Flexible Nibs

[mke]

I often hear that only vintage flex nibs are real flex nibs?

What is real flex?

Are such nibs not produced anymore?

If so - what was different - then and now?

 

Please enlighten me. Links are also welcome.

 

Thank you

[mke]

Just got a link which I want to share with you:

http://www.vintagepen.net/performance-flex.html

[Bo Bo Olson]

Mauricio is the guru of superflex.

Calling it just 'flex' takes up too much space....regular flex, semi-flex, maxi-semi-flex and then comes three stages of superflex.

Which do you mean.....to a pure nail user....some think regular flex must be semi-flex....in the tines Bend!!! and Spread!!!!

 

Mauricio says my system is too simple for superflex....he's right, but as a beginner with out an idea of A&E....it helps.

My system is based off the regular flex and then each lower flex rate at 1/2 of the harder.

 

If you mash a regular flex so the nib is 3 X a light down stroke.....semi-flex is half of that, maxi half of that or 1/4th the pressure to get a regular flex to 3 X...................all three are in a 3 X tine spread max set.

Press the nib more than that and it will spring. First no one really....I hope no one normally maxes a regular flex....that would be real jack hammer hands.

In spite of have used a fountain pen as a child....when I got my first semi-flex it took me some three months to lighten my hand from always maxing the nib....I was Ham Fisted.

 

Superflex is more tine bend and spread. 4X occasionally, 5- or 6 often....and out side of watching a guy spring a nib in his Youtube video or writing samples on Ebay.....7 X is rare.

I do have problems with that....it's very hard for me to write at XXF.....EF requires thought so often I scribble at F.

 

Richard Binder has a great article on metal fatigue, I call 'how to spring your nib'.....basically by maxing it all the time. My 7 X nibs I take only to 6 X....to BB not to BBB.....my 5 X 100n to 4 X.

Those who can write with superflex are more worried about a think line and fast snap back than how wide the nib can be made to write.

 

Back to my system of 1/2's. For beginners Superflex has three stages.............the more Superflex nibs one has the less differentiation there is.

What I call Easy Full Flex......1/8 the pressure needed to mash a regular flex nib to it's max.

Wet Noodle.....1/16th.

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle a term invented by Oxnard on the com, John Sowbda(sp) the British nib grinder....who don't like being called a nibmeister. That is even less, but I have none, nor do I seek any or I'd really have to learn to write.

 

Dip pen nibs, some are stiff, some not much more than Wet Noodle......and some that make a Wet Noodle look uncooked, like the fabled Gillette 303/404 or the Hunt 99-100-101.

 

Ahab is a superflex nib pen (the tine spread is there if you press hard).....that requires semi-flex pressure to spread it's tines....which is very, very much pressure for superflex. If you grind the two little half moons into the sides of the nib in the "Ahab Mod", the nib becomes Easy Full Flex. My Ahab sat in the pen box, until a nice poster here did the mod for me. Then it was out in use for a full year....then other pens needed time in the pen cup.

 

One of the problems is in spite of me telling folks to go to German Ebay, where they can get affordable Geha 790 semi-flex for E30-60 if you Hunt..(and stay away from 'Buy Now Idiot'..or even almost affordable E100 Pelikan 140, 400 and 400nn from the '50-60's....they don't do it................US prices are so high....that's the only place I'd sell a pen.

If you don't have a regular flex like the Geha School pen for E12-19....not the only $89 German pirates offer on US Ebay. (Esterbrook or some Sheaffers are also regular flex) or a semi-flex pen, how can you learn about flex rates?

 

The Hunt for a pen near your limit is fun......takes a while.........you can fish in a stream or in an overstocked pond. Which is more fun? If not this week, next week that pen will be there at your price...or next month.

 

From my reading....the so called 'modern' flex pens are either similar to the Ahab or have only a real semi-flex rating....and are being sold as 'flex' pens.............none say they are superflex, in they are not.

 

If the nib has little half moons, or other cut grinds they can be at least Easy Full Flex........which is good, a fun nib.

Aurora use to make just semi-flex to about 10 years ago....and have come back to making them....but they are gouging the market now. They too no longer call it semi-flex, but 'flex' in more idiots will buy it....and semi-flex don't sound as good as it once did.

 

The easiest and cheapest way to learn about superflex is dip pens.....and the Z nib is a beginner's nib, not very flexible compared to the Hunt 99-100-101's.

But the Z nib is popular because it's readily available and not too expensive.

