How Long Does It Take To Destroy/alter The Function Of A Nib With Micromesh At 12000 Grit?

[EDR1633]

I think this is the simplest way to phrase this... Let's say I am starting with a Euro-EF with a perfectly round blob of tipping at the end, and I purposefully took the nib and drug it back and forth left and right over and over again non-stop in a fast motion as if I was trying to lay down a wet patch of ink, aiming to create a flat foot at the front, almost like a mini-stub. How long would it take for the foot to develop on 12000grit? Assuming light pressure, between weight of the pen and normal writing pressure (a bit subjective).

 

I choose EF since they would be most at risk of losing tipping.

 

Basically trying to get a gauge as to how abrasive 12000 grit truly is.

Edited March 23, 2018 by EDR1633

[lurcho]

You'd be surprised.

[kestrel]

The Honkosecond is the shortest interval of time ever measured. It is the time when the traffic light turns to green and the New York City cab driver behind you honks his/her horn.

 

The answer to your question is just a little longer than that. Especially if you apply pressure.

 

Be very careful. And deliberate. And patient.

[steve50]

The Honkosecond is the shortest interval of time ever measured. It is the time when the traffic light turns to green and the New York City cab driver behind you honks his/her horn.

 

The answer to your question is just a little longer than that. Especially if you apply pressure.

 

Be very careful. And deliberate. And patient.

+1

[EDR1633]

Just gave it a shot on a Jinhao M... 80 figure 8's, 1min of vigorous back and forth and 50 cycles of back and forth with rocking...

 

 

 

Must say that when I looked at my three Jinhao's to make the choice to be sacrificed, one #5 and two #6, not a one was out of alignment and all were smooth as butter mediums.

Edited March 23, 2018 by EDR1633

[Karmachanic]

I usually start with 2000 with pen perpedicular to the grit as per Mr Tan. Just a few strokes. Then move on to the 4000, and then 12000. Always checking, again and again.You may find this helpful:

http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/aboutpens/ludwig-tan.html

 

Of course, if it's only an exercise in ascertaining the destructive power of 12000, technique not so important.

Edited March 23, 2018 by kd3

[Bo Bo Olson]

As kd3 said, rough first and work up....in 12,000 is the 'smoothing' grade....not the grinding grade, even if does grind.

 

If you want fast action on your grinding use a knife sharpening stone......and you will find out how soft 'iridium' really is .... in a hurry.

 

I don't see any advantage of taking an EF and making a stub or CI out of is.......F, M or wider will give you a pattern you can see with out a magnifying glass.

[minddance]

Even though 12000 is a 'smoothing' grade abrasive, it takes material off very quickly, especially if it is a fresh new piece of lapping film. Discernible difference can be felt even after a light few strokes on it: it creates facets and changes the contact between nib and paper.

 

In an EF nib, the difference -for better or worse - is even greater. I would say, use with alot of care or not use it at all

[Precise]

I slightly flattened almost all of my nibs. This allows them to glide more smoothly.

 

1. I stroke downward on 2,000 grit abrasive paper. Typically 4 strokes of 3 inches. The last stroke I rock the nib up and down and laterally to round the edges of the flat I'm making.

 

2. I do some more of this with 8,000 grit

 

3. I do a bit more to polish with 12,000 grit.

 

The resulting slight flattening is a joy to write with. They glide on a tiny patch of ink.

 

Here are a couple of nibs that I flattened. First a Platinum F, which went from very scratchy to very smooth by flattening. The second was pretty good but became great when flattened.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Precise

[Bo Bo Olson]

I see no advantage to me, on making a nib just a bit flat footed. One has to hold the pen much more precise, once one has found the new sweet spot. Such a sweet sppt is much narrower than stub.

 

I can see going all the way and making it a stub, then one gets an interesting pattern to give flair to your writing....that a partial flat foot won't really do.

Stub is a super flatfoot nib then.

 

I have a slew of stub semi-flex Vintage German nibs, so I favor stub over partial flat foot, of which I have none, for a couple of reasons......one is reading for years about noobies doing that and the more expert than me...then and now, saying no to it.

The other is lack of need.

Smoothness can be improved by having slick paper and wet inks.....or even by chasing butter smooth with 12,000...buffing, not grinding.

[minddance]

Any slight and light brush with micromesh will make a nib write different. And it can be undetectable under magnification.

 

Be careful and know what you are doing

 

Buy pens from reputable shops with good return/exchabge policy so that you do not have to live with regrets.

