Flex Vs Non-Flex

[Bo Bo Olson]

It is an lefty issue............might even be one in oblique semi-flex unless you can find a right footed one, which are for lefies... don't know if it's good for over-writers or not.

 

Hunt for a long time on German Ebay, for Böhler (copy this word in you need the ö). It's twin theOsmia/Osmia-Faber Castell much easier to find....but in left foot....I do know both made right foot. They were once the same company owned by the Böhler brothers founded in 1922. The Osmium compound patent invented by a Heidelberg Professor was bought in 1922 so they named the pen, after the then wonder tipping....then the best tipping in the world.

Always broke, having no office supply company to support their pens, like Soennecken, MB, Pelikan and later Geha, they sold their nib factory to Degussa who was forced to stay in the building, in no skilled workers would move a whole 70KM to a strange town of Pfortzheim. Degussa continued making Osmia branded nibs in the old factory.........and like Rupp (1922-70)or the later 1938 Bock, made nibs to any specification the buyer wanted wholesale. Bock remains.

 

Both made a well made pen in the late '30-and 50's. Böhler............some times called Boehler here because of lack of umlaut ( you do need umlauts in German Ebay), will like Osmia say BBL, for a normal BB left foot oblique, or say BR for broad right foot. RF or LF...but I have regular or wider left foot nibs in Osmia.

The Böhler brothers split their firm Osmia in 1938. I think Faber-Castell was sticking it's nose too far into the business they bought into in 1936.

@ 1950 the rest of Osmia was bought up by Faber-Castell, needing a first class pen. But the ego of pencil makers who bought a dukedom title in the 1880-90's was too much and they started erasing Osmia from the pen, a little bit every year. Foolish, Faber-Castell made second tier pens, and everyone knew Osmia as a top flight pen.............but in the end the ball point killed O-F-C. By the end there was just Osmia's diamond on the first class nib with out even the Osmia. The steel nib was just as good as the grand gold nib.

 

Boelher Böhler, lasted into the '70's with cartridge and school pens. I have a simple second tier semi-hooded lightly gold plated semi-flex cartridge pen, that I'm thinking of inking ... it's out in my use cup. The nib is good, so why have a pen that is not used? Even if I prefer piston to cartridge.

 

I did luck into some BCHR Osmia pens, but they don't have the fancy spiderweb of one of the Boehlers.

 

A nice Osmia-Faber-Castell @ 1950-51. mdl 540. There are others in different models that are so marbled. There are older Osmia mdl 54s..

A sample of pre-war Böhler pens....as far as I knew didn't offer Supra Nibs...but my selection is very small. First is a full tortoise. Mdl 54 Gold,

BCHR...the last is more the Boehler and it's finial's HB design.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[max dog]

 

I think "wet noodle" has become a pretty useless term too, from over- and misuse. It used to be an essentially pejorative one: a nib that was too soft, virtually impossible to control, and with terrible snap-back. In other words, like a (duh) wet noodle. "Weak-kneed wet noodle" honestly doesn't mean anything to me: a wet noodle is already lacking any knees at all.

Yes in fountain pen semantics, "wet noodle" would be the antonym to "nail". Both kind of derogatory and useless terms. Each used to put down the merits of the other. There is quite a variance in softness in modern nibs that can appeal and work for many.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I think there is much more 'variance in softness' in vintage nibs.

 

The tipping after 1940 and the War, is better than pre-war, in it was then tipping was perfected. There was enough easy to apply heat to make a nice smooth tip....instead of lumpy and bump of pre-war times.

There are more 'butter smooth' nibs today, in the nibs are stiffer.........IMO not necessarily an advantage. More baby bottom too.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well, I inked that 'no name' Pewado' a very solidly made pen with a Degussa nib, after some years. It is dying, Plastic Gasket 1.0...made before May of '43. It was a pen that I'd thought first stage of superflex, Easy Full Flex like the 100n that I'd bought later. Plastic Gasket 2.0 came in @ 1955, the same gasket still used.

