Flex Vs Non-Flex

[jhataway]

Most of todays nibs are rigid, and these nibs praobably serve 90%- of pen users. A rigid nib can be with a round, stub, italic grinds. They do their job, They are referred to as nails on this site, in a derogarory manner. why?

[Kanshaku]

For myself there is little difference between the ballpoint pen and the rigid fountain pen. Of course the latter allows for a greater variety of ink, can be in a potentially more beautiful pen body and perhaps the use of real ink adds a certain je ne sais quoi but why pay the extra?

Apologies to all of you happy nail users, and I grant that stub-, or italic- as I have always called them, nibs do add something but even they can be improved with a little flexibility.

The first fountain pens tried to mimic dip pens which in turn tried to mimic—obviously flexible—quills. Today the trend is to mimic ballpoint pens with fountain pens which for me is taking a step backwards. Indeed for me it makes no logical sense: why would you want to swap the relatively smudge free and waterproof ballpoint for the messier fountain pen unless it brought something extra?

Sadly, today, few manufacturers provide truly flexible pens and I think writing is less beautiful as a result.

[dennis_f]

I can't speak to everyone's use of the term, but in my case, having a little bit of play in the nib means a more enjoyable writing experience, not to mention a certain visual interest added to the writing itself. Before I did what I do now for a living my job involved writing, and if you spend hours every day putting pen to paper any feature that limits writing strain is a welcome one.

 

There are a number of features that affect the writing experience (ink flow, nib shape and stiffness, section width, pen weight and distribution of weight etc etc), and nib stiffness is only one of them. In my case, though, if the nib has zero give it undermines any of the other benefits offered by a good pen, and I think this may be the case for many people who refer to a "nail" in a negative way.

 

A softer nib means a cushier ride, and I think that if you compare the writing experience of a stiff nib to one that is less so, you'll find that a nail offers a different, less pleasurable kind of feedback when moved across a surface, not to mention accelerating writing fatigue.

 

As it turns out, I can also speak to this issue from the standpoint of someone who doesn't use pens for writing alone. Ironically, after switching careers my new job was still pen focussed. These days I use my pens mostly for drawing, and in this case nib stiffness once again plays a crucial role. A softer nib provides you with the ability to get a variety of lineweights out of one pen, and this is not only a real timesaver but it allows me to be more spontaneous in my work, since I don't have to interupt myself to redraw lines with different sized nibs. It also leads to far more expressive and interesting work, which matters in my field.

 

Ultimately, a softer nib is a more expressive nib, and provides a more comfortable experience, and when this is compared to a stiffer nib, the latter is seen as falling short of what is possible. I don't necessarily dislike nail-like nibs, and there are times when I really enjoy using a xxf with a very hard point, but I think that in general, less-reactive nibs are less interesting to most users.

 

D

Edited January 20, 2018 by dennis_f

[sidthecat]

I love the expressiveness of flexible nibs, but expressiveness requires the ability to control your writing. It’s taken several years of practice to achieve a reasonably attractive page of writing.

The point is that a flexible nib isn’t going to automatically improve your writing, but even if you scrawl it’s a lot of fun to write with one.

That said, one of my favorite pens is a semiflex Waterman (a Lady Elsa) with a plated nib. It still manages to be a very pretty writer.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Nail...no line variation...must be 'butter smooth' at all costs including baby bottom......Some respected posters have tried less rigid nibs and went back to nails....I only have a few nails....after I gave away two Lamy's to hook someone into fountain pens and inks.

 

....Some folks want a softer ride&cleaner line of regular flex, or in semi-flex vintage pens line variation in nibs with a tad of flex....Not Superflex!!! A different can of worms.

 

Many modern nails are fat wide tipped nibs. (fat, blobby&characterless. (not as clean a line as many regular flex nibs)...good to make stubs and CI out of)

 

Made so, so the user don't have to waste three minutes learning how to hold a fountain pen (behind the big index knuckle)....and the manufactures don't tell how in any instruction 1/4ths of a sheet in the warrentee booklet...in it may frighten the user of their ball point and roller ball away from fountain pens.

 

Even I who learned as a kid about fountain pens, in B&W TV days, after decades of ball point use, was Heavy Handed even after a year into using fountain pens....... Some folks are so Jack Hammer Handed they bend Nails!

I'd inherited some pens...from my wife's aunt. I chased dirt cheap pens of up to E20-30. I'd read about semi-flex, then in a flea market, I tested a semi-flex Pelikan 140 OB against my thumbnail and knew even with out inking....what the fuss was all about!