[jekostas]

Any slight and light brush with micromesh will make a nib write different. And it can be undetectable under magnification.

 

 

This is an absurd exaggeration. It's not difficult to learn how to adjust or tune nibs properly. A couple of passes over micromesh (done properly!) is not going to ruin your pen.

[minddance]

 

This is an absurd exaggeration. It's not difficult to learn how to adjust or tune nibs properly. A couple of passes over micromesh (done properly!) is not going to ruin your pen.

It will not 'ruin' a pen. But the nib certainly will, already, write different with a slight brush with micromesh, even at 12000.

 

To address the topic question, a slight brush with micromesh will not 'destroy/alter the function of a nib'.

 

But the nib will write different.

 

Not all nibs are finished to 12000grit. And those that have a writing surface finished to 12000 grit might have areas left out.

 

The problem here: if the nib wasn't finished to 12000grit at factory, a slight brush with 12000grit will produce unusually smooth areas on the nib and the hand can feel the difference. When used with shading inks, the shading pattern changes.

 

If the nib was finished to finer than 12000grit, that 12000grit will produce areas of unusually 'rougher' patches.

 

Therefore a slight brush with 12000grit will produce a difference.

 

Also, a slight brush will produce micro flat foot/feet, depending on how you 'brush'/do a few 'passes'.

 

And do not forget the inner tines: they may or may not be finished to 12000grit at factory. If slight baby's bottom is present then the passes on micromesh might not get to the inner tines but if not present or weak baby's bottom, it will affect the inner tines.

 

No, the nib won't be destroyed and the 'function' of the nib will not be altered: it will still write, of course. But my hands can already feel the difference. I cannot say the same for yours.

[minddance]

For a nib to glide more smoothly, most of the time in my experience, it is the inner tines that require attention, not brainlessly smoothing the whole nib tipping with micromesh of any grade or figure 8s.

 

The outer ridges of a nib are usually taken care of by manufacturers. But many fail to address the inner tines.

 

Are you micromeshing the correct thing? I often ask myself.

 

It is not a black or white issue. It is a matter of taste, balance and art.

 

Ymmv.

Edited September 6, 2018 by minddance

[lurcho]

For a nib to glide more smoothly, most of the time in my experience, it is the inner tines that require attention, not brainlessly smoothing the whole nib tipping with micromesh of any grade or figure 8s.

 

The outer ridges of a nib are usually taken care of by manufacturers. But many fail to address the inner tines.

 

Are you micromeshing the correct thing? I often ask myself.

 

It is not a black or white issue. It is a matter of taste, balance and art.

 

Ymmv.

 

I often forget about the inner tines, and I think you're spot-on. How do you smooth them? I use the green lapping fim, but I have to admit I find it quite an awkward procedure.

[minddance]

 

I often forget about the inner tines, and I think you're spot-on. How do you smooth them? I use the green lapping fim, but I have to admit I find it quite an awkward procedure.

Hi Lurcho,

 

I wonder if you feel the same: nibs finished by the green film have a better ability to grip paper and thus produce darker appearances of inks and also subdue shadings better than the white 0.3microns (12000grit).

 

I have my own peculiar ways of smoothing nibs and inner tines, please don't mind me. And now I do not touch the nibs at all if it is not absolutely necessary.

 

Regarding inner tines, I am quite sure Richard Binder mentioned this in his notes, which I do not readily have with me right now. I am, afterall, no nibmeister.

 

I cannot irresponsibly advocate the use of micromesh on pens - though they are not mine. I cannot say things like "o, just do a few quick passes on the micromesh" or "go do some figure 8s".

 

Most of the time, many people are not micromeshing the correct part of the nib. And further, unnecessary problems are created.

Edited September 7, 2018 by minddance

[lurcho]

Hello, minddance:

 

I honestly never know where I am with lapping films, apart from the inner-tine work, and I rely almost entirely on 12K MM.

 

In fact, the whole process of messing about with nibs is entirely hit-and-miss as far as I'm concerned, and some nibs have literally taken me years of trial and error to get to where I want them.

 

You are absolutely right when you advise leaving well alone. Because once you start, you're committed.

 

Having said that, I always, without exception, need to increase flow on a new pen, so tine-gapping is unavoidable. I either use the thumbnail method or steel feeler gauges, both of which methods are fraught and tend to produce inverted-Grand Canyon syndrome, which is, as you know, a pain in the Harris and hell to reverse.