 

As a last resort I filled it with JP pen flush and let it wait a couple of days.....old gunk ink came out both ends of the piston pen. I inked it again ....this time with R&K's Alt Grungold...

 

It is Wet Noodle ......a bit more so than one of the '52's I have that is inked. Tested the uninked 52 (closer to that than I'd thought) and Soennecken is still the best wet noodle I have, it is still a bit easier to flex....

 

...yep, The Degussa nib in the Pewado is a wet noodle. Goes from F to BBB......easily .

Now I don't have to sweat to make a wet noodle go EEF or think to make it go EF.

Well Mauricio was right there is a very lot of variance in Superflex.

 

If I'd been as OCD as I once was, I might have found that out earlier, but I'd put that pen aside for newer and prettier pens....with names.

Hell, I'd had my Ahab Mod...easy full flex out for a year....till shortly before I got my first '52, which is still out, but hiding in the to clean cup. I could have had this Pewado out instead. (Does go to show I'm not heavy into Superflex.)

 

I think I've been bitten by an infectious bug....wondering about snap back...which the 52 nib that is not quite as easy to flex might have and this one not so much. Well, it's time to learn more...got to go over to the writing section to find out about snapback............hell could start learning how to write.

Well, not this month.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[tonybelding]

In my book, "nail" is not derisive at all. It's just a short way of saying extra-firm. I believe these were also referred to as manifold nibs in decades past, and they were supposed to work with carbon paper—a useful feature for many office workers. If you could go back to the 1950s–1960s, I suspect you would find that this type of pen was highly popular. In a time before rollerballs were readily available, a fountain pen that writes like a rollerball was something a lot of people wanted.

 

Nowadays the fountain pen snob is more likely to snurl his nose at a FP that writes like a "mere rollerball" and doesn't display its fountain pen heritage proudly with flexy-ness or stubby-ness or some such way (shading! sheen!). It's a bit silly, IMHO, but such are the ways of fad and fashion.

[JakobS]

What is interesting is the assumption, carried by some, that flex nibs were the natural or exclusive nib choice in vintage pens. Flex nibs were always uncommon nib types, yes when hundreds of millions of pens were being made they were more available then they are today, but they were always a small percent of the overall nibs being made. The most common nib types in the early 20th century were regular extra fine to fine tipped nibs. Medium nibs became more prominent later in century, and broads remained uncommon throughout, Pelikan and Montblanc being two manufacturers who might have had more of them available than others.

 

Flex was also not an exclusive quality of all dip pens either, certainly with no feed a dip pen can be softer than a fountain pen nib, but many dip pens were italic, oblique, even ball tipped and not meant to flex in the least.

 

The assumption that line variation or expression only can be had from a flex nib is interesting as well, for stiff italic, stub, oblique, and architect/arabic nibs provide just as interesting variation as flex nibs and indeed can be used to create a broader collection of hands than them as well.

 

The key to the fountain pen was a need to communicate, for most people that didn't need to be done with flourishes, or extremes of line variation, that was always left to the penman. For others, a stiff nib created, and carried their notes, letters, and ideas to where they needed to go to achieve a means to an end. It provided a smooth, light flow of ink to paper that isn't matched by any ball point, rollerball, or even gel pen if made and used correctly.

Edited January 22, 2018 by JakobS

[Bo Bo Olson]

Again and again....which flex pen???....a regular flex, semi-flex or superflex???

Yep, right here on this com....some coming from nail, have thought a regular flex ,a semi-flex because the tine bent and spread.

Or is a semi-flex the same as a superflex in many minds here?

 

"""for stiff italic, stub, (add CI), oblique (not unless it's semi-flex otherwise a total waste of money for line variation) , and architect/arabic nibs provide just as interesting variation as flex nibs and indeed can be used to create a broader collection of hands than them as well."""