It took me some three months to lighten my Hand from Ham Fisted to only slightly heavy handed.....................many nail users are of course going to be heavy handed....dragging a ball point across a piece of paper is like plowing the south forty with out the mule.

 

Because of the many bent regular flex nibs were returned to the factory, the company went in many to most cases away from the then regular issue 'regular flex' nib in the mid-late '90's to a regular issue of semi-nail and nail nibs (even if regular issue are not 'regular flex'.)........so now regular flex is harder to find. The semi-vintage and vintage regular flex from late '90's past the '50's had a bit narrower nib, that wrote a cleaner line than the fat blobby 'butter smooth' often with baby bottom problem nibs.

 

Regular flex gives a nice springy ride & clean line...is hard to find now...outside the Pelikan 200 and semi-vintage and vintage in that flex rate....like some Esterbrooks or earlier Sheaffers...(Nice clean line. but you are not going to write and press it enough to give line variation.)

....I know nothing about Japanese pens. I live in Germany and had access to what was once Cheap German Ebay....but they see the prices they can get in the States... so start with a high start price in many cases now.

 

Nails (say a P-51, 800 or most modern pens) and semi-nail (P-75 only used here because the nice nib is semi-nail ( being vintage has a nice non-fat and blobby nib) or the modern 400/600 which do) Nails or semi-nails (like my 600BB nib) when stubbed or made CI, give 100% line variation always. Semi&maxi-semi-flex are as one good poster said, "line variation On Demand."

 

I have 26 semi-flex and 16 maxi-semi-flex....and got to like regular flex also...a bit later.

 

I get old fashioned fountain pen flare from semi-flex with out doing anything...only for an occasional fancy descender in see my signature.

Maxi-semi-flex one starts getting a nib that one can add fancy to your writing.

Regular, semi & maxi are in the 3 X times a light down stroke set.

 

You have to mash a regular flex to get 3X....semi-flex half of that, maxi, half of semi or 1/4th of the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3 X a light down stroke.

The thicker first half a letter, some other letters in a word where you use a bit more pressure, a crossing of the T, the way a nib goes from a fatter e to a narrower trailing as end letter is part of semi-flex.

 

Semi-flex can be had in '40's Eversharp (in the '30's Eversharp was superflex or had those nibs also).....there are rare early '50's Sheaffer semi-flex nibs also.

In Great Britain, both Parker then only a nail maker in the US, and Sheaffer, because Swan and other pen makers like Wyvern

 

I don't like the term 'Flex'.....are you talking about Regular, Semi, or Maxi?

Superflex is a proper term for a very flexible nib that spreads 4-5or6 and rarely to 7X no matter how many times you watch some one on YouTube or selling a pen over stress a nib making it do Olympic Splits. .............so which were you talking about that?

 

Superflex is more for a different post.

 

Many nail users and most 'noobie's are Ham Fisted from the use of Ball Points, I was.

Some coming from Nail, gets a regular flex and think it is Semi-Flex....the tines bend!!! The tines spread!!! They had read about folks raving about semi-flex....but not about raving about regular flex....which I tend to do now.

 

I only have some 12-15 regular flex....many semi-vintage and a two new 200's and a 215....Some day I got to go down and buy a nice 'narrow' semi-vintage width 200 nib....just for the hell of it.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Bluey]

Perhaps 'soft' is considered the middle ground here between nail and flex.

 

For flex, I don't have any use for. For me, vintage flex would be too much. It would do my head in after a while. The Pilot FA(I consider just a tad more than merely soft) is about the limit I could go for comfort.

 

My fave types of nibs are nibs which are slightly stubby and also nibs such as the Pilot Falcon which are slightly soft. For writing short letters, I like both but for fast and furious let-it-all-out journalling, slightly soft nibs are the best because they work like a shock absorber when I press down more the longer I write.

 

 

I don't refer to nails in any derogatory terms . The nib that is a nail is what it is, and there's no emotion in the word.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Bluey

[LizB]

The nib that is a nail is what it is, and there's no emotion in the word.

 

 

I agree, but I think the term *is* used with some frequency to describe normal rigid nibs in a derogatory manner. Personally I consider 'nails' to be nibs far more rigid than just average everyday nibs, the 90%. I get a sense for some a 'nail' is any nib without flex.

