Jump to content

The Fountain Pen Network uses (functional) cookies. Read the FPN Privacy Policy for more info.  To remove this message, please click here to accept the use of cookies


Registration on the Fountain Pen Network

Dearest Visitor of the little Fountain Pen Nut house on the digital prairie,

Due to the enormous influx of spammers, it is no longer possible to handle valditions in the traditional way. For registrations we therefore kindly and respectfully request you to send an email with your request to our especially created email address. This email address is register at fountainpennetwork dot com. Please include your desired user name, and after validation we will send you a return email containing the validation key, normally wiithin a week.

Thank you very much in advance!
The FPN Admin Team






Photo

Sailor Nibs: Large 1911 Size Vs Kop (Or Naginata-Togi)

sailor 1911 kop

  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:57

Hi guys. 

 

 

I've been enjoying this hobby for just more than a year. Since I've really got into this hobby, I planned that I'm gonna try all the high-end production line pens of major brands. Up to now, I've tried Montblanc 146, Aurora 88, a lot of Viscontis, Pilot 823, Pelikan M800, etc. 

 

I prefer broader nibs, so I didn't care for the Japanese pens. But Pilot 823 which is my most recent purchase completely changed my mind: It was too good to skip. So I'm now eager to try Japanese pens with broad nib as much as I can. 

 

My next try will be Sailor. Because I love soft gold nibs, 1911 large and KOP (any of them) are on my list. But you know, KOP is too expensive to just try. So I want you to kindly share your experiences on the Sailor nibs; 1911 Large size and K.O.P. size. 

 

 

I've heard some folks that KOP nib is very soft, bouncy, and smooth, but the other Sailors are not. Is that true? 

 

And how about the Naginata-Togi nibs? In some Youtube videos, I see that the Naginata Medium is quite broader than normal western medium at normal writing angle (~45 degree). Can I get a similar experience with smooth wet western broad nib experience by using Sailor's Naginata-Togi broad nibs? 

 



Sponsored Content

#2 KellyMcJ

KellyMcJ

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,432 posts
  • Location:Eastern Pennsylvania
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 05:20

I have a Sapporo B which would give the same or very similar writing experience to a 1911 B.

Sailor nibs (their standard line) are not soft. They are nails. Not "this pen can also be used for rock climbing" hard but pretty close.

Their B nibs write about like a western M nib and have a distinct "foot" which gives a unique writing experience. You love it or hate it (I love it). They're not really designed for western writing but they work well for some people.

If you want western broad+ get a Zoom nib. It's very broad and also has a distinct "foot" and sweet spot like the B.

#3 Driften

Driften

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,988 posts
  • Location:Issaquah, WA
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 18:21

I have a 1911L in H-B (H stands for Hard) and a 1911 Realo in Zoom. I agree a B in a Sailor is not really Broad. The Zoom nib is a western B. One really cool thing about the zoom nib is they actually polished the back side for reverse writing. On the B you can for a very short time but the Zoom works just as nice as the proper side. The Naginata-Togi is more of a Zoom design and comes in different widths and are expensive and hard to get.

 

If you want a soft nib look at some other brand then Sailor.



#4 Mew

Mew

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  • Location:Kyoto/Tokyo, Japan

Posted 04 December 2017 - 18:34

If you want really broad, then try one of the speciality nibs: Nagahara King Cobra Emperor nib. Comes in only KOP but that is the broadest nib I know.
No, none of these nibs would be soft unless specifically said so. I have seen soft medium nibs from sailor but they are just soft, not intended for line variation.

#5 Driften

Driften

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,988 posts
  • Location:Issaquah, WA
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 19:40

Hi guys. 

 

 

I've been enjoying this hobby for just more than a year. Since I've really got into this hobby, I planned that I'm gonna try all the high-end production line pens of major brands. Up to now, I've tried Montblanc 146, Aurora 88, a lot of Viscontis, Pilot 823, Pelikan M800, etc. 

 

 

 

Just so you know, My Montblanc 146 and Pelikan M805 are nicer and better built pens then my Sailor 1911 Large or Realo. I have never handled a KOP so don't know about that one. The Large/Realo are just about the same size as a 146. The KOP is more 149 sized. To tell the truth if you liked the 146 and M800 I would suggest going to a MB 149 or M1000 next.  The metal piston housing on those two pens makes it feel better to me. If you really did not care for the balance of the 149 and M800 then maybe you would like the KOP better. The other thing to note is the converter on the Sailor pens does not hold a lot of ink. The Realo models use a piston but don't hold any where as much ink as other piston pens. There was one special edition Realo KOP that held more, but I understand the current Realo KOP's don't.