 

Any of those nibs are only 100% of it's grind pattern............German stub semi-flex and semi-flex oblique are line variation On Demand. Thinner line or thicker when you wish....or how hard you press normally.

 

I have a few nails, two semi-nails....I have a couple of them also in CI and Stub.

Outside my semi-nail P-75, I don't often reach for any, that don't have modified nibs, like my '36 Canadian factory BB stub on my '39 Vac....or stubbed down 600 BB to 1.0.

I have a 'butter smooth' M Townsend....under the bed. ...Ah Ha....I should get it stubbed.

 

Just about everyone here but Jar is too young to remember the old Quaker Oats TV ads, where some boy askes the o' Southern Col, "What do they do?" Answered "They just lie there."

Was Quaker Oats answer to Rice Crispies, which made noise when milk was pored on them.

That's my impression of nails/manifold nibs....they just lie there.

 

I like my hand full of regular flex...double hand full of semi&maxi.....and have a small hand full of Superflex.

Stubbed nail is a cheap way to get line variation..Parker did a lot of that in the '30's. The Germans also had stubbed nibs...but those were in semi-flex.

Of course Italic nibs are stiff....they won't work right if not stiff. A regular flex or semi-flex nib won't draw Italic letters properly ...could well be a semi-nail would have too much flex for Italic.

 

 

 

Many fountain pens back then '50s-60s (and before) were regular flex...(which is a real forgotten flex here on this com).........like my ugly post '60 Esterbrook, or various Wearever or Venus school pens of the time.

I don't remember what my stolen from me P-45 was but would guess it a nail. Sigh cubed, no I didn't have a nice colored Eastie from that time....but it would have been stolen too.

As school kids we were remarkably ignorant of pens.....like clean a pen???? Why? Stiff or regular flex nibs?

Snorkel much less a semi-flex Snorkel (which of course I had no idea even existed back in HS...much less before), was for when one was an adult....like getting a Thunderbird sports car when one grew up.

 

At the beginning of school years because fountain pens and Parker Jotters were so stolen, I got a new pen and Jotter every year...............when cartridges really came in on the lower end, they were too expensive for a school kid, same with a Jotter refill.*** Papermate was actually once a fairly nice ball point.

***One did want a life, a bottle of ten cent coke, a big nickle Snickers or a nickle pack of pack of baseball cards..............then come Marvel comics with real art work............Yep...8th&9th grade boys talking about Art Work.

 

The Sheaffer Triumph nibs were introduced in the early 40's...Parker had gone nail by the late '30's, so Sheaffer had to have one .... if they didn't have nail nibs before to match the nail Vac & P-51.

The Snorkel came as I recall, in nail, regular flex and rare semi-flex.....so there was a choice offered by Sheaffer to nib stiffness.....and Esterbrook had everything....though folks say the semi-flex was hard to flex.

 

I don't care for nails......coming back to regular flex as a nice nib after a long stay in semi-flex. Still enjoy semi-flex when I want.

 

But as with all nibs it's what are you going to use it for.

 

I think I can remember someone digging out a nail to deal with carbons, and going back to his regular fountain pen afterwards. I really didn't pay much attention to that...not having to deal with carbons.

By the time I did, I flew a Ball Point.

 

And five carbon with 6 copies was used in dip pen days....Rail Road Orders were 6 copies in 1870 at least. So it wasn't just the '50-60's.

 

 

Snobbishness is learned here. I was once a gold snob ............and learned here to disrespect the fine M nibs.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[jmnav]

Well, the "nail" term can be derogatory... when it means to be derogatory.

 

Within my short collection, I own a late 90's Montblanc 146 which is a nail, on full derogatory intention -I don't expected nor wanted it to be that way. On the other hand, I own a Parker 21 Special, which is also a nail almost by definition, that is a pleasure to write with -because it was expected and it's on its nature.

