Jump to content

The Fountain Pen Network uses (functional) cookies. Read the FPN Privacy Policy for more info.  To remove this message, please click here to accept the use of cookies






Photo

Vintage Flex For Newbie


21 replies to this topic

#1 Larina_1248

Larina_1248

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 02 March 2018 - 17:53

Hi!

 

I am thinking about buying a vintage flex pen for myself, but I'm wondering if I should get a superflex of a wet noodle. I have moderate experience with dip pen nibs, and I have a few other semi-flex pens, but nothing extreme. I've heard that you need a lot of experience to use wet noodles well, but on the other hand, I want to see what a really good, extreme-flexing pen feels like. I don't get a chance to buy new pens very often, so getting a less flexy pen with the idea of getting used to it before I move on to wet noodles is...not very thrilling. On the other hand, I'd rather take the long way if it really makes a difference. 

 

How much experience do you really need to use a wet noodle? I've read about the problem of springing the tines, but are there other issues I need to be aware of? Would it be a mistake for me to buy a wet noodle in spite of my relative lack of experience? 

 

Thank you so much!



Sponsored Content

#2 Sinistral1

Sinistral1

    Ink Minion

  • FPN Donor - Iridium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,919 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota USA
  • Flag:

Posted 02 March 2018 - 18:25

I have taken the long road with flexible nibs.  My 1980s Waterman Gentleman has a very soft "flexible" nib that I used for years without knowing that I could give it a little pressure and get a wider line, so I never did that.  When I do that now, while it flexes slightly (the tines open up a little bit), the line variation is minimal and does not effect my writing.

 

Then, because I saw the beautiful copperplate and Spenserian writing examples here on FPN and elsewhere, I wanted a pen that could do that, too.  I have two wet noodles - a Waterman 14 and a Waterman 15, both vintage pens from the early 20th century and costing about $100 - $150.  They are so flexible that with only a small amount of pressure the tines separate radically.  Consequently, while I am writing with them, I have to write like I do when I use a dip pen with a nib that does not flex when I write calligraphy like uncial.

 

In other words, a super wet noodle means that you will be "drawing" your letters slowly rather than quickly writing in script. ETA: Maybe some day I can write quickly with my wet noodles, but after many attempts I'm still not there.

 

Have you tried a Noodler's Ahab flex pen yet?  They are inexpensive and give a moderate amount of flex that lets you play with the concept. 


Edited by Sinistral1, 02 March 2018 - 18:43.

Breathe.  Take one step at a time.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  You're not getting older, you are only moving through time.  Be calm and positive.


#3 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 02 March 2018 - 19:10

IMG_0776.JPG

Edison Beaumont / Leonardt-G & Pelikan Violet 4001



#4 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 02 March 2018 - 19:32

IMG_0776.JPG

IMG_0777.JPG

Edison Beaumont / Leonardt-G & Pelikan Violet 4001

 



#5 Larina_1248

Larina_1248

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 02 March 2018 - 19:34

Sinistral1: Thanks for the helpful comment. I am fairly used to drawing the letters, from calligraphy work I do with both dip and broad pens, so that doesn't bother me, so long as I can also write normally with it when not flexed. And I haven't tried the Ahab, but I have the Noodler's Nib Creaper, and also the Pilot Falcon, so I have played around with flex nibs.
 
 
Nail-Bender: I've tried Zebra G nibs too. Very nice, but I want to try something a little different. ;)


#6 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 02 March 2018 - 20:00

IMG_0779.JPG



#7 Bo Bo Olson

Bo Bo Olson

    Ancient Artifact

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,299 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 02 March 2018 - 20:06

If you do a Pilot mod to the Ahab (look up 'Ahab Mod' ...by cutting out little half moons on the nib, it will take an Ahab from a hard semi-flex pressure....superflex...in it does flex enough to qualify, to a much easier to use first stage super flex, what I call an Easy Full Flex. I have a number of pens with that flex. ***

 

I have three wet noodles...two are 52's....one starts out as an Easy Full Flex that gets much easier then as a wet noodle half way through. The other is ok, but both don't match my Soennecken superflex.

A Soennecken dip pen nib is like many,  is more expressive than any Zebra G nib (from my reading the Zebra Z, is on the lower side of flexible dip pen nibs) .....and  is better than my best fountain pen wet noodle. It's sort of medium...I have a few more of them.

A Hunt 99-100-101 are the real wet noodles (flex when there is an earthquake in California) .... the Gillette 303/404 have great reputations also for pure flex.

