Chinese Knock-Off Pens?

[Mech-for-i]

2 reasons.

SNOBBERY & FEAR.

 

...

 

& not to mention cockiness & arrogance

[JonSzanto]

Here's a question: a Wing Sung 3008 uses a nib that looks just like the nib on a Lamy Safari. No, wait, it doesn't just look like it, the dimensions are so exact that you can place a Lamy nib on the feed and it is a perfect fit, even in that unique style of nib attachment. The WS nib is not just 'like' the Lamy, it is *identical*. If that is not a copy, I don't know what is. One can go back and forth as to whether this was done for good or ill, but the rather unique design of the nib makes it clear that they simply copied the nib *precisely*.

Oh, and placed it on a piston filler body that is virtually identical to a TWSBI pen in virtually all design factors and dimensions.

 

Of course, due to the economics of the Chinese model, it sells for an order of magnitude (or more) less. It may even hold up as well, or better, than the pen it copies. Nonetheless, there is no original art in this conception, it is mere copying. Not homage, not inspired by, just out-and-out copying someone else's work. It is what it is.

[TSherbs]

 

& not to mention cockiness & arrogance

 

And a touch of prejudice?

 

chinachinachina

 

Here's my bias: I enjoy the idea of giving some of my money (for goods) to little vendors in places far from my home. I love the idea of a world economy where it is possible for someone on a small street in Asia to connect to someone like me in rural America and make an exchange. The closest brick-n-mortar to me is 75 miles, and the staff was uninviting and unfriendly and sold mostly quite expensive items--not my marketplace. The opening of these less expensive pens via the internet to folks like me is a boon to the rural, less-monied consumer. The copying issue is irrelevant to me. There is clearly no fraud being attempted. If TWSBI or Parker can't make a good enough pen (quality, materials) to justify the higher price, then they should try making something else. To me this is like a professional athlete complaining that other athletes copy one of his moves and he no longer is the only one with that winning combination. Well, deal with it. Play harder/better or lose.

Edited November 24, 2017 by TSherbs

[Ian the Jock]

Why does it need to be original.

 

If it does....(wait for it).... Buy the original.

Others who can only afford, or simply prefer to buy the cheaper, and possibly better alternative, like the person who buys the original, should be able to do so without having the finger pointed at them and continually harangued over such a supposedly unethical purchase.

Thinly veiled topics and threads having a go at Chinese pens and the purchasers of such are commonplace, and to be honest, are becoming dreadfully tiresome.

But then again, I suppose I can just take my own advice and not read them.....

 

Ian

[Pickwick]

Here's a question: a Wing Sung 3008 uses a nib that looks just like the nib on a Lamy Safari. No, wait, it doesn't just look like it, the dimensions are so exact that you can place a Lamy nib on the feed and it is a perfect fit, even in that unique style of nib attachment. The WS nib is not just 'like' the Lamy, it is *identical*. If that is not a copy, I don't know what is. One can go back and forth as to whether this was done for good or ill, but the rather unique design of the nib makes it clear that they simply copied the nib *precisely*.

 

Oh, and placed it on a piston filler body that is virtually identical to a TWSBI pen in virtually all design factors and dimensions.

 

Of course, due to the economics of the Chinese model, it sells for an order of magnitude (or more) less. It may even hold up as well, or better, than the pen it copies. Nonetheless, there is no original art in this conception, it is mere copying. Not homage, not inspired by, just out-and-out copying someone else's work. It is what it is.

 

When I was in the far east in the early 50s Yashica and Canon were making exact copies of German cameras, putting their own Brand names on them. Examining these Japanese cameras their precision engineering had the edge on their German counterparts. I recall that the German manufacturers made no significant objection at the time if at all. Chinese manufacturers making copies of well known brand pens also identify where and who is making these pens. It all comes down to choice, all the time there is a healthy market and individuals choose to buy these pens then any objections or outcry raised is of no avail.

[jekostas]

Here's a question: a Wing Sung 3008 uses a nib that looks just like the nib on a Lamy Safari. No, wait, it doesn't just look like it, the dimensions are so exact that you can place a Lamy nib on the feed and it is a perfect fit, even in that unique style of nib attachment. The WS nib is not just 'like' the Lamy, it is *identical*. If that is not a copy, I don't know what is. One can go back and forth as to whether this was done for good or ill, but the rather unique design of the nib makes it clear that they simply copied the nib *precisely*.