 

I also dismiss those thinking that flexes/semiflexes need any special technic. Yes, in order to produce nice spencerian or cooperplate out of them you need a lot of practice and, even then, writing slow and carefully. But they don't need to be used that way: you can just write "normal" cursive and enjoy the feedback and the feeling, and (in my short experience) that's more amenable the more flexible the nib is: the more it's like a brush, as opposed to a nail, the better. But, of course, you should enjoy writing with a brush instead of a nail.

[TSherbs]

You'll never hear me denigrate a rigid nib because it is rigid.

[sidthecat]

My best nibs allow me to write with a great deal of thick-and-thin with very light pressure. If you write with a heavy hand you may not be getting all you can out of a flex nib.

 

As a lefty, I’ve had to assume a somewhat weird hand position to be able to pull lines instead of pushing them, but the results are worth a certain amount of ridicule.

[max dog]

Again and again....which flex pen???....a regular flex, semi-flex or superflex???

Yep, right here on this com....some coming from nail, have thought a regular flex ,a semi-flex because the tine bent and spread.

Or is a semi-flex the same as a superflex in many minds here?

 

"""for stiff italic, stub, (add CI), oblique (not unless it's semi-flex otherwise a total waste of money for line variation) , and architect/arabic nibs provide just as interesting variation as flex nibs and indeed can be used to create a broader collection of hands than them as well."""

 

Any of those nibs are only 100% of it's grind pattern............German stub semi-flex and semi-flex oblique are line variation On Demand. Thinner line or thicker when you wish....or how hard you press normally.

 

I have a few nails, two semi-nails....I have a couple of them also in CI and Stub.

Outside my semi-nail P-75, I don't often reach for any, that don't have modified nibs, like my '36 Canadian factory BB stub on my '39 Vac....or stubbed down 600 BB to 1.0.

I have a 'butter smooth' M Townsend....under the bed. ...Ah Ha....I should get it stubbed.

 

Just about everyone here but Jar is too young to remember the old Quaker Oats TV ads, where some boy askes the o' Southern Col, "What do they do?" Answered "They just lie there."

Was Quaker Oats answer to Rice Crispies, which made noise when milk was pored on them.

That's my impression of nails/manifold nibs....they just lie there.

 

I like my hand full of regular flex...double hand full of semi&maxi.....and have a small hand full of Superflex.

Stubbed nail is a cheap way to get line variation..Parker did a lot of that in the '30's. The Germans also had stubbed nibs...but those were in semi-flex.

Of course Italic nibs are stiff....they won't work right if not stiff. A regular flex or semi-flex nib won't draw Italic letters properly ...could well be a semi-nail would have too much flex for Italic.

 

 

 

Many fountain pens back then '50s-60s (and before) were regular flex...(which is a real forgotten flex here on this com).........like my ugly post '60 Esterbrook, or various Wearever or Venus school pens of the time.

I don't remember what my stolen from me P-45 was but would guess it a nail. Sigh cubed, no I didn't have a nice colored Eastie from that time....but it would have been stolen too.

As school kids we were remarkably ignorant of pens.....like clean a pen???? Why? Stiff or regular flex nibs?

Snorkel much less a semi-flex Snorkel (which of course I had no idea even existed back in HS...much less before), was for when one was an adult....like getting a Thunderbird sports car when one grew up.

 

At the beginning of school years because fountain pens and Parker Jotters were so stolen, I got a new pen and Jotter every year...............when cartridges really came in on the lower end, they were too expensive for a school kid, same with a Jotter refill.*** Papermate was actually once a fairly nice ball point.

***One did want a life, a bottle of ten cent coke, a big nickle Snickers or a nickle pack of pack of baseball cards..............then come Marvel comics with real art work............Yep...8th&9th grade boys talking about Art Work.

 

The Sheaffer Triumph nibs were introduced in the early 40's...Parker had gone nail by the late '30's, so Sheaffer had to have one .... if they didn't have nail nibs before to match the nail Vac & P-51.