[NicolausPiscator]

Jup! I can't add much to Bo Bo Olsen's post. But I would encourage you to make your own experiments with modern soft and modern "flexible" nibs. The best way, indeed, is to start with vintage and modern dip nibs which is not too expensive compared to the purchase of fountain pens. And this will give you an excellent impression of the behaviour of nibs in general and of "flexible" nibs in particular.

[welch]

Pens with flexible nibs were a small part of the market, and nearly disappeared after about 1940. Americans were taught to write quickly and clearly; look at the older writing manuals that Pendemonium has found, or consider that the popular Palmer Method was intended for business writing. Notice the way people write in such movies as "Now Voyager" -- Bette Davis and her character's mother are writing in the lounge of an ocean liner, using dip pens and open bottles of ink just the way someplace today might have throwaway ballpoints. They write quickly.

 

I have read court documents from 1866. All but one is written in the same style that I remember from the late '50s: clear, no flourishes, no "line variation". Business writing.

 

Are the new "flexible" pens as good as or just like flex nib pens from the late '30s? See Bo Bo's comment and the explanation from Mauricio.

[ReadyFireAim]

[LizEF]

IMG_0679.JPG

 

Is that a Nemosine Singularity with a flex nib on it? (Asked incredulously.) It looks like the section for one, and it will take a #6 nib, I just never heard of anyone doing it. If not, please tell us what it is. Also, is that a G nib, or...?

Edited January 4, 2018 by LizEF

[ReadyFireAim]

 

Is that a Nemosine Singularity with a flex nib on it?

[LizEF]

IMG_0681.JPG

 

Cool, thank you. Nice to know Ahab nibs will fit in Singularities - first time I think I've seen someone put a flex nib in one of those - not that I've been looking.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm writing a western taking place in 1881, business scrip was in wide use. Spenserian was for the 'upper class' or for signatures....even if Spenserian came in @ 1850.....and Wiki is Wrong that it was standard business script.

Back then if your family was rich enough to send you to HS you could get a stand up white collar job as a clerk....but by 1880 one had to take a 6-12 week course at a Business collage....one could excel and get through in 6 weeks not the normal 10-12 weeks.

There were business collages everywhere, in HS didn't teach enough business.

 

People that wanted to get ahead, had good home study books on all aspects of business. A book that I use as a reference had to do with business forms; had a portion of how to write business script. Besides the forms, it had the bookkeeping, how to do interest was learned in school.

 

A clip board was hi tec in 1880.

 

You never see a western store in a movie, with bills and receipts punched with a needle and twine and hanging up at the back of the counter for bookkeeping. SOP....it wasn't until the late 1880's-90's that file cabinets came in........and the pigeon hole desk was very inefficient....lasting only some 15 years until it was outdated in any up to the minute business. Too many important papers became 'lost'.

 

Stiffer nibs were available....and double sided carbon paper was from the late 1860's. Train orders were six pages. The first went to the Captain of the Train, the conductor who made $5.00 a day...the Eagle Eye.....$4.00 and the fireman, was an apprentice engineer. They got the next two copies. The two breakmen copy 4&5...The Station Agent or Manager the last least readable copy.

The fireman needed his copy should the Engineer keel over....the Breakmen had to have readable copy....in case the Tough work up from the tracks...once a breakman with his 'Staff of Ignorance' died. Someone needed to be Captain of the train.

 

There is no way a Gillette 303 could write carbon copies.

 

Before single sided carbon paper came, double sided was used, and the back side of the business letter proved you wrote it....and the one on the far side of the letter got the carbon copy. I'm sure double sided was used for quite a while after 1870, for proof of sending, until typewriters started coming in in the late 1870's.....

 

Civilization started in 1884 with the invention of the electric fan and the flyswatter.

Imagine, long underwear and a three piece wool suit in August in Atlanta. No wonder they spoke so slow.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Bo Bo Olson]

Bordeaux.....how hard did you have to press?

Fine writing though.

[ReadyFireAim]

 

Bordeaux.....how hard did you have to press?

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

There are folks like that....who think a gold nail is 'soft'.

See you can write....using terminology I don't know....OK I know what hairlines are....but 'Mouse Trap Snap.... is the deep end of the pool.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[NicolausPiscator]

Pens with flexible nibs were a small part of the market, and nearly disappeared after about 1940. Americans were taught to write quickly and clearly; look at the older writing manuals that Pendemonium has found, or consider that the popular Palmer Method was intended for business writing. Notice the way people write in such movies as "Now Voyager" -- Bette Davis and her character's mother are writing in the lounge of an ocean liner, using dip pens and open bottles of ink just the way someplace today might have throwaway ballpoints. They write quickly.

