1930 mark. The newest, on the right, is about 1960 (Australian).

 

eta: Posted this in a rush to go out earlier. In the Onoto book, about two or four pages earlier they show this type of lever. I have a recollection of some discussion of different lever designs around 1925, patenting something, specifically to get around the Waterman patents. I shall have a look later. The one below is the most common I have seen. A Waterman one is useable if the slot is right.

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by praxim

[Cob]

Somewhere I have an old BHR Onoto barrel with that sort of lever. Onoto used lever boxes on the de luxe models (later for example on the Lever-filler Magnas).

 

Cob

[praxim]

Yes, there is a Magna lever filler (1703) on ebay now where the more Waterman style lever box can be seen, as is also in The Book. I was expressing doubt that Onoto may have used Waterman lever boxes under licence, given they had their own long-standing history of manufacture of lever mechanisms, with relevant patents. If it is the same, maybe the Waterman patent had expired post-War?

 

I remain curious about that KIWI also.

[Cob]

Here's a snap of the complete pen with the lever box I featured earlier. Obviously from the 1920s.

 

 

Cob

Edited April 16, 2018 by Cob

[FredRydr]

Here is the whole pen. I don't have macro capability and I'm using an iPhone for photos.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by FredRydr

[Cob]

A very attractive lever box; is there something wrong with it?

C.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Cob

[FredRydr]

A very attractive lever box; is there something wrong with it?

C.

 

The pin or wire fell out, and the lever is loose from the box, so it'll have to come out.

 

The nib embossing reads:

 

KIWI

14 CT

MADE IN

ENGLAND

 

I had a larger version of the same pen until last summer, but the person I got it from pleaded for it back and I relented, and I later discovered I'd been had on its true value. :-(

Edited April 16, 2018 by FredRydr

[Cob]

 

The pin or wire fell out, and the lever is loose from the box, so it'll have to come out.

 

The nib embossing reads:

 

KIWI

14 CT

MADE IN

ENGLAND

 

I had a larger version of the same pen until last summer, but the person I got it from pleaded for it back and I relented, and I later discovered I'd been had on its true value. :-(

Ouch - you'll need jeweller's talents to fix that. I have looked at this before - that tiny stuff!!

 

Cob

[praxim]

Here is the whole pen. I don't have macro capability and I'm using an iPhone for photos.

 

Your pen looks to be on on p 135 of The Onoto Book, where many tab styles appear. Discussion of the Fisher lever patent, superseded in 1934 apparently, is on p 97.

[FredRydr]

Thank you, praxim. I sent you a PM.

Edited April 23, 2018 by FredRydr