 

Oh the Pelikan M1000 has a softer nib then the M800's. Cult Pens has great prices on Pelikans.

 

Maybe you can find a pen shop and try a KOP...



#6 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 19:51

I have a Sapporo B which would give the same or very similar writing experience to a 1911 B.

Sailor nibs (their standard line) are not soft. They are nails. Not "this pen can also be used for rock climbing" hard but pretty close.

Their B nibs write about like a western M nib and have a distinct "foot" which gives a unique writing experience. You love it or hate it (I love it). They're not really designed for western writing but they work well for some people.

If you want western broad+ get a Zoom nib. It's very broad and also has a distinct "foot" and sweet spot like the B.

 

 

I have a 1911L in H-B (H stands for Hard) and a 1911 Realo in Zoom. I agree a B in a Sailor is not really Broad. The Zoom nib is a western B. One really cool thing about the zoom nib is they actually polished the back side for reverse writing. On the B you can for a very short time but the Zoom works just as nice as the proper side. The Naginata-Togi is more of a Zoom design and comes in different widths and are expensive and hard to get.

 

If you want a soft nib look at some other brand then Sailor.

 

 

Thanks a lot. I was aware of the Zoom nib, but somehow I didn't consider it at all. I will take a look at that. 



#7 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:01

If you want really broad, then try one of the speciality nibs: Nagahara King Cobra Emperor nib. Comes in only KOP but that is the broadest nib I know.
No, none of these nibs would be soft unless specifically said so. I have seen soft medium nibs from sailor but they are just soft, not intended for line variation.

 

I want my everyday writer to be anywhere between western medium and double broad with some softness According to SBRE Brown's video, the King Cobra looks like too broad for me. Actually I want to try that because it look so COOOOL, but it's extremely hard to get as pre-owned and BNIB is too expensive for me. 

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.



#8 gerigo

gerigo

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,027 posts
  • Location:New York
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:29

Sailor nibs are ground in a different way than any other pen manufacturer I know or have tried, and I have most all pens from all the main manufacturers like Platinum, Pilot, Aurora, MB, Visconti, Pelikan, St Dupont, GVFC et el. Their width determination are more narrow than any other pen manufacturers I know. The mediums are quite fine, and their broads finer than a typical Pelikan medium.The other reason why Sailor nibs are so fine is because their nibs are not super wet. That's why Sailor inks are much more lubricated than inks from other European companies.

 

I have the KOP in medium, broad as well as the Naginata Broad. I also have their fines, medium fines, broads, zoom and music in their 1911 large range. In general, their nibs are stiff but have bounce, and is uniquely tuned for Eastern writing because there is enough bounce to create the little bit of flair at the end of the stroke. But not enough for the sustained widening of the tines for Western calligraphy. The reason why the KOPs "feel" they are much softer is because the nib is quite big and the tines are super long. HOWEVER, compared to the similar sized Pilot Custom Urushi it feels like a nail when the Custom Urushi feels like it will just splay it's tines every time you write with it. SO if you want soft nibs but on a pen from Japan, Platinum and Pilot are your brands. They have soft nibs in their nib catalog, and Pilot even has an FA nib that is very notorious in our circles. Other pens in the Pilot range you want to try are the Elabo and the Justus, both also known for their soft nibs.

 

The reason why the KOP works so well for me is because of the feel in the hand. The weight is just perfect, as it the feel of the ebonite body and the feedback from the nib. It's just an very hard feeling to capture in words or even video. Since taking on Chinese writing, I have found it perfect for the task.

 

If you want a wet gusher super broad nib from Sailor, the ones I would recommend are the zoom, music and the Naginata broad. The zoom basically writes like a Western broad, the music writes like a stub. Right now, the Naginata is basically not available for a while so no point even talking about it.

 

But my recommendation is that if you want a "SOFT" nib, stay away from Sailor.


Edited by gerigo, 04 December 2017 - 20:32.