[Inkling13]

Most of todays nibs are rigid, and these nibs praobably serve 90%- of pen users. A rigid nib can be with a round, stub, italic grinds. They do their job, They are referred to as nails on this site, in a derogarory manner. why?

I think it's a form of elitism. Not everyone has the inclination, patience, or the ability to learn how to use a nib with flex without destroying it. That rules out 90% of the population. Anyone can buy any pen out there, with enough money. However, you can't buy the ability to use flex nibs.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Define soft.

Soft like regular flex....soft like semi-flex...IMO a large difference and so on.

 

A pure nail user could well define semi-nail as soft.....often I wonder if that is so when folks talk about soft gold nails.

I see no difference between the steel and gold nails I have. (3&3 I don't collect nails.) None of my gold nails...write softer....but perhaps I don't jack hammer enough.

 

 

I can define 8 flexes (of which I have 7) (counting a nail which don't. flex) Nail through to Weak Kneed Wet Noodle....the last I don't have.

 

 

"""with flex"""" How much?

Inking are you talking about superflex...or regular flex? It takes no great patience to learn to use a semi-flex....after all I did.....will admit it took me some time to stop maxing the nib due to Ham Fistedness, but by the end of three months...I was no longer so heavy handed.

(Forefinger Up method of grasping a fountain pen, will cure that in 3 minutes...automatically. That I learned on this com.

 

I do know that using Superflex it helps vastly to learn to draw the letters....so one has to take more time at first.......still is by me....open book, draw letters if I want to get fancy....Blow off dust rust.....

Edited January 20, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[CraigR]

Not sure that I follow all of the discussion in this thread, but I am excited about learning more. I own 2 pens with significant flex, but have never taken the time to actually learn to use them properly. I am just starting to play with them and learn how to properly write with them.

 

To date, my favorite nibs have been stub and cursive italics because I think they make my handwriting more interesting. I am assuming that a nib with little or no "give" will be referred to as a "nail."

[Bo Bo Olson]

A nail has no give...a 1 X tine spread...the same as a light down stroke.

A semi-nail when mashed will go to 2X......like a P-75 or modern Pelikan 400/600.

 

Regular flex when well mashed will go to 3X tine spread.....of course you can't write with it when maxed....it's too much work.

 

But sooner or later one needs a regular flex to tell if you have a semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex.

A semi-flex takes half as much pressure to reach it's max of 3X.

Maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3X.

 

Going over the 3 X max in that nib set can and will very soon spring the nib.

 

Richard Bender has a great article about metal fatigue....which I call how to spring your nib 1.0.

 

 

Superflex is a combination of ease and width of tine spread...4 X, 5-6X often and rarely 7 X; no matter how often you see someone trying to spring his nib on Youtube or selling you a nib that might have done the Olympic Splits once too often.

 

That is very important in superflex nibs.......I do have some experience so can tell when a superflex seems to be reaching it's max. After the time or two I need to have reached that max, I strive to stay under it.

I have an Easy Full Flex...stage under a Wet Noodle, 5 X Pelikan 100n, that will go 5X...so I strive to keep it at a max of 4X...when I desire a bit of fancy. I rate that as first stage Easy Full Flex....takes 1/2 of the pressure needed to 3X a maxi-semi-flex or 1/8h the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3X.

 

Same goes for my 52, which is a 7 X superflex.

I have great trouble writing so light that it gives me EEF....EF requires a bit of thought. So mostly I scribble at F. The pen will go to BBB, therefore I strive to only go to BB.

True superflex has more variety in flex, than my simple 1/2 system 'shows'., but as a rough guide to Superflex...it is helpful to those brand new to superflex.

One should read Mauricio's blog...on superflex. I have three wet noodles only, one starts at what I call Easy Full Flex, then half way through slides into Super flex...it does go 7 X. The next is very nice and smooth but only 4-5 X. My Soennecken is smooth all the way through and goes 7X also.

 

I do have a few Easy Full flex Degussa nibs...the stage under a Wet Noodle....and one is German war 'no name' Pewado, a very solid pen....my first Easy Full Flex. My second was that 100n.If I hunt I should have a couple more that need repair, so are out of my memory.

 

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle....a term invented by a member here. John Sowobada(sp) a well known nib grinder who don't like being called a nib Meister.

I own none...don't want none. I have tested the nib of a MB Safety pen....and it was a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.

 

But for real flex, you have to go to dip pens, like the Hunt 99-100-101 or the fabled Gillette 303/404's which I don't have. They make a Wet Noodle look uncooked. Living in Germany; an Earthquake in California will flex them in the cup.

