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Demand For Flex Nibs: Do People Want Them?


221 replies to this topic

#1 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:21

As some of you may have already noted from my previous posts, I got a Karas Kustoms Ink fountain pen recently with a Bock Titan (titanium) nib with a fine point.  I've been very happy with it, and I've been trying to point it out as an option whenever the topic of flex nibs comes up.  However…  I feel like something strange is going on, that I don't really understand.  So let me elucidate my thoughts, and see if others feel the same!

 

I've been on FPN for several years now, and it seems like during much of that time there was a lot of pent-up demand for modern flex nibs.  At some times it seemed almost like a mania.  At the same time there were explanations for why no contemporary pen company would ever issue flex nibs again.  There was "no demand" beyond a small handful of enthusiasts (i.e. seemingly everyone on FPN!), and ham-fisted ballpoint-trained writers would ruin them and cause a warranty nightmare that no company would ever risk.

 

Now, after all these years of wanting and wanting, and the object of our desires being out of reach, here's the Bock Titan!  It's a modern, off-the-shelf, new-with-warranty nib that writes like a vintage flex pen.  OK, it doesn't write like the very finest or the very most flexible of vintage flex pens, but it's in the right ballpark, it's very decent.  And it's been greeted with a big yawn here on FPN.  What happened?  I thought we'd all be celebrating now.  This is what we asked for, year after year.

 

I've been looking through the topics, and it just doesn't seem like there's the interest in flex nibs that there used to be.  I wonder if Bock just missed the boat?  They gave us what we wanted after most of us stopped wanting it.  But why?  What happened to cause this change in attitudes?

 

So here's where I get into speculation.

 

Culprit #1:  Noodler's.  There was enormous excitement for the Noodler's flex pens when they first appeared.  I think a lot of those FPNers who were interested in trying flex bought them, quickly discovered that they are (bleep), and then decided that flex nibs are (bleep) that they don't want.  Been there, done that, didn't like it.  Yes, I've heard all the excuses for Noodler's pens.  They're not intended to work right out-of-the-box; they're for tinkerers!  They flex if you mash down on them hard enough!  What do you expect for $16 anyhow?  True, true, and true, and yet somehow it all sounds to me like excuses for a pen that is basically (bleep).

 

Culprit #2:  YouTube.  We've got people on YouTube "demonstrating" flex pens by using them like calligraphy nibs, making the tines do splits that will pretty soon ruin the nib.  I've never seen anyone on YouTube *ever* review a flex-nib fountain pen properly and show the right way to use them.  So, a lot of people have gotten entirely the wrong idea about what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to work.  A lot of them come away with the false idea that using a flex pen is some special skill that they would have to put in a lot of time and work to develop.

 

Culprit #3:  FPN Experts.  That's you and me.  (But specifically, YOU.  Yeah, you over there, you know who I'm talking to.)  When the topic of flex comes up, there are certain people who chime in with pages and pages of complex and often contradictory opinions, and its very intimidating, and I think it scares away anybody who just has a casual interest in trying a flex nib.  Also, we've repeated the myth so often of "There are no good modern flex nibs," that this has become dogma, and it's hard to recognize that maybe the situation has, in fact, changed.

 

So…  Am I right?  Am I off base?



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#2 Honeybadgers

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:42

The bock Ti nib is about as flexible as a semiflex nib and it's way, WAY mushier. 

 

Honestly, people are really weird about flex nibs. There are modern wet noodle flex nibs out there, but they're custom made. everything else is just varying degrees of semiflex.

 

There is no true right way to use a fountain pen. If I want to side-drag my tines, I can do that as much as I want. will the nib last longer? no. But writing is such an intensely personal experience that I find it genuinely offensive to argue that there is a true "correct" way to use them. 

 

There is still a high demand for flex nibs. The biggest problem is that the easier design requires metallurgy we no longer have (or is no longer feasible to produce custom 14k alloys when off the shelf sheet stock is available) and they often require a lot more work to tune, which increases costs.

