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Inks For Sac Pens


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#1 tincansailor

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 14:37

Recommendations for inks that are OK to use for vintage lever pens.  Have heard stories about sac melting etc. from certain inks.  Is this really a problem or more hearsay.  I have a bottle of 54th Mass. that I really like and want to use in my Esterbrook.



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#2 Inkling13

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 17:31

It's really unverified, alternative "truth" that has been smeared around the internet and FPN that Noodler's or any other ink melted pen parts. No experiments have yielded any reproducible results. However, some inks can stain, just as a word of caution. Esterbrooks are near immortal, short of running out of parts, nothing can really keep them down for long. 



#3 Maccabeus

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 17:43

Had an Esterbrook J that I used 54th Mass in for about a year with no ill effects. FWIW, I switched from 54th Mass to ESSRI (iron gall) in that same pen without any troubles. 


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#4 fuddmain

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 18:02

I'll run just about any ink through my Esterbrooks: Noodler's Baystate Blue, Sailor Kiwa-Guro & Sei-Boku (pigmented), Iron Gall, whatever.  Never had a lick of trouble.  Also, it's easy to replace the sac in an Esterbrook if needed.

 

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#5 displacermoose

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 03:17

I agree with the other posters. I put whatever I feel like in my Esterbrook. Should something go awry (unlikely) they are easy and cheap to fix.

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#6 pajaro

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 03:29

The pen restorers, like Ron Zorn of Main Street Pens, have stated that red inks can cause premature failure in latex sacs.  This is supposed to include purple inks.  I figure that I will just use red and purple in C/C pens, and use regular stuff in sac pens.  Apparently PVC sacs are immune to this damage.  So, Parker 51 or other pens having a PVC sac are safe.  I have resacced a couple of Esterbrooks with PVC sacs. 

 

You can, of course, remain defiant and use any ink you please in latex sac pens.  If the sac fails in six months or twenty years, who cares if you get your way?  If you are willing to resac, go ahead and use whatever ink.  The nib is also a relatively cheap unit, in case you melt the feed.  Throw it all away and restore the pen. 

 

I have a small collection of Esterbrook, but they are mainly static display, and a selection of less common nibs.  I don't care what ink goes into them, but usually they are empty.


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#7 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:12

From what I read, Ron Zorn also thinks supersaturated inks, like Noodlers causes rapid sac failures....with in weeks, or a month or so.

 

I don't know how good Chinese sacs are, but once rubber sacs before supersaturated inks were good fro 30-40 years...I don't know if the resurrected White company (once the worlds biggest rubber sac maker in by gone days)  is still there or not...or how good the new sacs from them are.

 

So why not be safe and use old fashioned regular inks with a proven history of good for rubber, instead of re-sacking every other month....or worrying about having to.

 

Parker Pennman inks the first supersaturated inks had a reputation of eating sacs and feeds, so supersaturated problems with rubber is not new.


Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#8 Wolverine1

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 14:25

OldSalt- you might want to consider certain inks because they are relatively trouble free. Say, inks made by Waterman, by Aurora, Quink in by Parker, are three that I have used with  my lever pen with no problems



#9 Ron Z

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 21:45

It's really unverified, alternative "truth" that has been smeared around the internet and FPN that Noodler's or any other ink melted pen parts. No experiments have yielded any reproducible results. However, some inks can stain, just as a word of caution. Esterbrooks are near immortal, short of running out of parts, nothing can really keep them down for long. 

 

I'm sorry, I disagree.  I see many sacs that have been damaged by dye saturated inks like Noodlers.  There is enough of a correlation for me to conclude that the ink is the source.  Some have done tests and have verified that there is a link, and that diluting the ink by 20% or more mitigates the problem.  The last time I talked to the person doing the work, he wasn't quite ready to publish his results. 

 

I've also seen a correlation between premature latex sac failure and red ink, or inks that contain red like purple and brown. 

 

This hasn't always been the case.  But it started to appear with the advent of the heavily saturated inks, and then expanded with some of the latex sacs in the last 6-7 years.   I still have, and have seen, relatively few or no problems with vintage inks, and with Pelikan, Waterman, Montblanc and Aurora.