 

Not all '52's are wet noodles.............in fact a fine poster posted what Waterman said in the 30's, they were after tine bend, not tine spread, looking at a 3 X a light line tine spread..............so many of us are spreading the tines more than designed.

So looking for '20's or before pens might get you more......""""I have two wet noodles - a Waterman 14 and a Waterman 15, both vintage pens from the early 20th century and costing about $100 - $150."""

 

There is much variation in superflex......the more you have the more variation you will meet.

 

I did run into a '20's MB Safety Pen....now that was a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle..... :D

 

The thing about '30's and before nibs, is they can be lumpy, chunks can fall out, in tipping wasn't perfected until in or about WW2. So I'd not try to smooth them. I don't have a link file, but perhaps some one can link you to that post on this com, that links to that lumpy nib study.

 

*** I have a subjunctive flex system of 1/2s. I've stated it many times. You can find it in many posts,

If you can't find it, I'll do it again.

With superflex it's more helpful to those just entering, and not to those with 5 or six superflex pens...especially the wet noodles.


Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#8 dezorz

dezorz

    Mint

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 64 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 05 March 2018 - 18:27

can you write normally with brause blue pumpkin? if so, you will have no problem to use wet noodle as edc pen

#9 Bo Bo Olson

Bo Bo Olson

    Ancient Artifact

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,299 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 05 March 2018 - 21:15

Don't know that Brouse nib...."""brause blue pumpkin?""" Got a number for it?

Have a couple in the middle range of flex. Have I believe an ornamental Brouse nib too. I have to admit what ever Brouse nibs never made me notice exactly which they were...in those were not major flex nibs.......I understand they do have them....doubt if mine are those.


Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#10 Uncial

Uncial

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 05 March 2018 - 23:28

If you arm write as opposed to finger write and can keep your elbow up while still writing with an incredibly light touch then you should get enjoyment out of it. I can only keep it up for so long before it becomes wearing and i tend to write with a very light hand. My advise would be to try writing that way with a normal pen. If you find it too difficult then a wet noodle nib may deeply frustrate you. I have one in a Waterman 52 and enjoy it, but only for short periods when I'm in the mood. It is desperately difficult to control and is well named as it is exactly as described. If I finger write with it I just get what looks like an extremely broad very poorly tuned nib; not a good look on a page. It takes serious dedication and practice to get good results and sadly I don't have the time to invest. If you're looking to buy one in today's market you may need between 500 up to 1000 dollars to get something in decent order. You can still get lucky of course, but also be aware that many, many pens - especially on the Bay - are advertised as wet noodles but are very often semi flex at best, despite what pictures purport to show you.

Edited by Uncial, 05 March 2018 - 23:30.


#11 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 05 March 2018 - 23:43

Don't know that Brouse nib...."""brause blue pumpkin?""" Got a number for it?

yhst-141105795965626_2509_1344110647.jpg



#12 Honeybadgers

Honeybadgers

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,551 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 06 March 2018 - 00:46

attachicon.gif IMG_0776.JPG

attachicon.gif IMG_0777.JPG

Edison Beaumont / Leonardt-G & Pelikan Violet 4001

 

 

We've been here before. My FPnibs custom 14k will happily keep up with that dip nib.

 

It won't go BBBB, but BBB and below, it's dead nuts even.

 

I've had several wet noodles before I got my custom made one which is like writing with a paintbrush. it didn't write well at first, and just took practice.

Get what sounds fun and learn to appreciate it. this is good advice for any pen, learn to appreciate how it writes rather than make it fit into a box.



#13 Bo Bo Olson

Bo Bo Olson

    Ancient Artifact

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,299 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 06 March 2018 - 19:48

No...don't have that one...Have a Rustica, two 50, Ceto Fine. Ornament 500 & 320 M.

 

Outside a box of Esterbrooks, and some Hunts and Soenneckens and a few odd ones. I don't have many Dip Pen nibs......@ 30 outside the Esterbrook box.


Edited by Bo Bo Olson, 06 March 2018 - 20:07.

Everyone says poor Mozart dead at only 36. None say poor Mendelson, dead at only 38. His family only allowed him to start at 20, but before, musicians use to come to the Mendelson garden to steal the music of Mendelson and his sister. A good artist also, can still buy prints of his famous Scottish drawings in Scotland.

