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Inky T O D - Making Inks Drier - Dryer - Drying Additives?

dry ink ink additive

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23 replies to this topic

#1 BrassRatt

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 06:51

There are recent topics on additives to make ink "wetter", more flowing, such as detergent or PhotoFlo (or maybe other things). 

 

Are there additives that give the opposite effect?  --that make ink "dryer", slow the flow, retard absorption into paper, make a nib write a narrower line? 

 

Thank you for describing them if so, or for clearly stating that no such thing is known to Ink Fandom if not.

 

 



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#2 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:21

Hello BrassRat, et al,

Add a little distilled water... keep adding a little until you're satisfied.

Water has a very high surface tension; which is why ink company's add surfactant(s) to ink in the first place. ;)

Not only will the water add to the surface tension; it will also dilute the over abundant surfactant(s).


- Anthony

P.S.: DO NOT ADD OVER 10% water because then you can dilute the mold inhibitors past their useful capacity.


EDITED to add text.

Edited by ParkerDuofold, 23 December 2017 - 07:29.

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#3 Chrissy

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:29

Yes, it works well in very saturated inks.  :thumbup:​ 



#4 minddance

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:05

This topic always ends with distilled water.

Seems like the ingredient(s) shall remain a secret.

Water dilutes. But if water is the ONLY additive known to anyone here, I feel very discouraged.

#5 Chrissy

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:15

This topic always ends with distilled water.

Seems like the ingredient(s) shall remain a secret.

Water dilutes. But if water is the ONLY additive known to anyone here, I feel very discouraged.

 

Inks are usually designed with ingredients that make them wetter rather than dryer, so water is one thing we can come up with to make them dryer.  :)



#6 Inkling13

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 14:26

 

Inks are usually designed with ingredients that make them wetter rather than dryer, so water is one thing we can come up with to make them dryer.  :)

Very much so. Ink is 99.9+% water, with minimal dyes and other proprietary additives added. If you really want to see dry, just run some water through pen, with maybe some slight bit of ink so you can see the line, and see how that feels. That would give you a clear idea how dry your pen runs inherently. Then you'd know if you need to either switch inks or find a nibmeister to try and tame the flow. 



#7 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 14:36

This topic always ends with distilled water.

Seems like the ingredient(s) shall remain a secret.

Water dilutes. But if water is the ONLY additive known to anyone here, I feel very discouraged.


Hello Minddance,

Ironically, it is water that makes inks dry. (Ink is around 95% water). The reason some inks are "dryer" than others is simply because they have less surfactant(s) in them... for one reason or another.

Sometimes it's the manufacturer's choice; other times it's more specic, such as a certain dye group can only handle a certain level of surfactant before it begins to break down, so less must be used, etc., etc.

Ink companies do not add chemicals to make their inks dryer... the high water content combined with water's high surface tension takes care of that.

This is why the answer given is always water... because the answer always is water. ;)


- Anthony
With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D

#8 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 14:48

...Ink is 99.9+% water...


Hi Inkling13,

Actually, I think the average is even higher than that. :rolleyes:


- Anthony ;)
With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D

#9 minddance

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 15:09

Hello Minddance,

Ironically, it is water that makes inks dry. (Ink is around 95% water). The reason some inks are "dryer" than others is simply because they have less surfactant(s) in them... for one reason or another.

Sometimes it's the manufacturer's choice; other times it's more specic, such as a certain dye group can only handle a certain level of surfactant before it begins to break down, so less must be used, etc., etc.

Ink companies do not add chemicals to make their inks dryer... the high water content combined with water's high surface tension takes care of that.

This is why the answer given is always water... because the answer always is water. ;)


- Anthony


Dear ParkerDuofold,

Many thanks for addressing my concern. I am aware water does exactly what you expressed. I see no irony in that due to the higher surface tension of water and I have experienced the effect of adding water, my experience mirrors many others' and do not doubt its ability.

My concern is if there's anything - at all - besides water that can negate the effects of surfactants such as Kodak Photoflo and slow down ink flow, or make inks thicker without interfering with its colour or saturation (not merely perceived due to slower flow).

I am very eager to accept that there's surely something else other than water ;)

#10 amberleadavis

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 02:51

When Adam Voss did a series of tests, I had suggested glycerin to make the ink wetter.  In practice, he found that small amounts of glycerin (which is a surfactant and should make the ink wetter) actually made the ink drier.