[ReadyFireAim]

... you can't buy the ability to use flex nibs.

Noodler's Creaper Poltergeist Pumpkin & PR Cadillac Green.

[jhataway]

Thanks (I think) for the responses. I guess to me the nibs on my Pelikan M600, Parker Centennial, and Onoto Magna Classic are “nails” as are most of my pens. I have an Eversharp Skyline that has a flex nib, but I wouldn’t want to even guess at which catagory of flex. I would have lumped my Parker 75 nibs into the “nail” catagory also, so I guess my idea of a nail nib is maybe broader than some of your ideas. I understand “soft” feel vs “hard” , but I never thought of either being flex.

 

I have nothing against flex nibs, and for those that know how to use them the results are beautiful. So I will use my “nails” and others can use whatever suits. If my penmanship were better, I might think about flex.

[max dog]

Nail is not a helpful nor accurate descriptor, as it is a term coined by vintage wet noodle fans or purists to dump virtually all modern nibs of varying softness into a single category as being rigid like a nail.

Edited January 21, 2018 by max dog

[ReadyFireAim]

Noodler's Creaper & Bungubox Clown Tears

[Tweel]

Nail is not a helpful nor accurate descriptor, as it is a term coined by vintage wet noodle fans or purists to dump virtually all modern nibs of varying softness into a single category as being rigid like a nail.

 

I think "wet noodle" has become a pretty useless term too, from over- and misuse. It used to be an essentially pejorative one: a nib that was too soft, virtually impossible to control, and with terrible snap-back. In other words, like a (duh) wet noodle. "Weak-kneed wet noodle" honestly doesn't mean anything to me: a wet noodle is already lacking any knees at all.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Tweel

[Amory]

Most of todays nibs are rigid, and these nibs praobably serve 90%- of pen users. A rigid nib can be with a round, stub, italic grinds. They do their job, They are referred to as nails on this site, in a derogarory manner. why?

From my (artists) point of view a fixed line width has applications as does a nib where line width may be altered by variance of pressure or direction. For me they are just tools waiting silently and patiently to be selected by artist or wordist for their suitability for the intended task.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Max...."""Nail is not a helpful nor accurate descriptor, as it is a term coined by vintage wet noodle fans***or purists???? to dump virtually all modern nibs of varying softness into a single category as being rigid like a nail."

***( If I was a fan, I'd have more than the three I have...no desire to get more. When one has worked one's way up the flex ladder, one should have one. but most noobies want to jump into the deep end of the pool with out waterwings.)

I do push the now rare regular flex any time I can. It's a comfortable ride....cleaner line, than modern fatter nibs. As far as I read, there's a lot of self inflected ignorance, where nails and semi-nails can be confused by the lazy....( nails = !x line variation...semi-nails when mashed, 2 X. ).............but I don't see all modern nibs as nails.....just most!!!

And no one is saying my XXX has a semi-nail...nib.

Few seem to have an idea if their nail is actually a semi-nail....much less outside the Pelikan 200, a regular flex.

Nail describes a rigid nib very well...manifold works too, but is no longer used as it once was. I understand manifold. To me a nail is a rigid or manifold nib............semi-nail......different less rigid ....just like semi-flex is different than the more 'rigid' regular flex.

And EF in nail is a needed nib for editing.

If one's job requires multiple copies still, a manifold or semi-manifold nib works fine....better than regular flex.

For 'noobies' coming over from ball point or the heavy handed....manifold is needed. I find manifold dull and boring....recommending making them stub and CI, when the time comes for a bit of variety in one's writing. .... Is cheaper than looking for semi-flex.

 

 

For pleasure of writing if one works at it a regular flex could be made butter smooth too.

I though like good and smooth, the step under....I can use slick paper with that smoothness. Having a bit of spring to the nib....sort of evens it out...that it's not butter smooth....just nearly butter smooth.

xxxxxxxxx

 

'30's Eversharp was sometimes superflex, the '40's semi-flex. Don't know what happened to their nib when Parker took them over and dropped them down to second or even third tier.

 

A 600 like the P-75 is a semi-nail.

 

I happen to like German semi-flex (26)....and the rarer maxi-semi-flex nibs(16). (Oamia is semi-flex with their Diamond nib, maxi-semi-flex with the Supra....all other's, Pelikan, Geha or MB that I have in maxi---say 1 in 5 are luck of the draw.