 

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

Pens/inks/paper on hold for a year....new addiction pocket watch chains. :happyberet:


#14 Larina_1248

Larina_1248

    NOS (New Old Stock)

  • Member - Silver

  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 07 March 2018 - 23:09

Interesting comments from everyone, thank you! I haven't used the Brouse nib mentioned, and I'm still bad at arm-writing, but maybe a new flex pen will encourage me to practice that? XD
 
I guess what I'm really asking is would any of you insist that I NOT get a wet noodle until I am more practised with flex pens? Or is it fine as long as I realise that there will be limitations in what I can do with the pen that have more to do with me than with the pen itself? 


#15 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 07 March 2018 - 23:25

 

I'm still bad at arm-writing...
 
I guess what I'm really asking is would any of you insist that I NOT get a wet noodle...

 

 

Check out this thread..

http://www.fountainp...ed-into-wrecks/

 

Arm writing?

Yea...That's another lie along with the magic golden pen BS.

Everyone I have seen that has fantastic penmanship finger writes & moves their hand every 3-5 letters.

Arm flourishing is an advanced skill that has me pretty much baffled but everyone should try it.

 

BTW...Don't tell others that the wizard uses a cheap pen and finger writes. :P  


Edited by Nail-Bender, 07 March 2018 - 23:39.


#16 Uncial

Uncial

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 07 March 2018 - 23:41

That would be a lie perpetrated by calligraphers, penmanship specialists and professionals and signwriters all the way down to hobbyists and as seen on video demonstrations and covered in many books that go as far back as practice manuals from the late 1800's which strongly insist upon it. That would make it a fairly incredible lie.

To flex the pen it's easy to use your fingers, which is perhaps what you're seeing. Some 'flex pens like the Ahab, Creeper etc can take quite a bit of force to make flex and you need to apply the force largely through your fingers. You want the practice of arm writing especially for fine line work where you let the weight of the nib lay the ink and even lift your arm further to get a hairline. Its a method that requires concentration and serious skill to do with a wet noodle nib but even more impossibly difficult to achieve with finger writing.

Edited by Uncial, 07 March 2018 - 23:42.


#17 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 07 March 2018 - 23:57

That would be a lie perpetrated by calligraphers, penmanship specialists and professionals and signwriters all the way down to hobbyists and as seen on video demonstrations and covered in many books that go as far back as practice manuals from the late 1800's which strongly insist upon it. That would make it a fairly incredible lie.

Nope...

 

https://www.iampeth....nmanship-part-2

Madarasz lifted after the capital D. He shifted the paper. Then he penned the e,s, lifted, slid the paper. He penned the 't' to the top of its 'i' section, lifted, perhaps shifted, then started at the top of the 't' and came down (no shade yet) and penned to the drop down of the small 'r'. He lifted here, shifted the paper, and did the 'i' portion of the r and through the 'o' with its shade. He lifted, shifted and finished with the y. The top of the 't' (and also d, p) were ususally done after the entire page was written. The top of these letters was '7ed'as shown.

So how do you write with your whole arm if you are shifting the paper?

 

And another thing...

Keep your nib at TWELVE o'clock and not turned to the right (on the slope line) like everyone seems to think.

That is for oblique pens and when doing some letter forms that pop up in 47 & 52 degree slant angles.

(even then you split the difference and roll the nib to only 60 degrees or so)


Edited by Nail-Bender, 08 March 2018 - 00:06.


#18 sidthecat

sidthecat

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,451 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Flag:

Posted 08 March 2018 - 03:01

If you’re forcing a nib to flex it’s not a wet noodle. The flexiest nibs I have will make big, sweeping lines with the barest of pressure. The brush metaphor has some truth behind it.

#19 Uncial

Uncial

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 08 March 2018 - 09:29

Nope...

 

https://www.iampeth....nmanship-part-2

 

 

 

Type in 'arm movement' in the search box of the same site and have a read.



#20 Nail-Bender

Nail-Bender

    "Allo, daffy English kniggets"

  • FPN Supporter - Rhodium

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 636 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa.
  • Flag:

Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:12

Type in 'arm movement' in the search box of the same site and have a read.

 

I guess I'm officially disagreeing with the greatest penmen who have ever lived. :D

 

I refuse to use a wet noodle pen.

I will not orient my nib on the slope line.

I think arm writing is unnecessarily complicated.

I do not hold my pen in any fixed position. I rotate the nib & angle the pen in all directions depending on my whim.

And...I don't spend a lot of time doing practice exercises.

 

I guess my writing should look like chicken scratch.  :huh:





Reply to this topic



  




Sponsored Content




|