 

If only I had a reliable way of doing that one thing - increasing the gap - 90 per cent of my pen issues would be solved.

 

By the way, I do have Binder's workshop notes, thanks. But I think I use Wim Geeraet's approach to the inner-tine smoothing.

[jekostas]

I wonder if you feel the same: nibs finished by the green film have a better ability to grip paper and thus produce darker appearances of inks and also subdue shadings better than the white 0.3microns (12000grit).

 

12000 grit micromesh has particle sizing larger than 0.3 microns. It's close to, or just under, 1 micron.

[minddance]

Hello, minddance:

 

I honestly never know where I am with lapping films, apart from the inner-tine work, and I rely almost entirely on 12K MM.

 

In fact, the whole process of messing about with nibs is entirely hit-and-miss as far as I'm concerned, and some nibs have literally taken me years of trial and error to get to where I want them.

 

You are absolutely right when you advise leaving well alone. Because once you start, you're committed.

 

Having said that, I always, without exception, need to increase flow on a new pen, so tine-gapping is unavoidable. I either use the thumbnail method or steel feeler gauges, both of which methods are fraught and tend to produce inverted-Grand Canyon syndrome, which is, as you know, a pain in the Harris and hell to reverse.

 

If only I had a reliable way of doing that one thing - increasing the gap - 90 per cent of my pen issues would be solved.

 

By the way, I do have Binder's workshop notes, thanks. But I think I use Wim Geeraet's approach to the inner-tine smoothing.

Hi Lurcho,

I have also experience the inverted grand canyon syndrome with pulling tines with my thumbs: there is no control over how tines move/bend away, especially in very soft or very resilient nibs. I have not tried feeler gauge (yet). It is difficult to correct the inverted grand canyon syndrome. Therefore I return pens with tines too tightly squeezed together. It is not because I refuse to learn/try but because I have done it too many times and refuse to destroy nibs.

 

The common answers to increasing flow wrt nibs on forums and youtube videos seem to be educating viewers to do that or run brass shims or press the nib against a hard surface - all of which possess potential problems.

 

I tend to use a very thin piece of metal (brass) to open up tines but that has problems too. The point of entry can sometimes create dents/marks on nibs (not only soft gold ones) and this can disrupt ink flow, as this dent offers an alternative route for ink to travel. Also, this might create unven-ness in the tine slit, which also disrupts ink flow. Also, nib creep is possible. Inverted grand canyon syndrome is not as serious, though possible, with brass shims. Sometimes it is not a canyon v-shape but at least one tine would be affected: something has to give way to make space. And by giving way, itself bends or tilts in uncontrolled directions. I wonder what are your views on this?

 

This of course, if uncorrected, creates a feedback or even scratchy writing sensation. Then common forum/youtube education is to now take out that (in)famous micromesh to smooth things out to the writer's liking.

 

Even if the inverted grand canyon syndrome/misaligned tine is corrected (not the usual pushing the higher/lower tine down/up), now the widened gap between tines expose the inner tines which may or may not be sharp and unfinished.

 

Increased ink flow is supposed to lubricate and smoothen writing but now, with exposed sharp/unfinished/mis-angled inner tines, the writing experience could become worse than before when the tines are aligned in 3 dimensions/planes. Then many people take out that micromesh to micromesh anything but the problematic inner tines.

 

This is why I advise not using micromesh unless the person knows and sees exactly what the problem is.

 

For a start if one must absolutely micromesh/do any nib work, good magnification is a must. If a 20x loupe does not allow us to see what 12k micromesh has done, then maybe a true 200x will(?)

 

Thank you for mentioning Wim Geeraet, is there a link or printed material so that we can all learn please?

[lurcho]

Hello minddance

 

Yes, that single tine going askew is, if anything, even worse than IGC.

 

However, since writing my post on this thread I have managed to resurrect an old steel JoWo nib by furious meshing and inner-tine work. I thought I'd wrecked this particular specimen a couple of years back by twisting the tines out, and I had. But I managed to somehow bend them back a bit, which still left an awful scratchiness. But half an hour of smoothing has now made this nib into one of the best I've ever had. I couldn't believe it.

 

Now, as you can tell, this is all luck and no judgment. Nonetheless, it does show what a bit of bloodymindedness will do. And if you have nothing to lose...

 

The Wim Geeraets link is below. I think it was originally on Pentrace, but this link is for this forum.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/html/ngFPNv102.html