 

There is no difficulty using a semi-flex nib.....in it really don't do extra fancy unless you push the nib to max.

I was Ham Fisted enough when I came back to fountain pens after close to 4 decades of plowing the south forty with out the mule ball point use. It took me three months to lighten up my Hand so I wasn't always maxing my 140. You get half a fat letter with the first letter of a word....perhaps a few fat letters with in...depending on the letters.....gives nice flare to an e, where the body is fatter than the trailing end of the letter. The line variation is there, with in limits of normal writing.

Line variation 'On Demand'.

Semi-flex will give you that old fashioned fountain pen flair, with out having to do anything but write normally............it is not a superflex nib needed for Copperplate or Spenserian.

 

 

One of the reason's I keep harping on using superflex for "flex", is some 'noobie' is going to find a Pelikan 140 cheap at a flea market and know it's a semi-'Flex' pen and try to make it do Olympic Splits....and fail.

Look how much trouble there is comprehending flex, when the word superflex is not used.

My car has a powerful motor......... .....4 cylinder? , 6? or 8? That's the way the word 'flex' is used so often here.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Snapback...= them who can write. ...Not me.

With my 1/2 system....assuming you have a regular flex as the base pen.

In Superflex I have three rough flex grades (more for noobies to superflex)....in superflex, when one has enough pens, the lines blure rapidly.

Tine spread of 4- or often 5-6 and rarely 7 X.

 

Easy Full Flex needs only 1/8th the pressure to max a regular flex. One can get that flex rate with a Ahab Mod.....fun to write with.....can get fancy if one has a book.

 

Wet Noodle half of that or 1/16th of a regular flex....I have a dust rusted shut Italic calligraphy book. It shows how to draw letters. I used it a bit with superflex....not holding so high, and not canting the nib...........but it did show the strokes, and I find it helpful in drawing letters, any time I crack the dust rust.

 

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle, a term coined by John Sowobda(sp) the English nib grinder who had seen enough superflex to invent the term, is a nib I don't have and won't chase. I've had one in my hands....a '20's MB Safety Pen...... ................I don't really have that in my 'system' outside of saying it requires less pressure than a Wet Noodle. I don't worry about needing one either.....

As flexible as that MB nib was....it is not near as flexible as a Hunt 99-100-101, which make a Wet Noodle look uncooked.

There are middle range dip pen nibs like Soennecken that would match a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.

 

A long time ago, a man had some 9 or so superflex nibbed pens he 'tested' on an electric scale marking down how much pressure was needed to spread the tines....don't remember if that was start spreading, or maxing....think it was start spreading. There was a great variance of at what pressure the tines spread. I could see on one end what could be called Weak Kneed Wet Noodles.....................I couldn't arbitrarily nor anyone else where a dividing line could be drawn....buy the numbers.

 

Then I only had a superflex Degussa nibbed no name German War pen and a Soennecken superflex.

The first was twice as hard to flex and the second. Bingo!

Checking them vs my regular flex nibs, they fit into my half&half again system, if I could and did name the first 1/3 of that fellas numbering, as Easy Full Flex. That left the(large) middle to Wet Noodle.

 

Mauricio don't like my system of dividing up superflex....but as a professional specializing in superflex, he sees therefore knows much more than me.

He says to get a superflex nib to work at it's very best, requires lots and lots of fiddly work, setting the nib's depth into the pen and how close the feed end is to the nib end. Different for each nib as there is much variance in superflex nibs......feeds too; one will be faster than another.

 

There is no way in hell, I'd fiddle with either of the 52's I have from him.

I seemed to have lucked out with my Soennecken nib when I put it back on the pen.....If I was wise I'd send it to him to get it maximized....but it works like a charm right now.

 

I don't practice drawing letters enough to make any of my superflex nibs really worth having.

They are fun enough to write with, but I could get so much more out of them if I practiced drawing letters until it became automatic.

They are still nice to scribble with.

 

Some fine poster, found some info....from the '30's by Waterman....in the time of the fabled Pink nib; Waterman was after ease of tine bend....and a 3X tine spread, so what it really looks like is we are all over stressing our Waterman nibs....pushing them to 5 or 6 X....much less the 7 some can reach.

[Aysedasi]

For me, as a lefty overwriter, flex is pretty much an expletive. I've never been able to write with flex nibs and I've bought countless lovely vintage pens that I've had to sell on because I couldn't handle the flex they turned out to have. I don't know if it's a leftie issue, but I avoid them like the plague. Give me a nice wide nail any time!