 

The thing that I recently learned, though, is that japan made the Shiro nib in the late 1930's. It's a real semiflex. not a hard, mushy thing like a noodlers #6 flex nib, a REAL semiflex, soft, XF-BB with snapback. It wipes the floor with the bock Ti nib, and I don't know why THAT nib isn't made anymore.



#3 JonSzanto

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:09

Some points I'll just throw out, as I've tracked this issue for a few years as well - online, in correspondence, and at pen shows.

 

  • FPN is not the only audience driving the modern pen market. The fountain pen world is changing right now with a big influx of very young users and believe this is having an impact. You might see more dialogue (though I'm far from certain) if your reading carried you to other venues (such as the fp sub-reddit).
  • "Mania" was a good term to use, as it encapsulates a lot of the emotional side of the issue - people wanted flex nibs. These days I honestly believe the mania has shifted to inks. Just in the last three years there has been an explosion of inks and ink manufacturers. IMO there are a lot of users who were looking for character and individuality in their writing that thought they would find it in flex and now find it in sheen, sparkle and shading. The inks themselve, often simply coming out of a broader nib, make their writing look like no one else's.
  • Re: Noodler's and other cheap flex (cough, cough) nibs... I have a suspicion, based on a lot of reading, that people *did* chase flex, be it those cheap entry-level pens that only flex with muscle, to the people who were modding in various ways, to people who started seeking modest-cost vintage flex... they did chase it, and they found out it is hard to have nice writing with a flexible nib! I think as more people realised that the rewards of a handsome script came at the price of practice and due diligence, the bloom was off the rose. The flexpens went in the drawer, to be replaced by all manner of fads: tactical pens, the tsunami of inexpensive Chinese pens, new materials in construction, etc.

I won't be surprised if this ebbs and flows, but unless someone came up with a remarkable design and material that yielded a pen of noticeable flexation with little effort and modest cost, we are still in a situation where the market for *new* flexible nibs is going to remain small, and therefore will not be an area that will see much investment in research and development. I would love to be proved wrong. Just some musings on a late Sunday night...


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#4 max dog

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:01

How does one get themselves a Bock Titan nib?  Are they available in a number of brands or only with Karas Kustoms?  

 

I think you covered it pretty well with the 3 culprits. 

 

There are indeed a few FPN Experts (they tout themselves as experts anyway) here with  very puristic opinions of what "flex" should be that has soured the well for people new to fountain pens from exploring flex possibilities for themselves in modern pens to some extent.  They instill a false impression with newbies that if something can't flex like vintage, it's not worth appreciating and enjoying.

 

I think also as this niche fountain pen market grows and more people are exploring the world of fountain pens, especially the younger people, flex is becoming less of a big deal.  


Edited by max dog, 12 February 2018 - 08:30.


#5 JonSzanto

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:52

I think also as this niche fountain pen market grows and more people are exploring the world of fountain pens, especially the younger people, flex is becoming less of a big deal.  

 

Why, precisely?


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#6 sciumbasci

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:09

What I consider experienced people here often say that "if you want to experience real flex nibs, use dip pens".

So I wonder: is why isn't the Desiderata as common as it should be? Is uses a dip nib, you can and must swap it out often, is reasonably priced and Pierre seems passionate about his work. Now, I don't care for flex nor I have experience with it, but seems like the Lamy Safari of flexible nibs to me.

Edited by sciumbasci, 12 February 2018 - 09:11.


#7 Inksomnia

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:49

I personally don't care about flex. I have really nice vintage flex nibs, but I don't use them for "flex" writing. I have also found, that people who don't have experience with fountain pens, tend to belive that every fountain pen has this magical full flex wetnoodle blaablaa nib. If I want to something that produces line variation I use script brush. Dip pens are too scratchy.

 

Reason I use fountain pens, is  because I don't need to press my pen to paper at all, flex seems something really opposite. But I'm not calligrapher, nor write cursive. I'm artist, but still don't get why someone would want to use flex nib for drawing. It much faster to go lines twice. Also when drawing it is common to go every possible direction with pen and using flex for linevariation forces me spin my paper like tornado.