#9 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:29

 

 

Just so you know, My Montblanc 146 and Pelikan M805 are nicer and better built pens then my Sailor 1911 Large or Realo. I have never handled a KOP so don't know about that one. The Large/Realo are just about the same size as a 146. The KOP is more 149 sized. To tell the truth if you liked the 146 and M800 I would suggest going to a MB 149 or M1000 next.  The metal piston housing on those two pens makes it feel better to me. If you really did not care for the balance of the 149 and M800 then maybe you would like the KOP better. The other thing to note is the converter on the Sailor pens does not hold a lot of ink. The Realo models use a piston but don't hold any where as much ink as other piston pens. There was one special edition Realo KOP that held more, but I understand the current Realo KOP's don't.

 

Oh the Pelikan M1000 has a softer nib then the M800's. Cult Pens has great prices on Pelikans.

 

Maybe you can find a pen shop and try a KOP...

 

I love balance of MB 146, but it was a bit small for my taste and the construction quality was not great as much as their reputation. So I got pre-owned and sold. For Pelikan M800, I'm just getting used to it. BUt I feel it is a bit uncomfortable than MB 146. I don't know the exact specifications of those, but MB 146 feels more well-balanced than Pelikan M800 for me, at least up to now. I tried MB 149 at MB boutique, and the balance was just superb for me, like 146. Because the boutique didn't ink MB 149, I couldn't try its nib. I think it would be almost perfect pen for me if 149 has some more bouncy nib than 146, and has better construction quality than my previously owned 146. For Pelikan M1000, by the way, I'm considering it as my next option. Their nib design is not for me, but a superb writing experience can overwhelm all the aesthetics in my case. I'm just not trying to have it right now because my last purchase was M800, which is also Pelikan. 

 

I'm expecting the Sailor KOP, especially the black ebonite model, to be a light, oversized, wet,  and smooth writer with minimalistic design perspectives. I know the Sailor converter is not for everyone, but I don't care the ink capacity because I'm now at the stage of experiencing, so I continuously change inks in my pens. And indeed, I love to clean my pens. It makes me feel calm and peaceful. 

 

For trying KOP, Korean FP market is much narrower than that of the US, and it's impossible to find any local pen shop except for in Seoul. I can visit them at most only a few times a year. Furthermore, the high-end market is so overwhelmed by MB, so it's hard to find a retailer who carries KOP except for just a few Maki-e models with finest nib size, and they never allow to try those. So I'd love to try that, but I can't. 



#10 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:46

Sailor nibs are ground in a different way than any other pen manufacturer I know or have tried, and I have most all pens from all the main manufacturers like Platinum, Pilot, Aurora, MB, Visconti, Pelikan, St Dupont, GVFC et el. Their width determination are more narrow than any other pen manufacturers I know. The mediums are quite fine, and their broads finer than a typical Pelikan medium.The other reason why Sailor nibs are so fine is because their nibs are not super wet. That's why Sailor inks are much more lubricated than inks from other European companies.

 

I have the KOP in medium, broad as well as the Naginata Broad. I also have their fines, medium fines, broads, zoom and music in their 1911 large range. In general, their nibs are stiff but have bounce, and is uniquely tuned for Eastern writing because there is enough bounce to create the little bit of flair at the end of the stroke. But not enough for the sustained widening of the tines for Western calligraphy. The reason why the KOPs "feel" they are much softer is because the nib is quite big and the tines are super long. HOWEVER, compared to the similar sized Pilot Custom Urushi it feels like a nail when the Custom Urushi feels like it will just splay it's tines every time you write with it. SO if you want soft nibs but on a pen from Japan, Platinum and Pilot are your brands. They have soft nibs in their nib catalog, and Pilot even has an FA nib that is very notorious in our circles. Other pens in the Pilot range you want to try are the Elabo and the Justus, both also known for their soft nibs.

 

The reason why the KOP works so well for me is because of the feel in the hand. The weight is just perfect, as it the feel of the ebonite body and the feedback from the nib. It's just an very hard feeling to capture in words or even video. Since taking on Chinese writing, I have found it perfect for the task.

 

If you want a wet gusher super broad nib from Sailor, the ones I would recommend are the zoom, music and the Naginata broad. The zoom basically writes like a Western broad, the music writes like a stub. Right now, the Naginata is basically not available for a while so no point even talking about it.

 

But my recommendation is that if you want a "SOFT" nib, stay away from Sailor.

 

Thank you for your comments. The way you described KOP ebonite is actually close to what I'm expecting to it. In terms of the softness, I think I'm using the word in a different way from most of you guys. I meant some bounciness. I never use modern normal nibs including very soft Visconti's 23kt Pd to make any line variation. I just don't like the "nail-like" feeling of some pens like Pilot Metropolitan.