 

I have read court documents from 1866. All but one is written in the same style that I remember from the late '50s: clear, no flourishes, no "line variation". Business writing.

 

Are the new "flexible" pens as good as or just like flex nib pens from the late '30s? See Bo Bo's comment and the explanation from Mauricio.

 

Thank you for your remarks! This is indeed also my impression. I have studied several archives and letters from the last 200 years. As you say business writing is predominant. In letters from the 19th century I found line variations in the German Kurrent style which are called Schwellzüge (sing. Schwellzug). It disappeared with the so called Sütterlin and I would guess with the introduction of the fountain pen.

[sidthecat]

I blundered into the web of 19th century gold nibs and if you’re interested in the extremes of flex they’re worth seeking out. A number of the early fountain pen makers were dip-pen makers first.

[allen_paris]

I don't know if my answer is suitable but before to explore the universe of the vintage (so huge and confusing that it's highly advisable to look for nice pens in penshow, much more on ebay) there are modern pens with some flex. Like Omas if you can get an extraflessibile nib (remain a semiflex nib but so smooth and with the pleasure of having a daily pen). quiet expansive but worth it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Omas extraflessibile nib is not from my reading a semi-flex......it could though be a 'Springy' nib like a Falcon, modern MB or the great Lamy Imporium nib......good tine bend, but only 2 X tine spread.

[RockingLR]

I think it all depends on what you want to do with the flex nib's. Bo bo olson did a really good job of describing them. I think I would start with the cheap Noodlers pens and see if you even like the flex nibs. If you decide you do you can modify the konrads and ahabs for the flex mod to make them really fun to play with, or you can look into vintage pens. I don't think there's a HUGE amount of difference in modern (noodlers) and many of the pens on ebay that are toated as flex. Many of them are semi flex at best, at least the ones in the won't break the bank level. Always try to find a reputable dealer and if nothing else one with a return policy so if you don't like it your not stuck trying to re-sell it.

I have both modern and several vintage semi-flex, one easy full flex bordering on wet noodle, and several modern flex pens. I have fun with them all and use them mostly as every day writers and then occasionally find a reason to flex them. My hand writing style isn't naturally flowy and conducive to flex so that's what I do. Have fun, experiment and don't think that the vintage are "holy grail OMG" kind of pens. They are certainly a blast but not the end all be all as some praise them to be, at least in my experience. I will say the nibs on the vintage do write a bit better then the modern flex i have tried but I also think due to their age, the style of feed and the skills manufacturing them back then that's to be expected. But that's just my opinion because well what I "like" in a pen may be vastly different to you and you may think they are 100 times better then modern.

 

Modern nibs are not manufactured like they used to be once fountain pens went out of favor. The nibs, as I understand it, were each individually tuned by hand and the skills used to make vintage flex pens has been kind of lost, or at the very least is too expensive for the current market to recreate in nibs that you buy straight out of the box. They do seem to be making a resurgence in popularity and there are some modern flex pens but they won't achieve the ease of flex as vintage without some modifications.

[NicolausPiscator]

Jup, preferences in pens, nibs, inks etc. are very different, but the term "flexible" should, indeed be used accurately and differentiated.

[Honeybadgers]

If you have the money, a modern 14k nib can be customized to flex as much as anything vintage. My 14k JoWo ground by Pablo at FPnibs is like waving around a ribbon, it's softer than any of my super flex wet noodle watermans.

 

No, there are no modern wet noodles. But a noodlers steel nib is what we could consider a firm semiflex because while it is tiring, it will give you a BB. Most of the "soft" gold nibs (apart from the pilot FA which is kind of a soft semiflex) are just that, soft, not flexible. They bounce and will add some line variation, but won't really spread. I have an XXF-BBB nib that was "made" this year and is every bit as soft as a brause rose.

 

But the super flexible nibs are also harder to use. I can't just scribble down notes with my wet noodle TWSBI. It's for DRAWING letters, not writing them. A noodlers nib will scribble down all day and add flourishes when you want, so they really are a good, cost-effective middle ground.

 

Pick up a japanese SF nib if you want to feel about the level of spring that a semiflex nib can produce (with a lot less variation though) the platinum 3776 and pilot custom 74/91 both make Soft Fine nibs that are spectacular writers, but while they do spread to about a B, they're definitely not flex nibs, just soft gold nibs.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Honeybadgers