 

But maybe it just that people want special nibs? I don't care about flex nib, but I would really love needlepoint option. Flex may be that special thing to someone. I have so many EF nibs, that I have hard time buying new pens, because I want something different from my previous pens.


Edited by Inksomnia, 12 February 2018 - 10:52.


#8 richardandtracy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:27

I honestly don't know much about this flex business. However I have a couple of old pens other people call 'quite flexy', and have tried a Delta Titanium nib (which is probably a 'semi-flex'). 

I don't use much force at all when writing, but do get a bit of variation in width with my old pens, and got no variation in the Delta nib at forces I was happy with using.

 

There really is something I can't articulate about how gorgeous the 'quite flexy' pens are to use. It's a sublime feeling that is virtually indescribable. Makes me cherish the pens.

The modern nib, well, it wasn't flexy, it was springy, scratchy and quite unpleasant. And I had to use excessive force to get any variation.

 

I would adore modern pens with the positive points of the old pens without their disadvantages (inadequate collector volume, mostly). Thus far I have not come across one. I shall have to use my old pens instead - Onoto 3000, 6233, Swan #2 Eyedropper & Blackbird (from before the time  when a model number was engraved on the Blackbird). These pens have a feel that the modern flex nib I tried didn't have, but I would love.

 

Maybe it's like 3D TV. The hysteria surrounding it has disappeared, mostly because it was found not to work as well as people wanted. I think the demand is there, but the modern offerings simply don't fulfil what's wanted.

 

Just my thought on the subject.

 

Richard.



#9 jar

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:39

Emojis replaced calling cards. Email replaced letters. SMS replaced email. Twitter replaced diplomacy. Using a flex nib requires practice, learning, contemplation, attention, work.


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#10 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:28

The bock Ti nib is about as flexible as a semiflex nib and it's way, WAY mushier.

 

That is untrue—or at least, it's not true of the one that I got.  It's not mushy at all, and it flexes not too differently from my 1920s vintage Wahl-Eversharps with FLEXIBLE stamped on the nibs.  (It's not a match for my 1930s Waterman Thorobred, but then not many vintage pens are either.  And the Thorobred is a cranky little thing that randomly burps ink and eats rubber sacs.)

 

 

Honestly, people are really weird about flex nibs. There are modern wet noodle flex nibs out there, but they're custom made. everything else is just varying degrees of semiflex.

 

I don't think it makes sense to claim there's nothing in between "wet noodle" and semiflex.  Those are the extremes.  Most of the vintage flex nibs sold back in their heyday, in the 1920s and 1930s, didn't conform to either of those extremes.

 

 

There is still a high demand for flex nibs. The biggest problem is that the easier design requires metallurgy we no longer have (or is no longer feasible to produce custom 14k alloys when off the shelf sheet stock is available) and they often require a lot more work to tune, which increases costs.

 

And so the urban myth continues.  "There are no modern flex nibs, and there never can be!"  It's still cited even when there's one for sale from the Goulet website for $60 plus shipping.  But then it's not a "wet noodle", which is the only thing you acknowledge as actually being a flex nib??



#11 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:35

Some points I'll just throw out, as I've tracked this issue for a few years as well - online, in correspondence, and at pen shows.

 

  • FPN is not the only audience driving the modern pen market. The fountain pen world is changing right now with a big influx of very young users and believe this is having an impact. You might see more dialogue (though I'm far from certain) if your reading carried you to other venues (such as the fp sub-reddit).

 

That's an interesting point.  I've only recently discovered Reddit, and I haven't even looked for a fountain pen department.  I am following /r/MechanicalKeyboards/ which has a lot of activity, and it's a great place to show off a photo or ask a quick question, but it doesn't seem to be a venue for much in-depth discussion of anything.

 

I won't be surprised if this ebbs and flows, but unless someone came up with a remarkable design and material that yielded a pen of noticeable flexation with little effort and modest cost…

 

From where I sit, the Bock Titan is that.  However, those young people you alluded to may have a different perception of value, and they may think that $60 for a nib is freakin crazy.