 

Oh, and placed it on a piston filler body that is virtually identical to a TWSBI pen in virtually all design factors and dimensions.

 

Of course, due to the economics of the Chinese model, it sells for an order of magnitude (or more) less. It may even hold up as well, or better, than the pen it copies. Nonetheless, there is no original art in this conception, it is mere copying. Not homage, not inspired by, just out-and-out copying someone else's work. It is what it is.

 

So what? Copying items, even exactly, happens in every industry in every country of the world. Do you go around posting about companies copying denim jeans or screwdrivers?

Edited November 24, 2017 by jekostas

[Wolverine1]

post deleted

Or should I say, I refuse to buy any pens made by the Chinese companies

Edited November 24, 2017 by Wolverine1

[jekostas]

 

To the latter, no, because I am not interested in jeans or screwdrivers and if I was, I wouldn't be posting about it in fountain pen forum. As to the former, that something happens often does not in any way make it acceptable. I don't find slavery or ignorance or dumping of toxic waste acceptable but I am aware it happens many places. In terms of what we are talking about - fountain pens - I value design and respect for other work. I get that people want things as cheaply as they can possibly get them, and therefore the Chinese industrial model suits their needs. It is not anti-Chinese to discuss this, it is simply looking at their model of production. They utilize this even in service of creating goods for non-Chinese vendors - Walmart, for instance. To ignore that there is not a human toll to the manner in which these prices are so remarkably low is... willful.

 

Everything in this life comes at a price.

 

Right, so you have no Chinese made products in your home?

[woleizihan]

Name another country that hosts a fountain pen industry that is currently producing this number of pens for this low a price, many of which are trading on the sheer fact that they look just like something else. It isn't an anti-China bias, it is merely acknowledging the reality of the business model that has been promoted.

 

Name a country that people are still using as many fountain pens as China. The fact really is, pen makers from any other countries are producing pens not as essential items but as collectibles, luxury items as well as hobbies for a small fraction of people while Chinese pen makers are still making pens as everyday item. That's why they are cheap. If you look at US pen makers when people in the US are still use fountain pens widely, it's no better than any Chinese pen makers today. Ever sharp copies Sheaffer. Sheaffer copies Parker.

[JonSzanto]

Right, so you have no Chinese made products in your home?

 

Poor supposition on your part. That would be "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Of course I have Chinese products, and I have products from around the world. I have Chinese fountain pens, since I started buying them when I returned to fountain pens about a decade ago. I don't have a *lot* of them but I am always interested in their pens, especially those that exhibit interesting designs or characteristics. I also occasionally purchase pens to see where they are going, such as the aforementioned Wing Sung 3008. I don't like to form opinions in a vacuum or out of ignorance, and the only way to avoid that is to be aware of these products. I *do* try to purchase in a mindful way and take as much information about that purchase in as possible; in doing so, I try to avoid purchases that would promote or encourage models or behaviors that I find... not good. I am under no illusion that anything I do as a single person will make any difference whatsoever except to myself. On the other hand, one can hardly expect actions in others that one won't take themself.

[woleizihan]

Here's a question: a Wing Sung 3008 uses a nib that looks just like the nib on a Lamy Safari. No, wait, it doesn't just look like it, the dimensions are so exact that you can place a Lamy nib on the feed and it is a perfect fit, even in that unique style of nib attachment. The WS nib is not just 'like' the Lamy, it is *identical*. If that is not a copy, I don't know what is. One can go back and forth as to whether this was done for good or ill, but the rather unique design of the nib makes it clear that they simply copied the nib *precisely*.

Oh, and placed it on a piston filler body that is virtually identical to a TWSBI pen in virtually all design factors and dimensions.

 

Of course, due to the economics of the Chinese model, it sells for an order of magnitude (or more) less. It may even hold up as well, or better, than the pen it copies. Nonetheless, there is no original art in this conception, it is mere copying. Not homage, not inspired by, just out-and-out copying someone else's work. It is what it is.

I also disagree that these Chinese pens are direct and simple copying. It is true that they copies the design. Design is important but execution and actual manufacturing are also extremely important. One very practical problem these Chinese pen makers have to solve is, how to make a $10 pen that looks like a $200 pen, that works well, and still could bring them profit. It is highly nontrivial problem.

[Ian the Jock]

Too much for me.

I thought this was a fountain pen forum, yet we're getting slavery, toxic waste dumping, and so much nonsense that some folks ar$es should be apologising for the $hit that's coming out of their mouths. (ok fingers, technically, before the pedants start)

 

So, In the words of Deborah Meaden..