The Snorkel came as I recall, in nail, regular flex and rare semi-flex.....so there was a choice offered by Sheaffer to nib stiffness.....and Esterbrook had everything....though folks say the semi-flex was hard to flex.

 

I don't care for nails......coming back to regular flex as a nice nib after a long stay in semi-flex. Still enjoy semi-flex when I want.

 

But as with all nibs it's what are you going to use it for.

 

I think I can remember someone digging out a nail to deal with carbons, and going back to his regular fountain pen afterwards. I really didn't pay much attention to that...not having to deal with carbons.

By the time I did, I flew a Ball Point.

 

And five carbon with 6 copies was used in dip pen days....Rail Road Orders were 6 copies in 1870 at least. So it wasn't just the '50-60's.

 

 

Snobbishness is learned here. I was once a gold snob ............and learned here to disrespect the fine M nibs.

 

Here is a vintage Waterman 52V flex writing sample (in blue) next to a modern, nail as you call it, Pilot 74 (top pen) with a soft nib. The line variation from the Pilot 74 I think is quite respectable compared to the vintage flex pen. Of course I could push the Waterman 52V for quite a bit more line variation (see 2nd image below), but its not what even vintage flex nibs were meant to do regularly unless you want to shorten its life. Click on the image to see in full size.

 

Here if I push the vintage to the max to show off, it certainly can squeeze out a lot more line variation than the modern pilot, but I dont think the vintage flex nib is meant to be pushed to the max like this day and day out.

 

And the modern Pilot 912 FA is even softer.

Edited January 23, 2018 by max dog

[Bo Bo Olson]

"modern, nail as you call it, Pilot 74 (top pen) with a soft nib."""

 

A modified factory nib, or even DIY modified, is not a nail. I have never called a "soft" nib a nail.

A nail has a 1 X tine spread unless you have Jackhammer hands.

 

So that 74 is a nail before modifying?

Or was it a regular flex?

 

Do you have a vintage German semi-flex? In the Pilot seems to me to have a 3X tine spread.

Or any one with both, and the Pilot 74 Mod?

 

The 52V looks to be a 4-5 X flex width.

[ReadyFireAim]

FPR Himalayan / Creaper & Bungubox Tears of Clown

 

Here is a vintage Waterman 52V flex writing sample....

I like writing samples...Very nice

[TSherbs]

[url="https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?app=core]

 

I like writing samples...Very nice

Apropos moniker 😊

[max dog]

"modern, nail as you call it, Pilot 74 (top pen) with a soft nib."""

 

A modified factory nib, or even DIY modified, is not a nail. I have never called a "soft" nib a nail.

A nail has a 1 X tine spread unless you have Jackhammer hands.

 

So that 74 is a nail before modifying?

Or was it a regular flex?

 

Do you have a vintage German semi-flex? In the Pilot seems to me to have a 3X tine spread.

Or any one with both, and the Pilot 74 Mod?

 

The 52V looks to be a 4-5 X flex width.

Neither the 74 nor 912 FA are modified. They are factory stock. They come soft. So I just wanted to illustrate that with modern factory nibs (unmodified), while some are rigid, there are some good soft nibs as well with decent line variation.

Edited January 23, 2018 by max dog

[jmnav]

It is an lefty issue............might even be one in oblique semi-flex unless you can find a right footed one, which are for lefies...

You can bet right footed obliques are not only for lefties. In fact I'm astounded as to why are they so uncommon when they are the perfect answer for good looking cursive without investing the time and effort on learning how to manage a flex nib, cooperplate and all that stuff.

 

In other news... Those Böhler of yours are simpy gorgeus!

[Bo Bo Olson]

"""""Neither????? the 74 nor 912 FA are modified*****. They are factory stock. They come soft. So I just wanted to illustrate that with modern factory nibs (unmodified), while some are rigid, there are some good soft nibs as well with decent line variation. """"

xxxxxx

*****Both the 74 the 912 is modified and at the factory! ....Nibs that have half moons found out, or slits into them factory or not..... are 'modified'!