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#11 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 04:51

...I am very eager to accept that there's surely something else other than water ;)


Dear Minddance,

I wish I could help you out, but I know of nothing other than water or sand. ;)

- Anthony


P.S.: Ah, it seems Amberlea has an interesting suggestion....



When Adam Voss did a series of tests, I had suggested glycerin to make the ink wetter.  In practice, he found that small amounts of glycerin (which is a surfactant and should make the ink wetter) actually made the ink drier.


Hi Amberlea,

This is interesting... I tried adding glycerin to make inks feel more lubricated.

The ink did feel a little silkier at first, but the flow was dryer. So it was sort of a stalemate. :mellow:


- Anthony
With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D

#12 Tweel

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 05:39

glycerin (which is a surfactant...)

 

Are you sure it's a surfactant?  I knew that it's a humectant...


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#13 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 05:58

Are you sure it's a surfactant?  I knew that it's a humectant...


You're correct, Tweel. Glycerin is a humectant; whereas surfactants have a detergent composition.


- Anthony
With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D

#14 BrassRatt

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 23:22

Glycerin -- or any liquid that does not evaporate substantially at room temperature -- would be expected to slow or indeed prevent ink from drying on paper, I'd think.  A humectant would be expected to magnify this effect by retaining atmospheric water in the ink line.  Does experience bear this out? 



#15 BrassRatt

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 23:27

This is interesting... I tried adding glycerin to make inks feel more lubricated.

The ink did feel a little silkier at first, but the flow was dryer. So it was sort of a stalemate. :mellow:

- Anthony

 

Sounds like a complete win to me -- dryer flow is what I'm asking about, and silkier feel would be a bonus.  

How much glycerin did you add in your experiments (what proportion to original ink)? 

 

So what's the catch?  What's the downside? 

 



#16 amberleadavis

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 21:31

See, you all are more knowledgeable about those chemistry things.  I'm going to add this to the Topic O' Day list.  

 

I don't know that there is a downside other than slow dry time.


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#17 amberleadavis

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 22:09

And if you are interested, the topic has been listed here:  http://www.fountainp...-d-topics-oday/


Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

 

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#18 dcwaites

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 23:07

I don't know about the chemistry of it, but I have always thought of glycerine as a thickener, to slow down the passage of ink through a pen, and detergent as the opposite, to help the ink flow better through the pen.

You would need a balance of the two, depending on how much dye is in the ink, and the particular feed in your pen (some of the new chinese feeds seem to be quite hard to wet).


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#19 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:39

This is interesting... I tried adding glycerin to make inks feel more lubricated.
The ink did feel a little silkier at first, but the flow was dryer. So it was sort of a stalemate. :mellow:

- Anthony

 
Sounds like a complete win to me -- dryer flow is what I'm asking about, and silkier feel would be a bonus.  
How much glycerin did you add in your experiments (what proportion to original ink)? 
 
So what's the catch?  What's the downside? 
 


Hello BrassRat, et al,

I started by adding 1 drop of glycerin per 1 oz. of ink... shook the bottle... dip tested it, using a fountain pen and kept adding one drop and shaking until I got the feeling I was looking for, (2 drops in a bottle J. Herbin brown... it's slipping my mind right now, which one).


The catch... or down side is that if you favor wide medium and broad nibs, (like yours truly); or if you're using stubs, italics and especially Flex nibs, (which all require heavier flow rates), the diminished flow can be problematic.


If anyone is interested; here's where I got mine:

https://www.naturalp...m/glycerin.html


PLEASE NOTE: I bought mine from the same place a while ago, but received a different brand than what is pictured here; if that will make any difference, I cannot say.


- Anthony
With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D

#20 ParkerDuofold

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:49

I don't know about the chemistry of it, but I have always thought of glycerine as a thickener, to slow down the passage of ink through a pen, and detergent as the opposite, to help the ink flow better through the pen.
You would need a balance of the two, depending on how much dye is in the ink, and the particular feed in your pen (some of the new chinese feeds seem to be quite hard to wet).


Yes. :thumbup:

However, while glycerin does add viscosity to the ink; it does also aid in lubrication.

That's the great thing about also having Kodak FotoFlo 200... if needs be... the secret is finding the right balance between the two.

- A.C.


EDITED to correct typo and add text.

Edited by ParkerDuofold, 29 December 2017 - 05:59.

With thanks to my Mom & Dad; who taught me to run free, but not run wild.

Please pray the Rosary daily. Thank You, St. Jude, for favors granted. :)

Grab life with both arms and give it a bear hug every day! :D





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