 

For the Naginata nib, I'm quite surprised to hear they are not available for a while because I could find a lot of items listed on Ebay from Japanese sellers. Is there any issue on the specialty nib? 



#11 Driften

Driften

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,988 posts
  • Location:Issaquah, WA
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:47

 

I love balance of MB 146, but it was a bit small for my taste and the construction quality was not great as much as their reputation. So I got pre-owned and sold. For Pelikan M800, I'm just getting used to it. BUt I feel it is a bit uncomfortable than MB 146. I don't know the exact specifications of those, but MB 146 feels more well-balanced than Pelikan M800 for me, at least up to now. I tried MB 149 at MB boutique, and the balance was just superb for me, like 146. Because the boutique didn't ink MB 149, I couldn't try its nib. I think it would be almost perfect pen for me if 149 has some more bouncy nib than 146, and has better construction quality than my previously owned 146. For Pelikan M1000, by the way, I'm considering it as my next option. Their nib design is not for me, but a superb writing experience can overwhelm all the aesthetics in my case. I'm just not trying to have it right now because my last purchase was M800, which is also Pelikan. 

 

I'm expecting the Sailor KOP, especially the black ebonite model, to be a light, oversized, wet,  and smooth writer with minimalistic design perspectives. I know the Sailor converter is not for everyone, but I don't care the ink capacity because I'm now at the stage of experiencing, so I continuously change inks in my pens. And indeed, I love to clean my pens. It makes me feel calm and peaceful. 

 

For trying KOP, Korean FP market is much narrower than that of the US, and it's impossible to find any local pen shop except for in Seoul. I can visit them at most only a few times a year. Furthermore, the high-end market is so overwhelmed by MB, so it's hard to find a retailer who carries KOP except for just a few Maki-e models with finest nib size, and they never allow to try those. So I'd love to try that, but I can't. 

 

 

I have two 146's and love the balance of them. I also have a Pelikan M805 which I like almost as much. Yes the M80x have a hard nib, but I don't mind that. The M1000 has a softer nib. Cult Pens in England has the best price on them I don't know what your exchange rate is but is about $420 US shipped. That puts its just higher then a used MB 149. 

 

The Sailor 1911 Large and 1911 Realo I have don't balance anything like a 146. They don't have the weight from the brass piston block. They are also lighter and the plastic fitting to the metal parts is not as good as MB or Pelikan. At least in the three Sailors I have. Sailor does make nice nibs and the Zoom has an interesting feel with a nice broad line.  Maybe try a 1911L with Zoom and go from there? You will get a feel for them and then sell it if you don't like it. You will not be out as much as a KOP. But again it's really a 146 size so you might not like it for that reason.

 

Where I am in the US there are no pen shops even the Montblanc one closed. So I know what it's like to not being able to try before you buy. 



#12 gerigo

gerigo

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,027 posts
  • Location:New York
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 20:48

Hey iruciperi, the Custom Urushi will fit you well! Super soft wet nib in a GIANT pen body that is beautifully constructed. It's so large it barely fits in any of my carrying cases. It also has the nice urushi con70 converter that has a large capacity. Although it feels great in the hand, I find it just on the side of being a little too large.

 

 

I love balance of MB 146, but it was a bit small for my taste and the construction quality was not great as much as their reputation. So I got pre-owned and sold. For Pelikan M800, I'm just getting used to it. BUt I feel it is a bit uncomfortable than MB 146. I don't know the exact specifications of those, but MB 146 feels more well-balanced than Pelikan M800 for me, at least up to now. I tried MB 149 at MB boutique, and the balance was just superb for me, like 146. Because the boutique didn't ink MB 149, I couldn't try its nib. I think it would be almost perfect pen for me if 149 has some more bouncy nib than 146, and has better construction quality than my previously owned 146. For Pelikan M1000, by the way, I'm considering it as my next option. Their nib design is not for me, but a superb writing experience can overwhelm all the aesthetics in my case. I'm just not trying to have it right now because my last purchase was M800, which is also Pelikan. 

 

I'm expecting the Sailor KOP, especially the black ebonite model, to be a light, oversized, wet,  and smooth writer with minimalistic design perspectives. I know the Sailor converter is not for everyone, but I don't care the ink capacity because I'm now at the stage of experiencing, so I continuously change inks in my pens. And indeed, I love to clean my pens. It makes me feel calm and peaceful. 