#12 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:38

How does one get themselves a Bock Titan nib?  Are they available in a number of brands or only with Karas Kustoms? 

 

Goulet sells Karas Ink pens with Titan nibs, and they also sell the replacement nib-and-feed modules for $60 (for the #6 nib).  I discovered by accident that the module swapped right into my Bexley 56, and of course you can disassemble it and swap the bare nib into most pens that take a #6.



#13 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:46

Emojis replaced calling cards. Email replaced letters. SMS replaced email. Twitter replaced diplomacy. Using a flex nib requires practice, learning, contemplation, attention, work.

 

Only if you think that writing with a fountain pen requires practice, learning, contemplation, attention, work.  But I don't bother with all that.  I just pick it up and start scribbling with it.  And this is the result…

 

bock_titan.jpg

 

I suggest zooming in on the word "for" there.  (You'll find several examples.)  There's easily 4X line variation from the F to the R.  I didn't use any special, carefully-practiced technique to do that.  I didn't even do it consciously.  I just wrote the word "for" and that's what came out.  That's what a flex pen is supposed to do for you.  And yes, that's the Bock Titan.



#14 Wolverine1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 14:12

I have a couple of vintage Waterman pens, with "true" flex nibs. However, since I have suffered the strokes, I find that using flex nibs is near impossible for me. So, the Watermans, and some other pens with modern somewhat flex nibs dont get any use.



#15 Christopher Godfrey

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 15:50

I think that TonyB's original post is thoughtful and he tries to be objective and I found it interesting.  Whether things are changing is anybody's guess.  All I know is that I do not buy pens with rigid nibs: I love vintage flex and I am <not> "into" calligraphy one little bit.  I love the way a vintage nib <gives> and responds under my fingers when I write (and I tend to write quickly).  I <do> have an Omas with a modern "extra-flessibile" nib and -- honestly -- I am not overly impressed!  It <is> very flexible, inasmuch as it gives (flexes), hugely; but there is almost no spring-back, giving an overall impression of the limp handshake of Uriah Heep!  It does not compare with my vintage Omas, Pelikans or Watermans.

 

Now, interestingly, I also have an Omas with titanium nib and I <love> it!  It does not flex in the same way as those just mentioned; but it has great spring-back and <feed-back>!  I enjoy using this one, whereas, when using the extra-flessibile nib, I am always tentative, wary of damaging it, it is so flaccid...I wonder if anyone else has one of these and has any comment?

 

I read good things about the new Auroras and Wahls; but I think that I shall steer clear (cannot afford them, really) and stick with my vintage jobs!


Edited by Christopher Godfrey, 12 February 2018 - 15:52.


#16 Bluey

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 16:06

Perhaps the "lot of pent-up demand for modern flex nibs" is just a tiny tiny minority shouting very loudly combined with background chatter.

Flex nibs are things which are nice to try once, but as I've found out, they have no practicality or long term usage needs and they quickly find their way to the bottom of the drawer.

I have a Pilot FA which is as close to vintage flex as you will find on a modern pen, but it just doesn't get used much anymore. The softness that I like is much better provided by the Falcon.

 

The flex pen is like that appertising 5 course meal with all your favourite foods that you see when you've got a full stomach. It's nice in theory.


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#17 JakobS

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 17:01

That's a fad for you I would say. Many people start out with an interest or desire, some try it out, many find it's not for them, too time consuming, or focus on an interest elsewhere and give it up, and a few continue on finding its something they enjoy beyond the initial fad. 

 

I would like to think that many of those who got into flex nibs, found the wider world of fountain pens and writing were pretty amazing, that they were missing out on some great writing experiences with non flex or "true flex" nibs. Perhaps even that they just wanted to write something, and focus the beauty of it in the meaning of the words written down, than any flourish, or variation of line.

 

The argument for using dip pens might have also moved people away from flex nibs in fountain pens. All that beautiful script writing they are seeing from the 19th century and before that they want to copy was born of flexible dip pens after all, and they are far cheaper, and easier find. 

