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Tiny Nibs - M200 Ef Vs P200Ef

extrafine nibs pelikan sizes

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#1 BillH

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 18:35

Before I ordered my M200 Brown Marble, I looked in my inventory program and realized I only had one small Pelikan Extra Fine nib.  It is in a P200 though.  I LOVE that little pen and it is always inked.  I use it every week.  The only finer nib I own is in a Platinum Desk Pen.

 

So I ordered the Brown with an EF.  Lovely writer, smooth, not scratchy, crisp line.  But... I didn't think it was as fine a line as the little cartridge pen.  Got the loupe out to see.  Indeed.  There is EF and then there is EF.  I expected some nib difference between a piston pen and a cartridge pen, and perhaps two years is a long time in a nib factory?

 

So here you go, a couple pics to show the difference.  Not exactly "blobby", but the M200 on the left is a different point.  I like it a lot.  But for Extra Fine bragging rights, the little P200 is still my finest "out of the box" Pelikan.

 

fpn_1512238740__m200-p200_ef_compares_to

 

fpn_1512238765__m200-p200_ef_compares_un


Edited by BillH, 02 December 2017 - 18:37.

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#2 Biber

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 19:28

Is there really any reason why these should be different nibs?  


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#3 Matlock

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 19:28

Interesting as my P200 F is much finer than my M200 F. Both great nibs but any similarity is just coincidence. I have a feeling that Pelikan look at a nib after it has been formed and say "that's not a B so we will mark it as something else, doesn't matter what". OK I am being cynical but there does seem to be a lack of control when it comes to sizing. I am not particularly concerned as I use a Parker 75 with a needle point nib if I want an EF, it makes a Sailor EF look like a BB. 


Edited by Matlock, 02 December 2017 - 19:28.

Peter


#4 chravagni

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 20:29

I have several m2×× pens and four of them have an EF nib (one m215, three m205).

All the four nibs are different among themselves: two are very smooth and almost F size, one having kind of a ball on the top, the other not. One is very thin and hard, rigid, like a nail, the last one is springy, flexible and super-thin, similar to the old pelikan steno (which I have, so I could make the comparison).
All the pens are new, bought from German sellers after 2012, so no vintage.

So, in my experience you are right, the nib sizing for EF is a bit out of control.
I still use mostly EF and they are among my favourite pens, but ordering one you never know what to expect.
Chiara

Edited by chravagni, 02 December 2017 - 20:29.


#5 BillH

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 20:40

Is there really any reason why these should be different nibs?  

 

 

The P200 is a cartridge pen made in 2015 and this M200 is on a brand new Brown Marbled.  Perhaps one of the nib  or repair folk would care to chime in, but my uneducated guess thinks the feed for the cart pen might need to be different.  I've never paid much attention to the P200 nib before this.  If I wasn't so darn lazy I'd walk to the backroom and get out the 200's again and look... but we just got back from a dog drag (he dragged us) and I'd rather take a nap  :P


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#6 Biber

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 21:29

 

 

The P200 is a cartridge pen made in 2015 and this M200 is on a brand new Brown Marbled.  Perhaps one of the nib  or repair folk would care to chime in, but my uneducated guess thinks the feed for the cart pen might need to be different.  I've never paid much attention to the P200 nib before this.  If I wasn't so darn lazy I'd walk to the backroom and get out the 200's again and look... but we just got back from a dog drag (he dragged us) and I'd rather take a nap  :P

 

I wouldn't be so sure that the feed is necessarily different and the issue here. They're both 200 model pens and ostensibly the same nib units with the same size feed as far as the nib is concerrned - yes different feed as far as the filling mechanism is concerned - esp. on the butt end? (Or are they? I don't know).

 

But back up a few steps in the nib making process. A nib is stamped and tipping is put on. At some point it ends up a hopper full of similar EF marked nibs does it not?  Why would/should there be any appreciable variation among the many nibs pooled together prior to being assembled into nib units? I really would have a hard time believing that the actual nibs for the two pens came from different production lines with different specs. It's just bad and inconsistent quality control. Perhaps another topic but is such quality control really that much better for the supposed higher end model pens?   