 

For trying KOP, Korean FP market is much narrower than that of the US, and it's impossible to find any local pen shop except for in Seoul. I can visit them at most only a few times a year. Furthermore, the high-end market is so overwhelmed by MB, so it's hard to find a retailer who carries KOP except for just a few Maki-e models with finest nib size, and they never allow to try those. So I'd love to try that, but I can't. 



#13 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 21:02

Hey iruciperi, the Custom Urushi will fit you well! Super soft wet nib in a GIANT pen body that is beautifully constructed. It's so large it barely fits in any of my carrying cases. It also has the nice urushi con70 converter that has a large capacity. Although it feels great in the hand, I find it just on the side of being a little too large.

 

 

 

Thank you. I will take a look at it. Among Pilots, Namiki Emperor is on my "Dream-Pen" list. Custom Urushi looks nice to try also!



#14 gerigo

gerigo

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,027 posts
  • Location:New York
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 21:05

The Namiki Emperor is almost impossible for me to use for long periods. Of course despite me saying this, I have 2 of them! I find my favorite Pilots are the Yukari Royale, the Custom Urushi, the 845 and the Justus.

 

 

 

Thank you. I will take a look at it. Among Pilots, Namiki Emperor is on my "Dream-Pen" list. Custom Urushi looks nice to try also!



#15 Mew

Mew

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  • Location:Kyoto/Tokyo, Japan

Posted 04 December 2017 - 21:15

I have 3 emperor's, one in each nib width. Gorgeous writers and the best pens I own.

#16 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 21:42

The Namiki Emperor is almost impossible for me to use for long periods. Of course despite me saying this, I have 2 of them! I find my favorite Pilots are the Yukari Royale, the Custom Urushi, the 845 and the Justus.

 

 

 

In terms of 845, can you describe your writing experience with it, especially compared with Custom Urushi and Custom 823? I see Custom Urushi has larger nib than 845, and 823 has the same size, but 823 is made of 14k while 845 is made of 19k. Custom Urushi is not affordable for me now, so I'm considering 845 as an alternative. I have 823 with medium so I know how it writes. Does 845's 18k #15 nib give more bouncy and more western-like (wet, smooth, and bouncy I mean) experience compared with 823's 14k #15 size nib?



#17 gerigo

gerigo

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,027 posts
  • Location:New York
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 22:34

I love the 845 because it has a slimmer body but it still long, probably the best handling of the Pilot pens. Of all the pens I have mentioned, the 3 I find fit the best in my hands are the ebonite KOP, with the thicker body, the 845 and the Yukari Royale. I don't have the regular 823 so I don't know what the normal 14k nib feels like. My 823 has the FA nib in it.

 

As for the 845, I find the nib to be way softer and much wetter than the Sailor of the same width. It has a very pleasant bounce to it as well making the writing experience to be quite special. I have the Ichii wood version of the 845, and would assume the writing characteristic is the same if not very similar.



#18 iruciperi

iruciperi

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 23:09

I love the 845 because it has a slimmer body but it still long, probably the best handling of the Pilot pens. Of all the pens I have mentioned, the 3 I find fit the best in my hands are the ebonite KOP, with the thicker body, the 845 and the Yukari Royale. I don't have the regular 823 so I don't know what the normal 14k nib feels like. My 823 has the FA nib in it.

 

As for the 845, I find the nib to be way softer and much wetter than the Sailor of the same width. It has a very pleasant bounce to it as well making the writing experience to be quite special. I have the Ichii wood version of the 845, and would assume the writing characteristic is the same if not very similar.

 

 

Thanks a lot. I will order 845. And I will post a comparison review between regular 823 and 845 if possible.



#19 KellyMcJ

KellyMcJ

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,432 posts
  • Location:Eastern Pennsylvania
  • Flag:

Posted 04 December 2017 - 23:44

I just don't like the "nail-like" feeling of some pens like Pilot Metropolitan.


Then you won't like Sailor's standard offerings, in my opinion, as they are at least as hard as the metropolitan.

#20 TheRealMikeDr

TheRealMikeDr

    The Great Schnauzer King

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,108 posts
  • Location:Northeast Ohio - US

Posted 05 December 2017 - 12:16

I've got an Ebonite KOP, M1000 and 149 and I prefer the KOP the most, followed closely by the 149 then the M1000. The KOP is in medium which writes like a western fine which is prefect for me. The nib has no flex but is does have a touch of spring/bounce to it as noted above. I find the balance of the KOP and the feel of the ebonite body nearly perfect for me.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: sailor, 1911, kop



Sponsored Content




|