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#10 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 22:17

:thumbup:


Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#11 Freddy

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 22:46

Inkling13, on 05 Mar 2018 - 12:31, said:snapback.png

It's really unverified, alternative "truth" that has been smeared around the internet and FPN that Noodler's or any other ink melted pen parts. No experiments have yielded any reproducible results. However, some inks can stain, just as a word of caution. Esterbrooks are near immortal, short of running out of parts, nothing can really keep them down for long. 

 

I'm sorry, I disagree.  I see many sacs that have been damaged by dye saturated inks like Noodlers.  There is enough of a correlation for me to conclude that the ink is the source.  Some have done tests and have verified that there is a link, and that diluting the ink by 20% or more mitigates the problem.  The last time I talked to the person doing the work, he wasn't quite ready to publish his results. 

 

I've also seen a correlation between premature latex sac failure and red ink, or inks that contain red like purple and brown. 

 

This hasn't always been the case.  But it started to appear with the advent of the heavily saturated inks, and then expanded with some of the latex sacs in the last 6-7 years.   I still have, and have seen, relatively few or no problems with vintage inks, and with Pelikan, Waterman, Montblanc and Aurora.

 

 Of the same opinion as Ron.....Relevant evidence....works....

 

This is not Conway {BS} "Alternative Facts" moment....No siree bob.....

 

  Fred

 

Have you a rebuttal?



#12 tincansailor

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:08

 

I'm sorry, I disagree.  I see many sacs that have been damaged by dye saturated inks like Noodlers.  There is enough of a correlation for me to conclude that the ink is the source.  Some have done tests and have verified that there is a link, and that diluting the ink by 20% or more mitigates the problem.  The last time I talked to the person doing the work, he wasn't quite ready to publish his results. 

 

I've also seen a correlation between premature latex sac failure and red ink, or inks that contain red like purple and brown. 

 

This hasn't always been the case.  But it started to appear with the advent of the heavily saturated inks, and then expanded with some of the latex sacs in the last 6-7 years.   I still have, and have seen, relatively few or no problems with vintage inks, and with Pelikan, Waterman, Montblanc and Aurora.

 

Thanks for the info Ron

 

I think I will wait until the results are published, meanwhile I will stick Waterman inks.



#13 pajaro

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 04:37

 

I'm sorry, I disagree.  I see many sacs that have been damaged by dye saturated inks like Noodlers.  There is enough of a correlation for me to conclude that the ink is the source.  Some have done tests and have verified that there is a link, and that diluting the ink by 20% or more mitigates the problem.  The last time I talked to the person doing the work, he wasn't quite ready to publish his results. 

 

I've also seen a correlation between premature latex sac failure and red ink, or inks that contain red like purple and brown. 

 

This hasn't always been the case.  But it started to appear with the advent of the heavily saturated inks, and then expanded with some of the latex sacs in the last 6-7 years.   I still have, and have seen, relatively few or no problems with vintage inks, and with Pelikan, Waterman, Montblanc and Aurora.

 

I think that's very good information about diluting the saturated inks by 20%, and that that mitigates the problem.


"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

They took the blue from the skies and the pretty girls' eyes and a touch of Old Glory too . . .


#14 ErrantSmudge

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:51

This is one more reason to dislike sac pens.


Edited by ErrantSmudge, 07 March 2018 - 05:51.


#15 FLZapped

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 18:42

Sac pens are harder to clean out, so you certainly want to use an ink that cooperates in this regard. Having an ultra-sonic cleaner would help as long as it doesn't have anything that could be damaged by the cleaner - like the Parker 61 with its arrow inlay.



#16 larsenproject

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:25

I recently (like today) purchased a vintage Waterman's with a new sac installed.  I like using the Platinum Carbon ink in my pens because I can watercolor on top.  Should there be any issue with that?  Don't plan on switching out inks much.  This is going to be a liner pen.



#17 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 09:41

This is one more reason to dislike sac pens.

How do I put this politely..

.Noodler now makes cartridges even though he swore he wasn't going to go that route. ....which are lower on my list to buy than sac pens that I grew up with.

But then again I do have over 50 inks.....and have only two expensive imported Noodler inks....(here in Germany). Perhaps one or two of my DA inks are supersaturated....don't know, do know those two are more saturated than some of his inks.