 

They are not as say a '50's Pelikan 400/400nn or many other German pens of the '30-60's, semi-flex with out cut outs....or regular nibbed superflex. If you so rate them..........there for they are modified.

 

So how soft are the 74 and 912 un-modified ...nail or regular flex????

 

.....though sigh, it appears regular flex is indeed a lost nib flex to many here..............

You can find some Esterbrooks nibs, Wearevers or a number of vintage Sheaffer pens that are and were regular flex. A Pelikan 200 is regular flex.

 

I am asking about normal non modified factory nibs, regular flex when well mashed have a tine spread of 3X.

Or perhaps.....semi-nail....you know...if well mashed has a tine spread of 2X, like a P-75.

Nails take a weight lifter to go above 1X......or a ham fisted noobie, straight in from ball points.

 

What flex has those Japanese nibs before modification?

Edited January 23, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[mana]

Good heavens...



Repeat after me, please:
"

A tool is a tool is a tool".

Now, 

I choose my tools to suit
the need, the want, and occasion.



For you see, sometimes…

a nib rigid has the better tines.


For whence you are on the move,

flex truly is not a boon.



Seated in a bus, car, or a trolley,

all wobbly, there flex is but a folly.



But mind your time by a table,

with a hand soft, fonder and stable.



Letting your thoughts wander,
there, flex can truly be a wonder.



There are of course, nibs of other forms,
of many widths and degrees of firmness.


Think of flairy stubs, italics and obliques,
a cornucopia of points to meet ones needs.

And therein lies the beauty of it all.


For as many a hand there are in need,
more pens and nibs there are them to meet.


To lay down a beautiful stroke, and merry make,
as soon as you’ve found the pen your soul to take.

...

[max dog]

"""""Neither????? the 74 nor 912 FA are modified*****. They are factory stock. They come soft. So I just wanted to illustrate that with modern factory nibs (unmodified), while some are rigid, there are some good soft nibs as well with decent line variation. """"

xxxxxx

*****Both the 74 the 912 is modified and at the factory! ....Nibs that have half moons found out, or slits into them factory or not..... are 'modified'!

 

They are not as say a '50's Pelikan 400/400nn or many other German pens of the '30-60's, semi-flex with out cut outs....or regular nibbed superflex. If you so rate them..........there for they are modified.

 

So how soft are the 74 and 912 un-modified ...nail or regular flex????

 

.....though sigh, it appears regular flex is indeed a lost nib flex to many here..............

You can find some Esterbrooks nibs, Wearevers or a number of vintage Sheaffer pens that are and were regular flex. A Pelikan 200 is regular flex.

 

I am asking about normal non modified factory nibs, regular flex when well mashed have a tine spread of 3X.

Or perhaps.....semi-nail....you know...if well mashed has a tine spread of 2X, like a P-75.

Nails take a weight lifter to go above 1X......or a ham fisted noobie, straight in from ball points.

 

What flex has those Japanese nibs before modification?

There is no such thing as an unmodified FA. Thats is the way they come with the shoulders cut out. Soft nibs are standard options from Pilot on the 74 (EF, F, FM, M, SEF, SF, SFM, SM etc) so they are not modified. Modification means taking something and changing the way they normally appear. None of these nibs are modified! Maybe its time you should actually go out and see the nibs and handle them instead of reading about them and making all kinds of speculations. Edited January 24, 2018 by max dog

[tonybelding]

Nice quote. Mind if I use it too?

 

http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/pens/bock_titan.jpg

 

This is what I look for in a flex nib. I don't want to do calligraphy or exercises in how far I can split the tines. I just want something that adds a bit of character to my normal everyday handwriting—no special technique required. And I think I've got that with this Bexley 65 fitted with a Bock Titan F. Yes, I do have some vintage flex pens that will do even more, but they aren't robust and dependable in the same way that a modern pen is.