 

But really, most people just found something else to be interested in, and moved on. The fad seems to be hanging on a bit though, I wouldn't hammer the final nail in the coffin yet....


Edited by JakobS, 12 February 2018 - 17:50.

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#18 Driften

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 17:44

 

Goulet sells Karas Ink pens with Titan nibs, and they also sell the replacement nib-and-feed modules for $60 (for the #6 nib).  I discovered by accident that the module swapped right into my Bexley 56, and of course you can disassemble it and swap the bare nib into most pens that take a #6.

 

 

Good to know! I had thought about getting one to go into my Bexley 56 which otherwise is sitting around unused with its 18k nib. 



#19 JonSzanto

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 17:45

That's an interesting point.  I've only recently discovered Reddit, and I haven't even looked for a fountain pen department.  I am following /r/MechanicalKeyboards/ which has a lot of activity, and it's a great place to show off a photo or ask a quick question, but it doesn't seem to be a venue for much in-depth discussion of anything.

 

That is *very* much the case. It is a completely different format from forums - very quick discussions that disappear in a day, hours usually. As such, you tend to see the same questions asked over and over again because... there isn't an easily found original reference. It's an immediate medium, which suits a new generation. I find it frustrating, but I like helping new pen users and it also has helped me to understand new and different interests in the pen world and how things are changing.

 

Only if you think that writing with a fountain pen requires practice, learning, contemplation, attention, work.  But I don't bother with all that.  I just pick it up and start scribbling with it.  And this is the result…

 

Tony, that is a bit disingenous. Yes, you have some width variation but everything still looks like basic everyday handwriting. It certainly does not exemplify the true qualities that can spring from a great flex nib, nor does it come close to the expressive scripts that can only be had with good equipment and a lot of practice. Don't get me wrong: my handwriting looks about like yours, and I can't write in a copperplate or spencerian-like fashion to save my life! However, many of the people who ooh and aah over flex are looking at exactly that as example: beautiful, graceful and florrid writing that can only be done with a truly responsive flex nib, patience, and skill.

No one says you can't use a flexible nib for just about anything, but the things they can do that no other nib can do require dedicated effort and you can't just ignore that with a wave of the hand and "hey, look at what I can do".


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#20 tonybelding

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 18:09

Tony, that is a bit disingenous. Yes, you have some width variation but everything still looks like basic everyday handwriting.

 

Yes, because that's what it is.  That's what it's supposed to be.

 

 

It certainly does not exemplify the true qualities that can spring from a great flex nib, nor does it come close to the expressive scripts that can only be had with good equipment and a lot of practice.

 

You mean with calligraphy pens.  Not fountain pens.

 

 

Don't get me wrong: my handwriting looks about like yours, and I can't write in a copperplate or spencerian-like fashion to save my life! However, many of the people who ooh and aah over flex are looking at exactly that as example: beautiful, graceful and florrid writing that can only be done with a truly responsive flex nib, patience, and skill.

 

Yes, with calligraphy pens, not fountain pens.  (Or, of course, by subjecting fountain pen nibs to abuse that will ruin them pretty quickly, but surely you didn't mean that.)

 

No one says you can't use a flexible nib for just about anything, but the things they can do that no other nib can do require dedicated effort and you can't just ignore that with a wave of the hand and "hey, look at what I can do".

 

Destroying vintage flex nibs is wrong.  Ruining modern ones is, at the very least, wasteful and foolish.  I can and do dismiss that practice, not with a wave of my hand, but with an argument that it's wrong and foolish.  There are cheap, disposable dip-pens designed for that kind of thing.  Use the right tool for the job!

 

Did people buying fountain pens with flex nibs in the 1920s and 1930s uses them to create elaborate copperplate effects?  I don't think so.  I think they used them exactly the way I used mine, for everyday writing.  A lot of them were people who grew up using flexible dip pens for their everyday writing, the way they learned in grade school, and they wanted something familiar but with the convenience of an ink reservoir.





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