 

Sac pens are the fastest to reload.

There are folks who don't have a fill the pen before going to bed or while drinking the morning coffee, who being lazy, don't know how much ink is in their pens..............actually there should be two days worth, in in modern times one don't write as much as back in the day......when sac pens held more than cartridges.....outside of perhaps the Sheaffer 1.60ml cartridge.

 

Sac pens have on the whole better balance than later cartridge pens, in they had to have good balance to sell.....even some of the better Wearevers had good balance.

 

Disadvantage of a sac pen only comes when one is changing inks.

So one dislikes well balanced, fast loading sac pens, in one is too suborn, or refuses to use other than vivid boring supersaturated inks?

 

Shading inks are not supersaturated.....if your paper is good enough....90g &+, Laser.....do try some of those 'wishy-washy/pastel' two toned shading inks.......and there a sac pen is a good pen.

Herbin, Pelikan 4001, MB, Kaweco, could be bought for a sac pen.

 

:gaah:Pretty Esterbrooks.....ain't no good :yikes: ....OP can't use his selection of supersaturated only inks. :wallbash: 


Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#18 minddance

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 13:21

Sac pens are very difficult to clean out. The same goes for Pilot 823. If one uses a fixed ink or only black and regularly, then it's not a problem.

For cleaning out sac pens more easily without staining, my experience has been positive with Herbin inks (not the glittery ones).

#19 fuddmain

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 13:54

Sac pens are difficult to clean out?  Esterbrooks, at least, are not.  Unscrew nib. Rinse out.  Done.

 

I recently (like today) purchased a vintage Waterman's with a new sac installed.  I like using the Platinum Carbon ink in my pens because I can watercolor on top.  Should there be any issue with that?  Don't plan on switching out inks much.  This is going to be a liner pen.

 

I've been using Sailor Kiwa-Guro and Sei-Boku in my Esterbrooks for years with no problems.  Even had one loaded with Kiwa-Guro that I lost.  Turned up behind a bookshelf over a year later.  Didn't take much more than a typical flush to have it cleaned out and ready for more pigmented and supersaturated inks.  YMMV.

 

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Typo.


Edited by fuddmain, 08 March 2018 - 13:55.

~Brian

 

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#20 ErrantSmudge

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 15:41

How do I put this politely..

 

 

Indeed.

 

 

Sac pens are the fastest to reload.

 

I'm not sure this is true, and the advantage, if there is one, is a few seconds at best.  This isn't a very worthwhile "advantage".

 

 

Sac pens have on the whole better balance than later cartridge pens, in they had to have good balance to sell.....even some of the better Wearevers had good balance.

 
I've never noticed a difference in balance between my sac fillers and CC pens.  This sounds like a sweeping generalization.
 
 

Disadvantage of a sac pen only comes when one is changing inks.

So one dislikes well balanced, fast loading sac pens, in one is too suborn, or refuses to use other than vivid boring supersaturated inks?

 

 

That's a huge problem for anyone who considers ink selection a very valuable part of owning a fountain pen (like me).  I usually change colors on every fill, and that's a huge issue with sac pens that are next to impossible to clean.  (I hadn't thought about pulling the nibs on my Esterbrooks, but I also don't like the idea of putting that much wear and tear on them).

 

 

Herbin, Pelikan 4001, MB, Kaweco, could be bought for a sac pen.

 

I do have some boring inks to put in those pens.  But because of it, they don't see as much use as my pens which are both easy to clean and tolerant of a wide range of inks.  And even with those boring inks, it's still difficult to change colors.  So they usually end up with boring washable Blue and Black.

 

I'm not getting rid of the sac fillers in my collection.  But I have decided to avoid sac filling pens going forward in pen collecting.

 

 

:gaah:Pretty Esterbrooks.....ain't no good  :yikes: ....OP can't use his selection of supersaturated only inks.  :wallbash:

 

I'm sorry you don't like saturated inks.  But, the world has moved on.

 

 

For the OP, to at least stay mildly on topic: All three Aurora inks (Black, Blue-Black and Black) are excellent choices for sac pens.   Aurora Blue is a nice blue ink (one of my favorites) that avoids being boring.


Edited by ErrantSmudge, 08 March 2018 - 15:57.







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