 

For that reason... I'm out.

 

Ian

[woleizihan]

Um, that wasn't the point. Someone complained about why it is always about China. You are simply reinforcing my point: the topic comes up because no one else makes as many cheap, and everything else, pens. To speak about the Chinese pen industry simply reflects that and like so much in the world, that industry has negative aspects as well as positive ones.

My point is, the business model is probably the best suitable one for producing fountain pens as everyday item. Think of Walmart, or Target or CVS. They copy a lot of stuffs directly. We can view pens as hobby and don't mind spending thousands of dollars on them but it is in general not true for people who consider them as everyday items. We buy from companies who produce and price these pens as collectibles and these people buy from the pen makers who make them as everyday items. But the problem is, such targeting of China could not just come from the above difference in viewpoints because most of the people in the forum are both collectors and users.

[woleizihan]

Just think about one simple thing indicating that Chinese pen makers are not just copying. Almost all these pen makers make their own nibs as opposed to buying from Bock or Jowo. They have to make nibs probably under $1 and still perform reasonably. It's not easy and I highly doubt a lot of pen makers know how to do it.

 

And in fact, if we think of all the great inventions or products that improved people's lives in history, how to produce it more affordable so that everyone could enjoy it ends up being a much more complicated problem than designing something with a generous budget. And most the inventors we remember are not the one who originally invent something but people who improve the invention and make it available for everyone. So in some sense, if any pen maker can just take a $300 pen and make it for $5, sell it for $10 without sacrificing essential features, I would say, it's probably even more impressive work than designing.

Edited November 24, 2017 by woleizihan

[Larina_1248]

Thanks for the answers, everyone! I hadn't intended to spark a debate about the ethical constraints of buying/using/supporting these pens, simply because that issue is more complicated than I care to get into right now. But on the whole, your answers were all really interesting! I guess it really comes down to a matter of 'you get what you pay for'. For my own part, I love pens as a collection item, as well as something I use every day, but I have budgetary restraints on the pens I can buy, so if I can supplement my collection with some cheaper Chinese pens, especially if they retain at least a shred of originality, then that would certainly be a bonus.

[Bluey]

Some of the statements from the usual stuck-in-a-timewarp anti-China crew were usually heard around 40 years ago when they were then true, choosing to rely on lazy stereotypes rather than facts and reality and open mindedness.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Bluey

[TSherbs]

Thanks for the answers, everyone! I hadn't intended to spark a debate about the ethical constraints of buying/using/supporting these pens, simply because that issue is more complicated than I care to get into right now. But on the whole, your answers were all really interesting! I guess it really comes down to a matter of 'you get what you pay for'. For my own part, I love pens as a collection item, as well as something I use every day, but I have budgetary restraints on the pens I can buy, so if I can supplement my collection with some cheaper Chinese pens, especially if they retain at least a shred of originality, then that would certainly be a bonus.

 

Actually, I think that one gets great value from these knockoffs: Wing Sung 3008, and the Jinhao 992. I recommend them highly. There are as reliable and as smooth writing as pens you will pay $50 elsewhere.

[JonSzanto]

I would say, it's probably even more impressive work than designing.

 

Yes, I can see that you would. I happen to think differently, that coming up with a design and functionality all it's own and then turning it into a production item after testing with prototypes and eventually manufacturing at a profit is a more impressive feat. Nonetheless, we in differing ways, and we should just leave it at that.

[JonSzanto]

Has anyone here had enough experience with these Chinese pens to explain how this is possible? Setting aside the possible ethical questions of using obvious replica pens, are these worth buying?

 

 

Larina, since I added a fair amount of noise to the thread I feel compelled to answer you briefly. As to the second point, they are absolutely worth buying. There are many Chinese pens that write well and last long enough to make the small purchase price easily worthwhile. Many of these have no reason to not be among any other pens as far as the writing experience is concerned, and they seem to be getting better every year.

 

You ask how "this is possible", and that is the part that you'd actually rather not go into. So, that said, buy some of those pens and enjoy them. Many of them are inexpensive enough to give to friends to hook them into fountain pen use as well!

[JonSzanto]

I'm kinda sensitive to Larina's plea about how this has drifted from her original post, so I'm going to bow out. If anyone starts a new thread on the sub-topic, drop me a PM. For now, I'm out.