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#7 DougS

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 22:24

When you weld a very, very tiny ball if iridium onto a piece of stainless steel there is bound to be some variance piece to piece. Probably more of a chance than when welding a larger ball for a medium point.

 

I know I wouldn't be very consistent.  :unsure:



#8 Calabria

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 22:30

First of all, that puts the myth to rest that Pelikan steel nibs somehow are better than the gold ones.

Secondly, I've noticed this variation as well. An EF I ordered from Japan has a needle fine point that is completely out of line with my other steel EFs. The difference is stunning.

I would like to know how Pelikan's manufacturing results in such uneven products (I assume somebody in Peine is reading this.) In the meantime, I'm waiting for a white M605 in
F and am curious what kind of writing experience it will have ...
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#9 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 22:50

All nibs are going to be different widths...slightly, within slop/tolerance, so you could have a skinny EF, a medium EF and a fat EF come off the line one after another.

 

Ron Zorn visited the Sheaffer factory just as it was closing. I'm not going to dig in my past posts on this unless someone wants to see it.

A Fat F can exactly = a Skinny M.....and that goes for all ranges and a hair more into tolerance can't be seen by the bare eye.

That is normal.

If and when asking for a new nib with in the 5 or so weeks, then one can ask for skinny, middle or fat side of tolerance.

 

I did spend 15 minutes reading old posts.....oh well.

xxxxx

 

From Ron Zorn who visited the Sheaffer factory as it was closing down.

 

Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050

 

A skinny M can = a fat F, or a fat M can = a skinny B and so on...then you really can't tell if skinny M is 1/1000th of an inch (or mm ) within tolerance..................then the very next company has a different standard of the width of it's nib range.....There a Skinny M could be with in the F range of another company....like a Parker vs Sheaffer.....Sheaffer once had the thinner nib....don't know about today. There was an overlap of nib widths if compared to other companies."""

 

Decided to leave the whole smear. Looks like you got a skinny and a fat EF............too bad you don't have semi-vintage or vintage. My chart shows Pelikan's EF as skinnier than Parker, Sheaffer and Waterman..............back when that chart was....Japanese pens hadn't come into the market as strong as they now are.

 

!@#$%^& &*** I got to go dig out my Geha EF....to see if it's skinnier than my new 200 EF.

No I don't.....yes I do.........I'm good at that. Good at dithering. :) :P


www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#10 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 01:18

About two years ago I bought a M200 Cognac through Amazon from a Japanese seller. A Fine. I had had Pelikan Fines previously, but this is on a whole different level. Like Bo Bo says, on the skinny side. Unless, and this did occur to me, that Pelikan pens created for the Japanese market are narrower to better compete with Platinum, Pilot and Sailor... Not sure what is reality though.

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#11 BillH

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:38

I hadn't thought of that... tomorrow I'll see if I can dredge up the invoice for the P200 and see if it came from Japan.  Would make sense though.


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#12 chromantic

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:47

I use only F or EF on my M-series and have experienced (and commented on) this slight variation in line width myself. As long as it's not veering off into M/B territory, I can live with it.

 

Curiously, as someone who feels the gold nibs write slightly fatter than the steels, my finest writer is the gold F on my M250 Levenger, which writes like a Japanese EF. It's scratchy so I know the tines a misaligned but I think they're also pinched together, restricting the ink flow somewhat.


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#13 pajaro

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 03:10

Then there are the M300 EFs.  I have two, and one is very slightly wider than the other.  All four of my M200 EFs write a thinner line.  One M400 EF is exquisitely thin. 


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#14 Biber

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 13:44

Hmm, that's very interesting - to suggest that Pelikan does indeed market finer nibs to the Japanese market. Very plausible in my opinion. Now if there could be confirmation from Peikan that such is indeed the case, and where can I get one? That would could come very close to solving all my issues with Pelikan nibs.  You've gotten my hopes up! 


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#15 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 23:39

Biber did you start with Japanese pens?

 

If so, your Mark 2 Eyeball is so calibrated and all western pens will seem wide marked to you.

Aurora is the thinnest European nib, close to Japanese....perhaps close to the Fat Japanese Sailor nib. Pilot is the Skinny one...so buy Pilot.

My eye is a Mark 1 Eyeball, calibrated to American widths of B&W TV...so Japanese are miss-marked one size too narrow....Gee their B is only an M...and sometimes a skinny M at that!!!!

 

......and in the '80-90's according to a chart I have, both Parker and Sheaffer was fatter than Pelikan.

Pelikan also had then a thinner nib set just for the 800.

On that chart Waterman was thinnest (it came out later Waterman also had two nib widths....one exactly matching Pelikan..............but in All Cases, the Pelikan EF was thinner than any of the others. :yikes: Even the Waterman................there use to be flame wars here with Waterman users claiming skinnier....to Pelikans change a nib answer.....then it came out Waterman had a fat 'Pelikan' wide nib set too. That is when the flame war died. B)

There was of course no Waterman user saying my Waterman is Pelikan Fat........when remembering Pelikan then was thinner than Parker and Sheaffer............which some good poster said is no longer true; but was once.

 

Back then at the time of the chart, Japanese pens were fringe and not in the mainstream.

They became popular by planning ahead, selling a very good nibbed pen under cost to get folks hooked on skinnier than marked nibs. :P

 

So you could look at semi-vintage regular flex from that Chart's era, which are thinner than modern....I'd stay away from semi-flex....in you might have a Heavy Hand, and then they would write wider, due to ease of tine bend.

 

You can either buy Pilot pens, or send your 'fat' 200's nib off to a nibmeister to be made Japanese skinny.  Or look for semi-vintage EEF in 200 or 400....the 400's of that time were 200's skinny.

 

Some day if you ever get into shading inks M is a good nib...thought F will do too, in a 200. Right now with extra skinny nibs, you are condemned to using vivid supersaturated inks....EF even "Pelikan" fat EF is not a nib for shading inks....IMO.


www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#16 Runnin_Ute

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:19

Hmm, that's very interesting - to suggest that Pelikan does indeed market finer nibs to the Japanese market. Very plausible in my opinion. Now if there could be confirmation from Peikan that such is indeed the case, and where can I get one? That would could come very close to solving all my issues with Pelikan nibs.  You've gotten my hopes up!


Remember this is just an impression and could have been I got a regular Pelikan M200 fine that was to the "skinny side" of normal. But I noticed it the first time I filled it. (got it about two years ago)

Brad
 
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#17 Calabria

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:30

Curiously, as someone who feels the gold nibs write slightly fatter than the steels, my finest writer is the gold F on my M250 Levenger, which writes like a Japanese EF. It's scratchy so I know the tines a misaligned but I think they're also pinched together, restricting the ink flow somewhat.

That's a keeper! 😃
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#18 chromantic

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 05:13

That's a keeper!

 

Yes, I don't at all mind the thinness of the line but I would like to have the scratchiness fixed. I'm worried that doing so might increase the flow.


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#19 Biber

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 15:01

Remember this is just an impression and could have been I got a regular Pelikan M200 fine that was to the "skinny side" of normal. But I noticed it the first time I filled it. (got it about two years ago)

 

I understand. I just thought it was an interesting possibility and entirely plausible.  

 

To answer Bo Bo's question, no I didn't start on A Japanese Pens, I just prefer thinner lines that can approach emulating vintage writing samples from the 30s. So, barring a degree of flex, a very thin line with the possibility for line variation, which to me is character. Modern western nibs just don't get that and Japanese will get me closer to the ball park.     


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#20 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 16:05

I get by just fine with vintage and semi-vintage German F nibs. I was more into wide nibs at first avoiding F's, ending up with them because they were on a pen model I wanted.

I have become use to them.

 

I have a Waterman 52 EEF-BBB....which I strive to take only to BB so I don't spring the nib. I have to sweat to write EEF, think to get EF........still a tad heavy handed, often enough will end up writing to an F. The Waterman that is underway should be only EF to BBB but a tad more flexi than the other.

 

I do have some (4-5) German 30's pens, and as far as I can see they are about the same width as the post war & 50-65.....and '82-97 eras. In I don't collect nails, as far as I can tell all my German pre war pens are semi-flex.

 

Before you send your nib to be made skinner, do ask what the nibmeister thinks is EEF.....in case you really want xxxF.


www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

Due to Mauricio's improved definition of Super-flex, I try not use the term Easy Full Flex, but fail...sigh.

 

Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.






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